Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[-Ran]

I just got into this topic and I have not seen all the 500 pages of discussion. However, from what I have played from SSBB until now, the game has proven to be very nicely balanced. I belive in the existence of tiers in all fighting games as I, being and student of game design, know how it is very hard to even things out with so much variables. But being a Ike player myself (Pit was my main before him), I have exeperimented both fast and slow characters and these two groups seemed both capable in their own way. Hell, even Ganondorf is playable now!

There's a reason there are over 500 pages of discussion. Certain characters are just flat out better.

 

[Grunt]

I just got into this topic and I have not seen all the 500 pages of discussion. However, from what I have played from SSBB until now, the game has proven to be very nicely balanced. I belive in the existence of tiers in all fighting games as I, being and student of game design, know how it is very hard to even things out with so much variables. But being a Ike player myself (Pit was my main before him), I have exeperimented both fast and slow characters and these two groups seemed both capable in their own way. Hell, even Ganondorf is playable now!

Ur kidding right?
Ganon had WAAAAAAAAAY more of a chance in melee than he ever did in Brawl.

 

[gallax]

Well, I thought hizzlum really had something going with his tier list, gaining nice contributions from everyone. I guess he just gave up though, lol. So I'm going to create my own tier list heavily influenced by his.

"S" Tier:
Snake
MK

"A" Tier:
G&W
Marth
Falco
ROB
DDD

"B" Tier:
Wario
Pikachu
Lucario
Wolf
Pit
DK
Toon Link

"C" Tier:
Kirby
IC's
Olimar
Fox
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Lucas
ZSS

"D" Tier:
Sonic
Mario
Ike
Ness
Luigi
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Sheik
Samus
Bowser

"F" Tier:
Link
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon


I'm not very confident in my lower tiers, especially with the gaps between tiers.

I like this tier list. I would make a few changes though. This is just my opinion though.

"S" tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

"A" tier:
Marth
DDD
G&W
Falco
ROB

"B"tier:
Toon Link
Pikachu
Pit
Wolf
DK
Lucas
Wario

"C" Tier:
Kirby
IC's
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Diddy Kong
ZSS
Lucario

"D" Tier:
Ike
Ness
Link
Luigi
Mario
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Bowser
Samus

"F" Tier:
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Yoshi

Remember that this is just my opinion so please don't rip my head off. This is just meant for discussion and to see if people would agree(mostly) with what i think.

 

[Corigames]

Is it truly necessary to quote someone else's entire tier list and post your own all in one post?

Save some internet trees and condense your posts!

 

[Guilhe]

Ok, and this changes things how?

That's something pretty reasonable to say in the "brawl is more balanced then melee" thread, but it doesn't really discuss the content of the tiers at all, besides implying that ganondorf is bottom tier, or whether they should exist for that matter.

It just suggests that the characters are relatively close in power.

I didn’t mean to say that Ganondorf is bottom tier, and yeah, maybe my post didn’t add anything to the topic. I was just voicing my opinion.

 

[gallax]

Is it truly necessary to quote someone else's entire tier list and post your own all in one post?

Save some internet trees and condense your posts!

I just wanted to make it easier for people to see what i changed. instead of going back to his and going back to mine and doing it again. it's just for convenience. plus, why do you care?

 

[Corigames]

More scrolling, waste of space, and annoying. Why don't you?

 

[twelvenine]

ok, i have a n00b question. when reading a tier list, does the order matter within a subcategory? so if it says

high tier:
sonic
captain falcon
bowser
jigglypuff

would that mean that sonic ranks higher than CF or are they all equal within that tier?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Is it truly necessary to quote someone else's entire tier list and post your own all in one post?

Save some internet trees and condense your posts!

Oh ****....INTERNET TREES EXIST?

 

[gallax]

More scrolling, waste of space, and annoying. Why don't you?

ok. no need to get mad at this. im sorry if this is annoying. i just thought it would be easier for people to compare. my bad dude.

 

[Fogo]

Hey guys, come check out the waddle thread and help me compile some knowledge on them for everybody!

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176691

you know you wanna! ^_^

 

[Corigames]

NO. Not really. I don't want to help the opposition.

 

[gallax]

Hey guys, come check out the waddle thread and help me compile some knowledge on them for everybody!

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176691

you know you wanna! ^_^

sorry dude. im not really a DDD fan so i dont know all the technical stuff about the waddle's other than tilting the stick can influence their flights.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh ****....INTERNET TREES EXIST?

Well, actually they do...

They have to at least be using a k-ary tree or a b-tree as the primary data structure with individual threads probably being trees on their own, and individual posts being nodes within the tree, and the nodes themselves probably are trees containing the html and all that interesting stuff.

Yes, I do program, how did you know?


So yes, INTERNET TREES DO EXIST! Preach the good word!

Is it truly necessary to quote someone else's entire tier list and post your own all in one post?

Save some internet trees and condense your posts!

Actually, he's making unnecessary internet trees...

I didn’t mean to say that Ganondorf is bottom tier, and yeah, maybe my post didn’t add anything to the topic. I was just voicing my opinion.

Well, baring something amazing change (like Sliq succeeding in selling his soul for the ability to chain murder choke) he is bottom tier.

My point however, was that you said that even Ganondorf can do something, which suggests that he's the lowest of the bunch, and even he is competitive.

 

[Nestec]

The way I see it, a character can have over a million ATs, but none of it means anything if its applications are crap. I'm assuming this is why tournament results are important for tiers...?

Yeah, Yoshi definitely has a chance to rise in the tiers. It's all gonna depend on how well Yoshi mains start implementing this stuff, and how it helps them in the long-run.

I think Ness (and maybe others) is in a similar situation; right now, several Ness mains (notably EB360) are discovering more and more useful techniques for Ness' game. However, Ness will stay in his current ranking (Low Tier?) until Ness mains can effectively implement the ATs to win tournaments...

>__<
D****t, I really need to find a way to get into some big tournaments...

 

[smashbot226]

Nah, Ness is Mid, or even Low-High, Tier.

Yoshi isn't getting above Low, sadly. Too slow or weak to create a good offense or defense.

The only advantages he's got are his super second jump and his heavyweight.

 

[Nestec]

Too slow? As in, start-up lag or ending-lag?

I'm pretty sure most of Yoshi's best moves are actually quick...nair, bair, uair, just to name his fast+useful aerials.

 

[xcapablancax]

are there any updates on Japans tier list? can someone post japans main tier list?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yoshi isn't getting above Low, sadly. Too slow or weak to create a good offense or defense.

The only advantages he's got are his super second jump and his heavyweight.

Yoshi's side b sux too. it is super hard to control, and way too easy to see coming.

This is kind of irrelevant, but once me and my friend teamed up against Yoshi and wolf (cpu) on final destination, and then i picked up a poke ball and i think it was Moltres, and it made a wall of fire on one side of the screen, so i knocked wolf into the fire, and he then flew back, and my friend knocked him off of the side, right as Yoshi started a side b, and then even though him and wolf were on the same team, he ran into wolf who was already off the screen, and they both fell and lost their last lives.

man I was laughing for like 5 minutes after that

 

[SaxDude93]

Because of the Deathgrab, it's impossible for Ness to get out of mid tier. Ness is too easily counterpicked and won't win that many tournaments because of that fact.

 

[Served]

Because of the Deathgrab, it's impossible for Ness to get out of mid tier. Ness is too easily counterpicked and won't win that many tournaments because of that fact.

Because of that he wont win any tournies at all, and he should be placed in bottom tier.

 

[Browny]

well the same could be said about DK, dedede has a deathgrab on him, but that hasnt stopped DK winning?

 

[Shaeman111]

Low tier =/
he still has advantages over other characters.
and every1 can beat link *cries* and sometimes samus.
but what's sad is how huge the gap is from top tier to bottom
tourneys r gona end up banning at least 3 characters >_>

 

[Served]

well the same could be said about DK, dedede has a deathgrab on him, but that hasnt stopped DK winning?

I didnt know that, but it should have stopped him from winning. I know I sure as hell with money on the line would counterpick and kick his ***. And anyone who dosnt in a tournment is stupid.

 

[Shaeman111]

A lot of tourneys DDD is banned in =/
how are people dealing with DEDEDE without banning him??
[not a smart a** question, like, seriously idk!!]

 

[SaxDude93]

well the same could be said about DK, dedede has a deathgrab on him, but that hasnt stopped DK winning?

Well DK counters Snake and MK, there are more good Snake's and MK's, and you have to be perfect with the chaingrab on DK. I'm betting most Snake/MK players aren't.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

A lot of tourneys DDD is banned in =/
how are people dealing with DEDEDE without banning him??
[not a smart a** question, like, seriously idk!!]

Any TO outright banning a character is just stupid and should not have players attending those tournaments. DDD is far from Broken, he can't infinite everyone, only 1, the rest are psuedo-infinites.

I didnt know that, but it should have stopped him from winning. I know I sure as hell with money on the line would counterpick and kick his ***. And anyone who dosnt in a tournment is stupid.

Sadly, it's not nearly as easy as one would think. Just picking a character that has a deathgrab on your opponent isn't going to help you much at all, espiacially if you rarely play as said character. You would lose, and then your opponent would go onto another character

Because of that he wont win any tournies at all, and he should be placed in bottom tier.

No, that is just straight wrong.

So you're saying the Bottom Tier would have....
Mario
Luigi
Ness
Lucas
DK
Bowser
DDD (He can do it to himself >_>)?

You must be crazy.

 

[Nestec]

Eh? Ness will pretty much only suffer Deathgrab from Charizard and Marth; neither of those two have been appearing frequently in tournaments.

Not to mention how easy it should be for Ness to avoid getting grabbed. Not saying it won't happen, just not likely, considering the fact that Ness can decently trouble Marth with PKF and PKT without even having to get close.

 

[Deleted member]

Nah, Ness is Mid, or even Low-High, Tier.

Yoshi isn't getting above Low, sadly. Too slow or weak to create a good offense or defense.

The only advantages he's got are his super second jump and his heavyweight.

Remember how we were talking about how we dont like people talkin about yoshi who dont know anything about him. I sure hope u werent serious. He is the fastest aerial character in the game, and on the ground hes faster than toon link. His moves arent slow either. Weak i dont know what u mean. Hes not good at killing, but as far as damage goes, his bair does 16%, his dair does 35 total, and using it on a grounded opponent either turns thei shield into a tiny buble or does over 20% if they dont shield.

 

[chckn]

Eh? Ness will pretty much only suffer Deathgrab from Charizard and Marth; neither of those two have been appearing frequently in tournaments.

Not to mention how easy it should be for Ness to avoid getting grabbed. Not saying it won't happen, just not likely, considering the fact that Ness can decently trouble Marth with PKF and PKT without even having to get close.

Did you really just say that Marth has not been apearing much at tourneys? wtfff

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Did you really just say that Marth has not been apearing much at tourneys? wtfff

I just read that part.



Well it really depends on the region. You'd be hard pressed to find Warios outside of the West coast, you'll see thousands of Snakes on the East coast, espiacially in the New England area.


Now I'm not sure what the situation is on Marth, but I wouldn;t be all too surprised if he lived in a region without too many Marths.

 

[Nestec]

Well, I was just basing that off of the Tournament Rankings chart. X__x

He's in B-Rank, but I guess that's not necessarily considered "not too often".

 

[SaxDude93]

Lets talk about Ganondorf. Why? Because he's Ganondorf The more Sliq I see, the more I think he isn't completely suck. Now, he's probably not going to be mid tier like he was in Melee, but mid-low tier? What do you think?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's appearances have been dying down.

I expect this trend to continue.

 

[hizzlum]

low tier
Sonic
Shiek
Peach
Ness
Ike
Luigi
Link
Mario
(Squirtle)
(Charizard) }PT
(Ivysuar)
Samus
Bowser
any suggestions on change of placement?
And to EL, since Ankoku keeps on updateing that chart and not leaving the spring tourney results into the chart and focusing more on summer tournies, it shows the poor placement marth has been having in recent tournaments, I agree with you that he may fall down into lower tiers, but remeber only phanna(a melee pro who appeared at a good amount of tournies) is the only high class pro playing as marth, I guess marth's popularity is sinking down and thus more difficult to see his full potencial. Remeber that ken is maining marth and will soon enter tournies for brawl, which could change his tournament placing.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

low tier
Sonic
Shiek
Peach
Ness
Ike
Luigi
Link
Mario
(Squirtle)
(Charizard) }PT
(Ivysuar)
Samus
Bowser
any suggestions on change of placement?

How about the fact that Sheik, Ike, Luigi and Ness aren't low tier?

 

[Yuna-Maria]

How about the fact that Sheik, Ike, Luigi and Ness aren't low tier?

Ike is. The rest aren't.

 

[Foxy_Marth]

Eh? Ness will pretty much only suffer Deathgrab from Charizard and Marth; neither of those two have been appearing frequently in tournaments.

Not to mention how easy it should be for Ness to avoid getting grabbed. Not saying it won't happen, just not likely, considering the fact that Ness can decently trouble Marth with PKF and PKT without even having to get close.

That doesnt matter, Marth was one of Ness' toughest matchups before the deathgrab.

Even though its always been thar

 

[philbobjoe]

I think the reason people have stopped using Marth as much is because they are finally getting used to other characters. Before they were just using him because he is similar to Melee's Marth. I agree that his popularity will probably continue to fall.

 

[hizzlum]

How about the fact that Sheik, Ike, Luigi and Ness aren't low tier?

I use all the evidence of smashboards from tournament rankings to going to characters match-up threads to put them into the correct placement. Your statement gives no evidence of why those characters are middle tier and thus your debate is flawed. sheikluigi and ness has not done well in tournies nad do not have good match-ups as I went to all there thread to see they have disadvantages against 3/4 -5/8 of the cast. Ike just has bad match-ups and sub par potencial.And ness has hard counters that give his opponent(marth, charizard and to an extent G&W) an easy win, a gimpable recovery, his only outstanding trait is his bthrow=killthrow but that doesent win tournies.

If you give evidence, I will reconsider, it's as simple as that.

Please help be commenting on the chart so i can make a more accurate list of the metagame.

The five best tiers of brawl:

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
Pit
TL
Olimar

Middle Tier(Not rare to see in tournaments who have average match-ups and place worse than the upper tier in tournaments)
Kirby
IC's
Zelda
Fox
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSS

Low tier(A subdivision of middle that typically will not place well in tournaments and has overall bad match-ups)
Sonic
Shiek
Peach
Ness
Ike
Luigi
Link
Mario
(Squirtle)
(Charizard) }PT
(Ivysuar)
Samus
Bowser
Others could be added to the low tier (i.e , yoshi,jiggs, ganon)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to bottom beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly below par. Please help with my low tier and comment if I should change some of the higher tier placements.

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings,combo videos for character potencial, constructive critizism,AT's and the matchup threads on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
Lol @saxdude93 i changed ike placement and I spaced lol