Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[JackieRabbit5]

whats the point of tier lists anyways?
why are we so concerned about knowing which characters tend to "do better in general" when in reality each char has their own strengths and weaknesses and its more a matter of understanding these than saying one char is better than another

i think Brawl is balanced enough that we don't have to worry about tiers so much

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Here it is...an attempt at a Brawl tier list. Here I'll rank each character from 1-37 in an as objective fashion as I can. There is no fanboy bias here!

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
ROB

High Tier:
Toon Link <--- no, he's really overrated and does not have many good matchups (according to the tls i meet in tournament, not the chart, i stopped checking that while ago) or have a good tournament record, he seemed good at launch, but he's fairly average now
Falco
Pit <-- refer to toon link
Diddy <-- refer to toon link
Mr.Game and Watch

Mid Tier:
Marth
Dedede <--- great tournament record, great matchups (again, from other players, not the chart), why is he not high tier?
Ice Climbers
Fox
Olimar
Wolf
Wario <-- great tournament record, even though he is largely underplayed, good matchups, again, why not high tier?
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario <-- the most popular character in the game, metaknight, has a walking jab infinite on him, that'll knock him down a notch
Ike <--- horrible recovery, and very slow attacks, not mid tier, low tier at best

Low Tier:
Luigi <-- great priority, recovery, damage, kill moves, and projectile and he's not mid tier?
Kirby <-- he's higher than this, he can rack up around 50 damage with a grab on some characters, and his dair to fsmash kills early and is easy to hit with
Mario <-- slightly higher than this, all around average usually warrants dead in the middle, though his recovery is poor, his edgegames makes up for it
Pikachu <-- little higher, he's got a few good cgs, and a good projectile and approach with his thunder jolt + qac, he does lack a reliable kill move
Ganondorf
Zelda <---great priority, and powerful, mid tier at least
DK <---- he ties snake in range and priority, kills quicker, and is loaded with super armor, why is he this low?
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
Peach <--- float is still good, can dair combo some characters to 50 or 70, definite lower mid tier

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi <---low tier at worst, he can abuse other peoples shields, and he's pretty heavy with good recovery, also has a nice chaingrab with grab aaa, running grab (infinites wario)
Sheik <--- sheik can combo, not bottom tier
Lucas <---a little better than this, he can get out of the infinite at certain percents, and even then only a few characters can do it, below ness, but above this
Jigglypuff
Link <--- great projectiles, can actually combo (combo combo, not brawl combo), but his recovery does hurt him, i'd say upper low
Bowser <--- he's slow, but he has good range, priority, and power, so i'd say upper part of low, not this bad
Ness<--- his only really bad matchups are pt and marth, a good ness is very hard tograb, he has a good amount of kill moves, and can rack up damage like no other, much higher than this, probably mid tier, he also has a better record than lucas
Samus
Captain Falcon

*The Pokemon Trainer factor:
The Pokemon Trainer is a very unique character that requires that use of all three characters with in most matches for the best results. Therefore, I have decided to NOT separate the 3 characters on my tier list. If I were to rate the effectiveness of the individual Pokemon from 1-3, this would be the list:

1-Charizard
2-Squirtle
3-Ivysaur

Anywho, I hope that this list was as informative as it could be and gave some people another perspective of the potential Brawl tier list.

its a bit off, it sounds like you were listening to the tier discussion right around release, and then didn't really pay as much attention past that

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

JackieRabbit5, I see what you mean, but I guess many people would just like to accomplish things like this. And also, I think its cus wtihout tier lists, there'd be much debating over friends and stuff about which chars are better. I think with tier lists, its something u can refer to.

 

[SaxDude93]

whats the point of tier lists anyways?
why are we so concerned about knowing which characters tend to "do better in general" when in reality each char has their own strengths and weaknesses and its more a matter of understanding these than saying one char is better than another

i think Brawl is balanced enough that we don't have to worry about tiers so much

How is Brawl more balanced if Snake and MK are winning every single tournament? (Slight exaggeration)

 

[H!volt23]

TOP TIER
Metaknight
Snake
Pit
Olimar
Marth
G&W
Toon Link

HIGH TIER
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Dedede
Zelda
Lucas
Falco

MID TIER
Zsamus
Peach
Fox
Ike
Pikachu
Kirby
Ness

LOW TIER
ROB
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Luigi
Lucario
Jiggilypuff
DK

LOWER TIER
Mario
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Shiek
Samus
Link

BOTTOM TIER
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

IMO of coarse

If anyone wishes to change some things by all means, but make a new chart in defence instead of just trashing my chart. We all have our own opinions.

 

[Veng]

Although does anyone know if Wario should be higher than Pikachu?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

There's quite a few things I'd like to change, again, but it seems fine because everyone has their own opinions.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Although does anyone know if Wario should be higher than Pikachu?

I think Wario is just a step or two ahead, but not much more

 

[itsthebigfoot]

wario is one of the best characters in the game (top 10 minimum), pikachus at least a full tier below him

 

[iMeeHow]

Why is Link considerd to be so mad he has great projectiles, goood smash attacks, Good air game and good with mind games the only thing that ruins him is his Recovery cause his scram isnt the greatestt for saving ureself

 

[DanGR]

wario is one of the best characters in the game (top 10 minimum), pikachus at least a full tier below him

not really. Pikachu is probably like two places under him.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Updated with Info from people

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch

Very High Tier:
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Zelda
King Dedede

High Tier:
Wolf
Wario
Pikachu
Pit
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Luigi

Mid Tier:
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Sonic
Fox
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Ness
Mario

Low Tier:
Peach
Bowser
lke
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Link

Bottom Tier:
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Too Cool For Tiers Tier:
Captain Falcon

 

[DanGR]

^er...zelda is overrated. Lower her to bottom of high tier. she has been doing awful at tourneys.

 

[Onxy]

dedede should not be lowered at all, his tourney results and matchups both prove that

pt should be low tier, his recovery on 2 of 3 of his pokemon is just bad, and charizard, while his recovery is decent, is easy to punish because it doesn't autosweet spot nearly as easily as other characters. also, if you know how to DI properly, ivysaur isn't very good

dk should be moved up a bit too, he has good matches with several of the top characters (don't bring up the chart, that things horrible), and has a very good tournament record

bowser should be top of low, he's got decent range, and priority, great ko power + damage, and his attacks aren't nearly as slow as you seem to think

EDIT: also, i'd move lucario down a bit, they just found out metaknight has a walking chaingrab on him similar to the marth one on ness and lucas

also, yoshi isn't that bad, low tier? yes, but the bottom of bottom? no way in hell, he's got too much priority and does too well at punishing shields

Yeah about the PT, he should be low 'cause of his 2/3 bad recovery. On top of that, we should throw Olimar low as well, and Falco too, 'cause of bad recovery. While Pit's recovery is decent, easily punished, so throw him low. The hell with it, lets throw everyone with bad recovery, low.

/end irrational comments.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Lol. Yes, recovery is important, so that's not such a bad idea (since a bad recovery could result in a very early death)

 

[Nestec]

*sigh* Okay, I think I'm finally ready to make an attempt at a tier.
In the long-run, we can't count on the match-up chart too much right now. So each tier is a bit of an estimate, as far as who falls in it. In other words, the ordering within tiers is simply random. I don't think we have enough info on match-ups yet to order them.

Top Tier: Metaknight, Snake

High Tier: Dedede, Falco, G&W, ROB, Marth, Pikachu, Zelda, Wario, DK

Upper Middle Tier: Diddy Kong, Luigi, Olimar, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Fox, Pit, Toon Link, Kirby, Lucario, ZSS

Lower Middle Tier: Mario, Sheik, Peach, Ike, Lucas, Ness,

Low Tier: Link, Samus, Bowser, Sonic, Yoshi, PT

Bottom Tier: Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

I think some people from UpperMid can be moved down into LowerMid. Not sure who though.

And I honestly believe that Ness (maybe Lucas too) will rise after we've perfected the match-up chart. But I guess the same could be said about many others...

 

[Fearmy]

*sigh* Okay, I think I'm finally ready to make an attempt at a tier.
In the long-run, we can't count on the match-up chart too much right now. So each tier is a bit of an estimate, as far as who falls in it. In other words, the ordering within tiers is simply random. I don't think we have enough info on match-ups yet to order them.

Top Tier: Metaknight, Snake

High Tier: Dedede, Falco, G&W, ROB, Marth, Pikachu, Zelda, Wario, DK

Upper Middle Tier: Diddy Kong, Luigi, Olimar, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Fox, Pit, Toon Link, Kirby, Lucario, ZSS

Lower Middle Tier: Mario, Sheik, Peach, Ike, Lucas, Ness,

Low Tier: Link, Samus, Bowser, Sonic, Yoshi, PT

Bottom Tier: Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

I think some people from UpperMid can be moved down into LowerMid. Not sure who though.

And I honestly believe that Ness (maybe Lucas too) will rise after we've perfected the match-up chart. But I guess the same could be said about many others...

whoa, PT should be high of low tier ATLEAST. well G&W should be moved up a tiny bit i think, Wario a tiny bit down as well as Zelda
And People if you are counting bad recoveries, look at zamus and olimar they are high as a Mountain and yet you rate PT low?, squirtle doesn't have that bad of a recovery, you can aim it like Roy's Up B from Melee, Ivysaur........, Charizard: well he does have glide, which is useless against vertical hits, but he covers that up by his 2 mid-air jumps, and with his aim-able Up-B. also lets look at Yoshi's Recovery, gimped by Foot stool, bowser? his recovery is good as charizard's glide. What about link? tsk tsk tsk

 

[St. Viers]

sonic prolly should be higher

inb4shadowlink/djbrowny

 

[Dpete]

Tier List

Why is Luigi getting all this love all of the sudden? Previously I've seem him mostly in the 4th tier, your "Lower Mid"

 

[Sonic527]

What Mario said in Brawl Taunts

"Silly Bowser, tiers are for queers" lol

IMO tiers don't matter at all its all dependent on the player.

 

[Veng]

Why is Luigi getting all this love all of the sudden? Previously I've seem him mostly in the 4th tier, your "Lower Mid"

Out of a 5 way list. Top, high, Mid, Low, Bottom, he would be around the Mid area. Hes better than mario almost in all aspects minus caping and edgegaurding. But hes still not that great. Bottom of Mid at most in my opinion.

Im wondering how Lucas got higher than Ness, they should be exactly the same if not very close to it.

 

[Browny]

Lucario <-- the most popular character in the game, metaknight, has a walking jab infinite on him, that'll knock him down a notch

no he doesnt. a lot of characters have jab-locks whic work on everyone, and theyre near impossible to pull off and require the opponent to simply not move at all once knocked into free fall, which never happens. Testing on lvl 1 CPU is never a good indication. its even more situational than laser locking, since at least you can do that from any range. the jab lock results in like, <15% damage while his ftilt does like ,12? so what do you think will happen, push the 0.00000000001% chance of geting around 15% free damage or a guaranteed 12.

oh and lol @ your reasoning

dedede, one of the most popular in the game, has a STANDING infitnite on DK, all he has to do is land 3 grabs for 3 0-deaths, but that doesnt affect DK's position?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I've seen Luigi been put in Mid/High Tier most of the time, not just recently.

And lol at 'Silly bowser, tiers are for queers'. Im gonna say that to my friends Not cus i dont like tiers, just cus its funny.

 

[danimalsyogurt]

Dedede's recovery can be gimped the same way yoshis can

people arent lowering him tiers for that, dont use it as a reasoning to move yoshi down any further

 

[Guilhe]

Up the Ganon!

Ganondorf for midtier plawks. He has more gimping power then either bowser or Poketrainer. Needs to bump him up.

Just the fact that Ganondorf isn't a Captain Falcon slower but stronger clone anymore, has made him a better character. In Melee, if you could get the moves from Capt. Falcon you would hardly find any surprises coming out from Ganon. Now with some moves that difer and are unique for him, you have to study him separetely from Captain Falcon if you want to beat him.

It may be just me, but Capt. Falcon hasn't changed much sice his debut in the Smash series. So Ganondorf is a welcome change

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

You can't really say that Yoshi's can be gimped and lower him for that. Just use double jump, it has super armor frames, so that shouldn't be a problem. you can also use a Super Double Jump. Or you could also just use Egg Throws first, and then use Double Jump to grab on, since Double Jump is less easily gimped. You shouldn't need to use Egg Throws both before and after [super] Double jump.

And DDD's could be gimped, but I mean all you have to do is practice and make sure that you'll be able to use the upward motion for super armor to safetly recover. At his peak, you cancel it and you should space it correctly so when he cancels it, there'll be little time for them to hit you while you're in free fall, and so you can grab onto the ledge safety.

And btw i don't think anyone used that as a reason to move Yoshi down further, unless you just posted that as a general post/ opinion

 

[Corigames]

Yes, because when D3 gets hit out of his recovery he doesn't get his back... oh wait.

Yoshi sucks because of the way his character is made. It is always different from everyone else in the game, and he is always bad from it.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Coreygames, could you explain your opinion of why you think 'Yoshi is bad beacause of the way his character is made'?

 

[Corigames]

He has always been made with a different shield. While this shield seems to stay out longer, it seems to lack normal powershielding and the ability to jump out of it. So, having the only different shield in the game is a hinderence.

He has no third jump. In melee, he got the side B move that could move him slightly forward along with the air dodge that could push him forward. Both of these were crucial in recovering now, but the fact remained that he had NO 3rd JUMP.

He also hasn't been really the king of priority or anything. His second jump, if I remember, always had juggernaut frames. So they really didn't change much in Brawl. He's never been fast, nor slow. He's about average in everything. He doesn't excel at spam, camping, fast aggro, evasion, or anything. He's just OK at everything. Plus, his recovery and shield suck. So it doesn't look like he has any noticeable pros aside from you can play him any style you want. The problem is, out of the other 35 characters, you are bound to find one that specifies to your style.

These key differences in how Yoshi plays has affected him greatly. Also, now in Brawl, they removed the ability to air dodge in a direction. This hurts him a little... a lot.

Yoshi just seems to be under par in every game.

 

[Grunt]

Yoshi just seems to be under par in every game.

64? oh god...the invincibility frames...

 

[Corigames]

64 was almost the definition of how a fighter game should be made. If every character is absolutely broken... it's balanced! They just forgot to break a few of the characters.

 

[St. Viers]

but corey, he can WD...in brawl... search for draconic reversal or something

also, in melee, he has a 5 frame powershield thing that if you reflected an attack, you could jump out of it and stuff. As it's easy to just powershield in brawl, which takes no time to drop shield, it isn't as bad as in melee,

 

[Corigames]

Because that's won him numerous tournaments so far... oh wait.

 

[St. Viers]

hey, they just figured it out. Give them time =P

 

[Corigames]

Well, it's just that, him being able to WD in Brawl isn't really going to help him much. Plus, even though I haven't seen the video, I doubt it that effective to use in a fight. The Pit guys have dredged themselves in with the idea that Wingdashing is somehow useful. The only thing it is good for is to show off. It is faster safer to just roll than to wingdash, and I doubt Draconic reverse BS is going to do a 180 on Yoshi.

 

[DanGR]

You're wrong, pit's wingdash has several uses.

 

[Corigames]

Well, I guess I'm wrong then, and that's that.

 

[DanGR]

I like you.

WingDashing

I don't think you've looked into this tech enough to fully describe a counter argument no offense. You describe it like it should be applied as a wave dash. Which is not how this tech should be used. It does work for spacing, but not nearly the same caliber as a wave dash.

There are other things that make this tech useful though. First off that wind push effect can mess up an aerial approach. Lets take a real situation. My friend who plays Mario is approaching me with nair. He's about to hit me. I can put my shield up and block the attack and then counterattack with f-smash out of shield. However, my friend can auto cancel his nair and jab combo me before i can get an f-smash in. Therefor I'm left having to block everything.

In this same situation. I can also Wingdash slightly backwards as his is at my head level. When i do this, the wind push effect keeps him in the air just a bit and leaves him hanging right there to be punished. I've now set myself up for a perfect opportunity to f-smash him. He can't avoid this and the wind push effect basically gave me a sort of wall to punish him.

Another way of using this is to use it as an approach against a projectile. For this example i will take pikachu. His full jump neutral b is very campy and effective. I could easily just try to mirror the electricity back at him. I don't know if anyone has played a pikachu that does this, but its really not effective and wont stop the pikachu. When you use a mirror shield, you cant follow up after the move. It basically just adding damage (assuming you hit the character) and it normally ends up with an even trade. The mirror shield will leave you vulnerable due to its lag if you pull it out expecting a projectile.(i just realized this was probably not the best hypothetical situation, but you get the idea)

In the same situation, I can wingdash to cancel out this projectile and follow up with a forward smash, or w/e else i want to really. Wingdashing is really good at approaching projectiles, even pits arrow is canceled out with a wing dash. Basically its an effective way to close space while going through a projectile. This does take some timing though, about the same timing as a powershield, maybe with a few extra frames. Powershielding works, but you don't close that gap and cant punish fast enough. With wingdashing you can actually hit your opponent before they get out of their lag time from the projectile.

Finally, wingdashing prevents you from getting grabbed. I find this most helpful against long ranged grabs such as link, or ice climbers (they can combo you up to 70% with a grab you you gotta be cautious). Taking into consideration that you can do this move out of a shield, you can avoid being grabbed if you can predict it right (big if i know..). However there is also times when its obvious that your opponent wants to shield grab you, take that into considerations and you can do some pretty cool stuffs. If your opponent dodges, most the time you can get the down smash off as they come out of the dodge, if they don't dodge early enough, then you push them out of range with wing push.

 

[Corigames]

I like you.

I never get that.

Anyway... wingdashing really shouldn't fit into any good Pit's strategy. In the Mario situation, Mario should not be able to get into the air without taking 12-15 arrows to the body. Then, even if he does successfully approach, a good shield grab against his Nair would have done way better than any other option he threw out there, including the Wingdash. Plus, what if Pit was against the edge in that situation? He would have wingdashed off the edge and been in a lot of trouble. He could have rolled towards Mario and been behind him, as Pit's roll is Ok. Or he could have Down B shielded the attack, reversed him, done some jabs into a f-smash. All of those are plausible.

The situation with the Pikachu really through me off. Why not just sit back and reflect every single projectile? All that does is put damage on Pika and none on you! Problems... there is one? Plus, in between reflecting his stuff, you can most certainly barrage him with arrows. Not hard. Or you can just shoot him AND his projectile! It's not that hard. Then, when he eventually gets fed up with doing that, revert to the Mario scenario.

Lastly, with long grabs, you just have to watch your spacing. If they are close enough to grab you with Pit, you better have them in a grab already or be in the position to run away. Spot dodges, rolling away OR towards them would throw it off OR just flat out hitting them with something. Any of those strategies are legit. Plus, normal grabs can still get you even if you are wingdashing. Plus, you run into the same problem as before if you try to wingdash and you are too close to the edge.

Is it completely impractical? No. I think that someone out there can put it to good use, but I just don't see it as being that one thing that defines Pit. No one is going to say something equivalent to, "Wow, that wingdashing really caught me off guard." Plus, the videos where he "effectively" uses it on youtube just aren't reasonable. He barely avoids getting hit by a few close attacks that could have been dodged better in other ways. It may just be my style/opinion, but wingdashing just isn't important to the Pit game.

 

[DanGR]

I respect your opinion, and you've made some good arguements, but it does have it's uses, even if it's the best option in a very limited number situations. It doesn't define pit, but it's good for mind games, spacing, and throwing off attacks. It varies Pit's gameplay, and makes him less predictable.It also has a strange psychological effect on an opponent. People aren't sure how to react to something this bizarre right now.