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why thank you dear sir for your kind wordsYou misunderstood me, I.T.P. What I meant to say was I mean no offense to YOU. It was just the general lack of arguments in this thread that annoyed me. You've obviously shown that this doesn't hold true for you.
Indeed, Samus should be A or S. Zair + missile spam ***** most approaches, and paces the game. Nair combos into dtilt, which is one of her kill moves. Screw attack builds up damage so fast. She's heavy, powerful and has really fast moves with very little lag, as well as a wide, generally balanced range. Go watch videos of Hylian. The majority of the good stuff is Samus dittos, but I think you'll see what I mean.Btw, I'm seriously lacking in knowledge and experience about Samus,Meta Knight, Falco and Mario, does anyone I misplaced them and should revise my opinion on them?
Yes, luigi has good priority - but you pay for it by only have one viable approach move. His f-smash hits like a truck but to hit with it you practically have to be in grab range. His dash attack is good at messing with people but does pretty much zero damage and leaves you completely open if you miss with it. His f-air sucks and is really short, his nair is awesome but if you use it on someone who's shielding, you're going to get grabbed. His up-smash is great at punishing people who are attacking you but it's slow at hitting things that are directly in front of you, and people see your d-smash coming a mile again.@Bane: Luigi is a lean mean green combo machine, with his Utilts, Uairs, Usmashes, Jab and Jab cancel Fire punch combos
he also has great priority, 0 lag and OMFG speed on his aerials. his recovery has also been massively boosted, with having green missile,tornado and firepunch which now actually has very good aerial control afterwards, as opposed to ~0 aerial control in SSBM.
he's got it all, he's only lacking in the range department, and his priorities and Fsmash make up for it.
any tier list at this point is based on opinion, but also arguments, some tourney and match up results and etc'.Uh, so your tier is nothing but your opinion?
This was actually my thought while making the list, I'm just afraid to put people ahead of Marth as Marth is just, well, Marth.Except I think Meta Knight will overtake Marth just because people aren't used to fighting Meta Knight style.
This was actually my thought while making the list, I'm just afraid to put people ahead of Marth as Marth is just, well, Marth.
ITP: Playing Metaknight is absurd.
You have Marth's range, speed, and aerials.
You have the jump recovery and up/down throws of Kirby.
You have the side throws of DDD.
You have faster and more controllable, albeit weaker, versions of Luigi's B-moves, only trading Fireball for a mind trick.
You have faster versions of Young Link's ground A moves that cover a larger angle of your body.
Notice how all these are really good things. Only bad thing is you have the weight class of Kirby.
The Japanese list seems to be undervaluing the more complex characters (DDD, Olimar before you realize he's not that complex at all, PT) in favor of those that look really good at first glancE (Pika, ROB) and those whose techniques have been shown (Snake).
ITP said:Well, since mic_128 decided the Japanese tier List does not warrant its own topic, I'll put it here again.
[GOD] Snake, ROB, Metakknight
Falco
[A] Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C] Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D] Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E] Zelda
[F] Jigglypuff
[G] Ganon, Yoshi
On paper, Meta Knight has the advantage, depending on what paper you're using.....or...something. See, each character controls a certain amount of space depending on what moves they have, but once they actually do something, they're committed to controlling a specific area for a set amount of time. Ike controls all the space around him at a good range, but once he uses a move, he only controls a certain area, and is forced into that control for a long time, and then eventually into no control for a while (basically his windup lag). Because of Meta Knight's general speed and range, he controls about as much space as Ike - maybe slightly less in some areas and slightly more in others - but he has a lot of viable options in the quick power department, so he's not committed to specific areas of control as long as Ike is.I've actually had better luck against Metaknight as Ike than Marth. Metaknight's floatiness and Ike's huge range seem to be a big help in this matchup. I theorize a good Metaknight player will overcome Ike's advantages anyhow, but Ike's advantages seem to be the case on paper.
Thats probably because Ike is the best character in the game at punishing misplays and controlling his general vicinity. Marth on the other hand is a tempo character, good at pressing openings. Metaknight is better at this however, which forces Marth to play the control in the matchup, which he is worse at then Ike.I've actually had better luck against Metaknight as Ike than Marth. Metaknight's floatiness and Ike's huge range seem to be a big help in this matchup. I theorize a good Metaknight player will overcome Ike's advantages anyhow, but Ike's advantages seem to be the case on paper.
This.Just keep yoshi off the bottom tier, that's all I ask. I mean geez, just because almost everyone has no clue how to use him doesn't mean he sucks.
V-cards?....in my list of everything Metaknight steals from people....
Well, since mic_128 decided the Japanese tier List does not warrant its own topic, I'll put it here again.
[GOD] Snake, ROB, Metakknight
Falco
[A] Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C] Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D] Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E] Zelda
[F] Jigglypuff
[G] Ganon, Yoshi
and let's compare this to mine
[SS]Luigi, Marth, DeDeDe, Olimar, Toon link, Pokemon Trainer
Meta knight, Diddy, Pit, Wolf, Game and Watch, Zero Suit Samus
[A]R.O.B, Ice Climbers, Ike, Snake, Lucas, Zelda, Pikachu, Falco, Wario, Peach, Mario, Lucario, Fox
Kirby, Sonic, Bowser, Ness, Samus, Link, Shiek
[C]Falcon, Gannon, Yoshi, DK, Jigglypuff
now let's put it in a readable format
Ikki - I.T.P
----------------------
Snake - Luigi
R.O.B - Marth
MK - DDD
Falco - Olimar
Toon - Toon
G&W - PT
Marth - MK
Diddy - Diddy
Zamus - Pit
Fox - Wolf
Mario - G&W
Pit - Zamus
Pikachu - R.O.B
Shiek - ICs
Wolf - Ike
Wario - Snake
ICs - Lucas
Samus - Zelda
Luigi - Pikachu
Lucario - Falco
Bowser - Wario
DK - Peach
Kirby - Mario
Peach - Lucario
Olimar - Fox
DDD - Kirby
Lucas - Sonic
Link - Bowser
Ike - Ness
Ness - Samus
PT - Link
Falcon - Shiek
Sonic - falcon
Zelda - gannon
Jiggs - yoshi
Gannon - DK
Yoshi - Jigglypuff.
If characters were low-tier because they were advanced, Olimar would be the worst character in the game. Wait a second... What's that? Olimar rocks your socks? Amazing! Yoshi must truly suck!!!Yoshi is an advanced character, which I guess makes him low tier.
Wrong. Tiers show the characters from best to worst, based on tournament standings. For a while in melee, shiek was considered top tier, until people learned how to use fox, falco, and marth effectively. At any level under the pro level, tiers don't even matter because a character's maximum potential is never reached.Tiers are only to show the ability of the character. Whether you can use a low tier to defeat a high tier shows u have skills.
nope, ganon got hit with the nerf bat. nerfed recovery, nerfed jab, slower, slower. he got more power, but slower and nerfed recovery = crapola. (ganon was my main in melee.)So what are peoples thoughts on ROB? it seems like (from what i've seen) that he just spams his laser and Dsmash then flies around til you're dumb enough to fall for that trick again...
Also, what are peoples thoughts on Wario? i've seen some ridiculous air control come from him and while his moves are crazy and random... there's a bit of power there. thoughts?
And... bowser and ganon. both slow. both strong... idk what they've been up to lately. Ganon looks like he got a huge buff, as he's a little faster. idk much about bowser however, although i've heard he's gotten better.
GO
Thats true, but Gannon's ground game is a lot better. Further reach on his jab, more power in his tilts, less lag on both his DownB and SideBs, and if you Dair as soon as you jump it's auto canceled. Great for punishing rolls. Hes also a beast against approaching air characters. I don't see him placing lower than mid.The fact that Ganondorf became slower and that L cancelling is gone (thereby exacerbating his lack of speed) makes him very nerfed. But that's partially because Ganon players are used to playing him like he was played in Melee. Although I don't see how much useful he would be with characters like Ike and Dedede. Still, his stomp is pretty, and his recovery didn't get nerfed at all...in fact, his sideB is a viable recovery option and his upB got better.
his down+b doesnt give him back his second jump. recovery is nerfed.The fact that Ganondorf became slower and that L cancelling is gone (thereby exacerbating his lack of speed) makes him very nerfed. But that's partially because Ganon players are used to playing him like he was played in Melee. Although I don't see how much useful he would be with characters like Ike and Dedede. Still, his stomp is pretty, and his recovery didn't get nerfed at all...in fact, his sideB is a viable recovery option and his upB got better.
his downB doesn't give him an extra jump, but due to overall floatiness he doesn't need it, and it would make his recovery broken...everything else that you said is completely wrong.his down+b doesnt give him back his second jump. recovery is nerfed.
yeah, the forward +B works now, but he doesnt get nearly the total distance anymore.
plus is up+B doesnt get as much horizontal distance to boot.
First of all the game's been out 9 days, secondly, i have a huge group of smash friends who we do 1v1 tests with.What tests could you have possibly run in the 5 days that you've had all the characters unlocked?
Placing DK in the bottom tear so easily, hardly makes anything you say liable