Top Tier
Snake, Metaknight
Top tier seems fairly undisputed. ---> **** right it is
Very High tier
Mr Game and Watch
Marth I wonder, should Marth really be above Falco here? I'd like to see what you guys think. <-Yes. at least I think so Agreed.
Falco - Switch ROB and Falco, ROB has better match-ups and is just better overall
R.O.B.
This part of High tier seems undisputed also. Each of them have amazing matchups and do fairly well in tournaments. Not to mention they are just naturally good characters.
Disputed Very High and High tier
Toon Link- has a lot of good matchups, good character overall and does alright in tournaments
Pit – Has more good matchups than toon link but also more bad ones. Places better than Toon link in tournaments. Just a question--this means he has less neutral, or the bad/bad matchups are more severe? (Pit has 24 good matchups, 9 neutral, and 5 bad ones) He has more neutral matchups and more bad ones than toonlink)<-thanks I wouldn't put TOO much faith in IvanEva's list. True, while it's an overall good source of information, it's far from perfect and has quite a bit of flaws
Zelda – Has a lot of good matchups and is generally considered a great character. However she hasn’t done well at tournaments at all. In fact she is ranked 31. Low tier and Bottom tier house those that Rank under 30. Maybe Zelda does deserve only high tier. (blue for hedgedawg) She only doesn't place well in tourneys because she's innexplicably unpopular. I know I main her, so I'm biased, but she has a huge amount of good matchups, and very few bad ones. I think that if she gets a strong enough backing, she'll start winning tourneys, but as it stands, she's just too underrepresented to pull in the wins.) That seems to be changing though, she's slowly rising, and I think the Weekly disscussion topic will be on Zelda next, so we'll see what the SBR thinks about her.
Olimar- Has a lot of good matchups, ranks just slightly below Toon Link in Tournaments. He is a great character except when it comes to being off the stage. The recovery wouldn't be such a big issue if Pikman wasn't so light. Basically, anyone who can get to the edge before he's within tether range can beat him hands down. Matchups really shouldn't be this high imo. If they ever discover an AT that can quickly grab the edge, Olimar will REALLY dislike it, if it's practical enough, it may well drop him, along with other tethers. Actually you can already grab the edge easily. Run off the edge then push the control stick back towards the edge. Any character can do it some better than others. Olimar's current tier spot already has this accounted for. Even M2K stated that Olimar was top tier initially. He has fallen a few places with the discovery of his recovery but that isn't enough to keep him out of the higher part of the tier list. I personally think that since he's so easy to edgeguard & he's light, he should just be high tier. I feel he just barely misses very high tier because of that. High Tier seems about right to me
Wolf- If we weighted the matchups then olimar would just barely top Wolf. However they are so incredibly close. Wolf also ranks higher in tournaments than all those previously mentioned. His recovery isn’t that great either. He is generally considered a good character also. his recovery isn't as bad as people think--just don't try to grab the edge from above ^_^ Wolf's recovery doesn't auto sweetspot the edge not to mention the start up on up b and the ending lag on side b I consider wolf to be a decent charcter, but I've just never been particularly threatened by him. I think most of his good matchups fall in lower tiers and also most of his kill moves are also used as damage building moves leading to heavy move decay. The biggest problem I have with Wolf is that his weight combined with his fast-falling make him one of the most easily comboed characters in the game. I can see him going down from here, because his ability to be comboed ruins so many matchups. Overall, I think Wolf has one of the best overall movesets in the game, but it really is a split opinion at this point if He's going to stay this high or slightly drop due to some saying he's becoming....predictable
These characters are mixed in Very High and High tier. They don’t quite make Very High yet they seem too good for just High tier.
High
Wario- Has good bit of good matchups and some bad. I can’t ignore the fact that he ranks 4th in tournaments though. Aside from Snake, Wario easily has some of the best Mindgames potential in the Metagame so far
Pikachu-When weighted pikachu has the same matchup ranking as Wario. Yet places lower in tournaments. Pikachu should move above Wario. Even though he places lower in tournaments, he has a direct matchup advantage against Wario. He's is slightly unpopular, which could account for him placing lower than Wario. I personally feel he might move up to very high tier if people tap into the potential of QAC.
Ice Climbers-Has the same matchup ranking as Wario and Pikachu yet doesn’t do nearly as well as those two in tournaments. I think the reason that they haven't placed so well so far is because they take quite awhile to master, and with restricitions being placed on their grabs (Only in the Houston area so far, and it's only a 3 grab limit that Hylian has proven can be made into a near death combo anyway. With potential like that, they're certain to rise soon If their chaingrab gets restriced enough, they may well drop. It's not all they have, but it's a good part of it. I doubt it will be, unlike DDD's grab for the most part it requires a great amount of skill, and I'm sure the SBR would decide to keep it legal, they never really did ban wobbling is Melee didn't they, and The IC's have horible grab range to start with this might be just a little bit high for them then, since, I mean, other than the CG, what's keeping them so high? and aren't there some chars (zelda, Marth, MK, Olimar) that they are going to have a REALLY hard time getting close enough to CG? They actually have trouble getting close to a lot of characters. Their grab range is short & because their very dependant on their chaingrabs, that really hurts them. Once people learn to space better, I think they'll move down. If their chaingrabs keep getting banned, they might even drop to low tier.
King Dedede- He just doesn’t have the matchups that those above him have. In fact he has more bad then good. Again I can’t ignore how well he does at tournaments. Not to mention his amazing chaingrab skills. <-he is the paragdim of brawl characters, campy and hard to kill >_< He's good, but he has way too many bad matchups to be high tier. his tourney standings are partially due to popularity and partially to an accelerated metagame development. If he's high tier, I'd make sure he was the bottom of the high tier. Concerning the matchups issue, isn't what your saying here slightly contradictory considering what you said about Pit? I agree with Hedgedawg here. His good matchups are mainly against middle tier characters & below. Most of the high tier characters can deal with him pretty easily. He should probably be at the bottom of high at best.
Kirby – Matchup wise Kirby does better than Dedede. In fact he actually has a favorable matchup against Dedede. However Kirby just doesn’t have good matchups versus the upper tier characters. Seems a little high to me... maybe top of mid tier? I always though lucas and luigi were better I dunno, as my main I might be biased for Kirby but I think he belongs right around here, bottom of high tier at worst. His only real problem is that most characters above him have advantageous matchups against him. The fact that DK matches up well against higher tiers is the only reason people look at him so highly... why shouldn't the opposite apply to Kirby? His bad matchups in the first three tiers are Pikachu, Olimar, Zelda, Toon Link, Marth, ROB, G-Dub, MK, and Snake. Favorable matchups are Dedede, Wolf, Falco, Fox and Pit. Neutral is Wario, Diddy and the IC's. So it's a 9-5-3 ratio.This is based off personal experience, not the matchup thread, by the way.
Diddy Kong- Maybe not as good as we thought but still a decent character. He has some favorable matchups against the upper tiers. He places low in tournaments though. He still has crazy banana tactics.
Fox- Maybe even borderline mid tier. However I think he just makes high. He has more bad matchups then good and doesn’t seem to fair well against those above him.
This is the one I have the biggest problem with. He still has the huge melee following, but is completely underwhelming. Both his space animal friends completely outshine him and he has a lot of bad matchups... plus he's an easy kill at a light weight. Lucario, DK, and even ZSS definitely outperform this guy. Not sure I would say ZSS, but I think the other two do as well Lucario seems highly likely to overtake Fox but ZSS and DK seem like at this time they may be a stretch. However I can't deny that those three are moving up.
I don’t think my list for high will be generally approved by the populous. Most characters in this group are ranked above 20 except the oddball Diddy. Dedede and Fox are the only ones to have more bad then good matchups.
Middle Tier
Lucario- He matches up with some of the higher tier characters. He is ranked 20th when it comes to tournaments. He is a pretty cool character to top it off.
Zero Suit Samus- I am surprised most don’t rank her higher. She seems like she could fit into even High tier. She matches up decently with the upper tier characters and has more good matchups then bad.<-she'll rise, mark my words -viers *Marks viers' words* She's just like Zelda. Once more people look into her, she'll end up somewhere in high tier.
Lucas- He gives a couple of higher tier characters a handful and just barely has more good matchups then bad.
Donkey Kong- He may be even higher than this. From what I have heard his range gives quite a few characters some problems. He doesn’t have as good of matchups as those above him. However, For a mid tier character he has a great tournament ranking. He currently ranks 11th. When everyone else ranks in the 20’s this is noticeable.
Ness- Trying to hold onto a good tier spot after the whole chain grab incident. I really don't think Ness and Lucas are this close in skill... maybe not a full tier difference, but not a 1 charcater difference either. Luigi, for one, is better. I agree Luigi and Mario may overtake Ness.
Luigi- He gives a couple of upper tier characters some trouble. He lacks a lot of good matchus though. In terms of matchup ranking he is just below Ness.
Mario- Although buffed from Melee he still isn’t up to caliber with the rest of the cast. He has hardly any good matchups, but he is pretty neutral with almost all of the cast.
Bowser- I am sorry bowser fans, but it really pains me just to put him here. His matchups are so bad. Almost that of bottom tier characters. I just his ftilt and Bowsercide save him though. If he's almost bad enough to be bottom tier, then why bump him all the way up to mid and skip low entirely? Put him at the top of low. He's a good character, but he just lacks good matchups.
This tier was tricky to do since some characters looked like they felt more at place in low tier or bottom tier. Interesting to note, all but DK rank in the 20’s when it comes to tournaments. <-he should be in the bottom of high, for said reasons ^_^
Low
Sheik- She has the best matchups of all of them. In fact matchup wise, she seems to fit into mid tier. Her tournament ranking also seems well suited for mid tier. Switch with bowser then <- Agreed
Peach- She has a pretty good tournament ranking but her matchups aren’t that great.
Pokemon Trainer- I didn’t bother with him. So I just put him here. I did note that he has the second worse tournament ranking. I think his matchups merit a slightly better spot... but it'll take time for him to rise in the tourney rankings
Ike- Has pretty good tournament record and comparatively not too bad of matchups.
Sonic – Has slightly better matchups then Ike but does a good bit worse at tournaments.
Yoshi- Matchups are bad and tournament ranking is the worst. Yoshi seems well suited for even bottom tier. I'd put him there, he has nothing to back him up.... terrible matchups, and awful tourney rankings... he's the epitome of bottom tier. In my opinion he is but where at. I am somewhat tempted to put him just below Jigglypuff but the little guy has some tricks he can do that may warrant him being further up.
This tier must be hard. All that flak from Sonic, Ike, and Pokemon trainer mainers who think their character is good. Well at least the Ike players have hope since he does alright at tournaments. I must note though that some characters do well in tournaments while others do awful. This group has no real pattern like middle tier.
Bottom Tier
Link- Has the best Matchups of bottom tier. In fact he has matchups that could be considered good for even low tier. I think link is better than his ranking suggests, but he'll stey there becasue he's so outclassed by Toon Link I agree with you. I am wondering though if Link may be able to take Yoshi's spot. Problem is I REALLY don't think he'll be winning many tournies because... well... people who could main him main toon link instead.
Samus- Has worse matchups then link but maybe low tier worthy. She could probably move up a little. Def above Link, much better overall
Jigglypuff, Gannondorf
Captain Falcon- Why Sakurai, Why? "If I nerf the knee and make falcon punch better then Captain Falcon should stay pretty much in the same spot regardless of the new physics and hitstun."-Sakurai in all his wisdom.
Someone stated that we should have a little starting place. This is the SFR's old discussion tier it is no longer needed and outdated but I think it would still make a good starting spot. Sorry Viers I tried to cut it down where I could.
