Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Yoshi Kirishima]

and kiwikomix, the people in the Yoshi clan i'm in (yoshi tribe from BC) know that Yoshi's aerial game is at least good especially with his infinite jump (like i said in the post earlier).

and yes, doc and mario were only a couple spots away about. i think there was only 1 char in between them.

 

[!Boom!]

Yoshi has a great aerial game and now has a better ground game because of his new "wavedash," giving him more spacing and mind games.

 

[bigman40]

Lol i'm surpised that the argument for Yoshi is back up again. People are too opinionated here so I stopped trying to give Yoshi a fair placement.

 

[pidgey14]

I may as well be the same as bigman. I have attempted before and the results are just the same. Let them think what they want to think. No point in trying to prove them, they'll ignore it.

 

[Frown]

I really have NO idea what tier Yoshi will be.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Yoshi is way better than people credit him for.
People are stupid.
Dinosaurs aren't.
ROAR.

 

[pidgey14]

lol @ your post, escalator. That somehow made me lol. maybe because it was just something random in a discusion, I dunno.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Lol that post was just funny (im not a yoshi hater, in case if you read this post wrong)

 

[pidgey14]

Yes, Pink, I know you are not a Yoshi hater right now that's done, back to discussion

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Lol. so, I present to you... a short Yoshi presentation.

Just SOME (emphasis on SOME for those who are ignorant and/or don't read everything) good points:

Yoshi has...
1. Wavedash, AKA dragonic reverse (NOT crawl dash, and not Egg Toss Slide)
2. INFINITE jump, which he can use to INCREASE vertical height
3. SUPER jump, which is him making his Double Jump even higher.
4. Chaingrabs AND projectiles, which both seem very important in Brawl, like how speed was very important in Melee.
5. Many ATs, like ETS, Quick Pivot Grab, and more.
6. A Fair as a spike, and Dair also as a spike, although may be not as powerful as some spikes. But, the Dair is quick too, so I'd consider it good.

Yoshi doesn't have...
1. A fast dodge roll
2. Can't jump out of shield (i dont see this as a too important thing)
3. I don't know. I guess he doesn't really have both a very quick and very strong attack like some (I guess his Nair would count though)
4. Little lag after a grab. (quick pivot grab could help prevent this tho)

May be more on this later if people care to talk about Yoshi

 

[Empy]

get jiggs and ike to jump off the stage and see who dies first.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546
ike above average fall speed

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952
he also has below average horizontal air speed.

a combination of 2 bad traits when it comes to recovering makes a difference.

and care to explain how warios air game is so great? or even beats any of those characters i mentioned? sure hes quick in the air but hes got pitiful range on all his aerials and only his u-air hits hard enough to KO

First off all, this doesn't have anything to do with getting gimped anymore and certainly not with having to use QD. Do you really think the characters low on either off those lists will die much more? Get real.

Wario can do aerials really close to the ground. His nair and dair make the best use of this. KO potential doesn't add into it. His bair is a pretty good one though, if you really care.

Also, I don't get why you started arguing against the QD thing in the first place. Just watch any video of a good Ike player and notice how they don't use it.

 

[Frown]

[11 year old talk]
mario is ok
luigi sux
peach is gay
bowser is good cuz hes heavy
dk is also good
diddy sux
yoshi sux
wario is funny when he farts i play him just to fart
link is gay
zelda is boring
ganondorf is very good
toon link is young link but with big eyes
samus has a power suit
pit has wings and he is very cool cuz he can fly
there are 2 ice climbers, they are twice as good as one ice climber
robot is so lame
kirby is pink and gay
meta knight is the coolest but the ones who made him copied kirby cuz he looks like kirby
dedede is fat
olimar is lame cuz he needs slaves to fight
fox has a landmaster i think its his down b
falco has a landmaster i think its his down b
wolf has a landmaster i think its his down b
c. falcon is gay
pikachu is a pokemon who can make thunder and thats good
pokemon trainer is lame, he needs pokemon to fight
lucario is a pokemon then who is his trainer
i think jiggelpuff comes from the kirby games but she is lame
martha looks a bit like a man
ike has a sword that is big
ness is a little boy who has powers and he is very good
ness 2 is a little boy who has powers and he is very good
game and watch is all flat so he sux
snake is a chicken he just hides in a box
SONIC IS THE BEST OMG HES JUST SO COOL

tier list

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sonic

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everyone[/11 year old talk]

If I had to bet my life, I'd say that Yoshi is low to middle, since there are quite few experts.

 

[Kiwikomix]

To all of the Yoshi mainers:
I'd like to apologize for back in the earlier days, when people like pidgey14 and burntsocks told me and the other people on this thread that Yoshi was better than he was given credit for, but of course I just ridiculed you and generally acted like an @$$. I guess I've learned the error of my ways by now.
Now that I've got that off my chest, the main thing people seem to hate Yoshi for is his shield, which really isn't that big of a deal. "WOMG you can't jump out of it!" Great, I don't need to.

 

[St. Viers]

um, ike falling faster is important, as you fall while airdodging....meaning that even if Ike airdodges he can get gimped (gimps himself)

@djbrowny: wario's air game is great because of his puff like aerial movement--he doesn't need huge range because he can dart in and out without being punished. Also, his n-air has decent ranges, as does his b-air. He also has little lag (b-air shff being an exception) making it hard to punish his airgame.

 

[bigman40]

To all of the Yoshi mainers:
I'd like to apologize for back in the earlier days, when people like pidgey14 and burntsocks told me and the other people on this thread that Yoshi was better than he was given credit for, but of course I just ridiculed you and generally acted like an @$$. I guess I've learned the error of my ways by now.
Now that I've got that off my chest, the main thing people seem to hate Yoshi for is his shield, which really isn't that big of a deal. "WOMG you can't jump out of it!" Great, I don't need to.

You are one of the few people to realize that. Most people that say tried him, haven't done it for long enough. He's too different from other characters to make an accurate assumption early.

Back to subject. Most people say that smallest things like no DJC, or no jumping out of shield. They don't matter like that. His biggest problems is that his medicore move set is beaten by top and high tier characters. With the new techs for Yoshi out, he can go about even with most of those characters except for G&W, Falco, Pikachu, and maybe a few others (my opinion btw).

Now, with Yoshi having the only "wavedash" in brawl, he'll be likely to bounce up a few spots.

 

[Tofu Beast]

To all of the Yoshi mainers:
I'd like to apologize for back in the earlier days, when people like pidgey14 and burntsocks told me and the other people on this thread that Yoshi was better than he was given credit for, but of course I just ridiculed you and generally acted like an @$$. I guess I've learned the error of my ways by now.
Now that I've got that off my chest, the main thing people seem to hate Yoshi for is his shield, which really isn't that big of a deal. "WOMG you can't jump out of it!" Great, I don't need to.

burntsocks beat my Diddy on the AiB ladders! :embarrass

I didn't even know about that chaingrab thing

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

You are one of the few people to realize that. Most people that say tried him, haven't done it for long enough. He's too different from other characters to make an accurate assumption early.

Back to subject. Most people say that smallest things like no DJC, or no jumping out of shield. They don't matter like that. His biggest problems is that his medicore move set is beaten by top and high tier characters. With the new techs for Yoshi out, he can go about even with most of those characters except for G&W, Falco, Pikachu, and maybe a few others (my opinion btw).

Now, with Yoshi having the only "wavedash" in brawl, he'll be likely to bounce up a few spots.

Sheik and Lucario can do it as well, basicially any character who can crawl can.

EDIT: Never mind, you were talking about the Dragonic reverse

This definately isn't going to bump him up that much at all from what we have now, because it obviously hasn't been applied well enough to make his tournament results and overall metagame potential better as of now.

Sure, Yoshi may be a great character, but with evidence we have as of in in both tournament outings and in some ways matchups, how can we honestly put him over enough characters to place him in Mid or higher? Granted ths can all change in a few weeks, but we have to base it off now don't you think?

 

[Deleted member]

NSS, not that. Hes talking about the dragonic reverse, which really is a wavedash. Its the most technical thing in brawl at this point, but it gives u a foward or backward slide(about the length of yoshi's WD in melee), and u can attack out of it. Its far more useful, and it gives yoshi a tool to quickly move in with attacks, or to retreat quickly.

 

[mime_kirby]

redgreenblue is funny man

falcon sucks in brawl XD

 

[bigman40]

Yep, burnstocks explained what I was talking about. Look it up on the Yoshi boards. It's the biggest thing Yoshi has going. Plus, it can't be done from any other character.

EDIT: I know about the crawldash though. It's only benefical for retreating to set up a counter in my opinion. So, I don't count that as something that can boost anyone a few spots.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Wow, that Dragonic Reversal is pure $$$

Sarcasm/
Yoshi for Top Tier
/Sarcasm

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Nigerian Star Storm, thanks for your contributive post unlike Yoshi flamers.

Anyways... Yes, I don't think Yoshi will be high tier, but I think that he could at least be Middle Tier. I don't think he should be in bottom. Low Tier is OK I guess. Im pretty sure its just that us 'Yoshi defenders' just want people to understand that many of them are being too ignorant about Yoshi, and posting ignorant posts without proper knowledge.

 

[SaxDude93]

No-Contact Mortarslide>Dragonic Reversal

Now, with my Snake fanboyism out of the way; to discuss Yoshi. It's again the theory of relativity. If Yoshi wants the all might spot of low-middle, other characters are have a better case than Yoshi. Ness, Shiek, Mario, etc.

 

[DarkThundah]

[11 year old talk]
mario is ok
luigi sux
peach is gay
bowser is good cuz hes heavy
dk is also good
diddy sux
yoshi sux
wario is funny when he farts i play him just to fart
link is gay
zelda is boring
ganondorf is very good
toon link is young link but with big eyes
samus has a power suit
pit has wings and he is very cool cuz he can fly
there are 2 ice climbers, they are twice as good as one ice climber
robot is so lame
kirby is pink and gay
meta knight is the coolest but the ones who made him copied kirby cuz he looks like kirby
dedede is fat
olimar is lame cuz he needs slaves to fight
fox has a landmaster i think its his down b
falco has a landmaster i think its his down b
wolf has a landmaster i think its his down b
c. falcon is gay
pikachu is a pokemon who can make thunder and thats good
pokemon trainer is lame, he needs pokemon to fight
lucario is a pokemon then who is his trainer
i think jiggelpuff comes from the kirby games but she is lame
martha looks a bit like a man
ike has a sword that is big
ness is a little boy who has powers and he is very good
ness 2 is a little boy who has powers and he is very good
game and watch is all flat so he sux
snake is a chicken he just hides in a box
SONIC IS THE BEST OMG HES JUST SO COOL

tier list

top

sonic

bottom

everyone[/11 year old talk]

If I had to bet my life, I'd say that Yoshi is low to middle, since there are quite few experts.

haha omg, I love you

 

[Corigames]

If Yoshi was better, he would do better. Since he does poorly, we can only assume he is not good. When Yoshi starts winning, he will move up in the tier list. Until then...

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

NSS, not that. Hes talking about the dragonic reverse, which really is a wavedash. Its the most technical thing in brawl at this point, but it gives u a foward or backward slide(about the length of yoshi's WD in melee), and u can attack out of it. Its far more useful, and it gives yoshi a tool to quickly move in with attacks, or to retreat quickly.

Oh....now I see.



Maybe if appled well, that just could bump him a spot up, but even then, it's just theory.

 

[St. Viers]

I think that any char who can have melee like spacing techniques will, when people master it, be excellent.

As smash brothers is all about spacing, and WDing was key to why melee was so great, having a similar option open would greatly improve Yoshi's option, and as options=mindgames=????=profit, yoshi mains SHOULD start doing better ^_^

 

[Browny]

but does that dragonic reverse has any effect on getting through snakes ftilt? imo, unless an AT actually helps a character get past that, then its just for show. if yoshi wants to get higher in tiers hes going to have to beat snake users, i just dont see how that thing is nearly fast, or long enough to compete with certain things in brawl, like the turtle, robs dsmash etc

 

[Corigames]

If yoshi had a 100% chance of beating everyone on the tier list but snake, he would still be ranked high, possibly even #1. That would just mean Snake is his counter. But as it stands, the situation is true for Snake, except with no counter.

 

[Grunt]

*post count*

??????????
did you miss post 1337 or did I?
*checks all posts created by viers.*

BTW, 700!

 

[Corigames]

I'm going for post 9,999... then I'm going to stop. I'm sure it will get on someone's nerves.

 

[St. Viers]

@grunt--I posted in in MM9 thread ...^_^

 

[St. Viers]

nah, just stick around over the course of SSB4, and I'm sure you'll get to over 10,000^___^

 

[Dpete]

Well, I thought hizzlum really had something going with his tier list, gaining nice contributions from everyone. I guess he just gave up though, lol. So I'm going to create my own tier list heavily influenced by his.

"S" Tier:
Snake
MK

"A" Tier:
G&W
Marth
Falco
ROB
DDD

"B" Tier:
Wario
Pikachu
Lucario
Wolf
Pit
DK
Toon Link

"C" Tier:
Kirby
IC's
Olimar
Fox
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Lucas
ZSS

"D" Tier:
Sonic
Mario
Ike
Ness
Luigi
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Sheik
Samus
Bowser

"F" Tier:
Link
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon


I'm not very confident in my lower tiers, especially with the gaps between tiers.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Copypasta from my opinions of Yoshi:
"I don't see him getting out of low tier. He's just got too much competition for bottom of mid at this point: Ness, Sheik, Mario... all of them are better characters (or at least better for different things) and I can't see him surpassing them."

But who knows... I'd love to be proven wrong

 

[Corigames]

"Proven"

Proved doesn't fit that situation.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Me phail English? That's umpossible.

Fixed...

 

[adumbrodeus]

If Yoshi was better, he would do better. Since he does poorly, we can only assume he is not good. When Yoshi starts winning, he will move up in the tier list. Until then...

Well, the majority of the techniques that they're pointing out are REALLY new. Infinite Jump and super jump are derived from ISJR which is basically a late may technique and dragonic reverse is even newer, it's from June.

Expecting people to have mastered them and shown their impacts in tournaments this early is a little much, especially since I know ISJR is a very difficult technique (therefore it's derivatives would be more difficult), and I'm pretty sure dragonic reverse is also a very difficult technique.

So...

If Yoshi is better, he will do better.

Fixed

No offense, I agree, right now he's not justified in having good placement, but don't be surprised if he moves up VERY significantly in the next few months in tournament rankings. Based on the demonstrations I've seen, these techniques look like they can revolutionize Yoshi's game.


PS. I'm not a Yoshi main, secondary, tertiary, etc.

 

[Guilhe]

Tier list?

I just got into this topic and I have not seen all the 500 pages of discussion. However, from what I have played from SSBB until now, the game has proven to be very nicely balanced. I belive in the existence of tiers in all fighting games as I, being and student of game design, know how it is very hard to even things out with so much variables. But being a Ike player myself (Pit was my main before him), I have exeperimented both fast and slow characters and these two groups seemed both capable in their own way. Hell, even Ganondorf is playable now!

 

[adumbrodeus]

I just got into this topic and I have not seen all the 500 pages of discussion. However, from what I have played from SSBB until now, the game has proven to be very nicely balanced. I belive in the existence of tiers in all fighting games as I, being and student of game design, know how it is very hard to even things out with so much variables. But being a Ike player myself (Pit was my main before him), I have exeperimented both fast and slow characters and these two groups seemed both capable in their own way. Hell, even Ganondorf is playable now!

Ok, and this changes things how?

That's something pretty reasonable to say in the "brawl is more balanced then melee" thread, but it doesn't really discuss the content of the tiers at all, besides implying that ganondorf is bottom tier, or whether they should exist for that matter.

It just suggests that the characters are relatively close in power.