Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Vegeta214]

You misunderstood me, I.T.P. What I meant to say was I mean no offense to YOU. It was just the general lack of arguments in this thread that annoyed me. You've obviously shown that this doesn't hold true for you.

 

[I.T.P]

You misunderstood me, I.T.P. What I meant to say was I mean no offense to YOU. It was just the general lack of arguments in this thread that annoyed me. You've obviously shown that this doesn't hold true for you.

why thank you dear sir for your kind words

Btw, I'm seriously lacking in knowledge and experience about Samus,Meta Knight, Falco and Mario, does anyone I misplaced them and should revise my opinion on them?

 

[BDawgPHD]

I.T.P. I don't own the game, but I do play it with friends and stuff. I'm still trying to find vids of the tourney thing or whatever with gimpyfish and that snake, because gimpy used metaknight, and I'm interested in what a good metaknight actually looks like. But metaknight in general, as you already know, has a lot of comboing ability and just general cheepness, like Marth, but weaker and faster. Except he has much more killing potential than scrubs make him out for. Disregarding that he can stage spike pretty well (mostly by accident for me, just trying to recover at the right time ), his dair and dsmash are pretty quick moves with loads of knockback. Assuming that none of his moves get degraded, he has surprising killing potential anyway.....I've killed people with an uair, and i was like wtf....anyway. He doesn't have a lot of airspeed, which means he can't edgeguard brokenly, but he is still pretty effective at edgeguarding/edge camping due to his ability to recovery and to generally put pressure on recovering characters. On another note, he's amazing at racking up damage in an difficult-to-punish fashion, so even if you're having trouble getting a kill off, you can still approach and damage your opponent to the point where most attacks will kill them, or at least put them on the defensive again. Most of the dying I do is just lack of foresight....bad spacing and getting fsmashed, being outprioritized by an uair, things like that...just things that I see coming before it's too late, or just mess up the timing of. Or I do something really stupid, like falling dair near the edge of a stage, or jump down for edgeguard and save someone, and then have them edgeguard me.

Overall, I think the list I saw a few pages back, with Marth up top and Meta Knight right under him, was mostly right. Except I think Meta Knight will overtake Marth just because people aren't used to fighting Meta Knight style.

 

[The Mediator]

^Massive block of letters that would probably hurt my eyes really really bad if i tried to read it...

 

[ph00tbag]

Btw, I'm seriously lacking in knowledge and experience about Samus,Meta Knight, Falco and Mario, does anyone I misplaced them and should revise my opinion on them?

Indeed, Samus should be A or S. Zair + missile spam ***** most approaches, and paces the game. Nair combos into dtilt, which is one of her kill moves. Screw attack builds up damage so fast. She's heavy, powerful and has really fast moves with very little lag, as well as a wide, generally balanced range. Go watch videos of Hylian. The majority of the good stuff is Samus dittos, but I think you'll see what I mean.

You might also want to put Zamus down in the As.

Come to think of it, I can't imagine why people put Zamus so high, but Samus so ridiculously low.

 

[veritron]

@Bane: Luigi is a lean mean green combo machine, with his Utilts, Uairs, Usmashes, Jab and Jab cancel Fire punch combos

he also has great priority, 0 lag and OMFG speed on his aerials. his recovery has also been massively boosted, with having green missile,tornado and firepunch which now actually has very good aerial control afterwards, as opposed to ~0 aerial control in SSBM.

he's got it all, he's only lacking in the range department, and his priorities and Fsmash make up for it.

Yes, luigi has good priority - but you pay for it by only have one viable approach move. His f-smash hits like a truck but to hit with it you practically have to be in grab range. His dash attack is good at messing with people but does pretty much zero damage and leaves you completely open if you miss with it. His f-air sucks and is really short, his nair is awesome but if you use it on someone who's shielding, you're going to get grabbed. His up-smash is great at punishing people who are attacking you but it's slow at hitting things that are directly in front of you, and people see your d-smash coming a mile again.

What does this leave? Your b-air. That move actually has great range and will knock people back far enough so you don't get shield-grabbed - so in short you're going to have to totally RAR-***** to make luigi viable on the offensive end.

Now granted, you do have the luigi tornado, which is awesome and screws with people but doesn't really do much in the way of damage, and the fireballs, which work surprising well as edge-guarding tools this time around and are good at really pissing people off. You can also use the green missile offensively if you get lucky because misfires probably won't send you flying to your death but will kill whoever you're fighting at a relatively low percent, but it's not a reliable kill move.

Now compare this list to that of Diddy's, who's f-air is as good as your b-air, and who has better moves than you pretty much down the line.

 

[Evilpenguin]

Samus probably should be higher. She has reasonable combo potential and the only thing that was really changed from melee was her ability to missile spam.

Meta is a tough one. As people have said, he as massive combo potential, but no killing moves. He also has ridiculous recovery.

Falco is different... It's hard for me to judge since I play him a lot. I have been able to do pretty well against other high-top tier range characters. But I'll leave falco alone for fairness's sake.

Mario is pretty strong. Definitely an improvement from melee. FLUDD isn't useful often, but other parts of him are still strong. He can throw combo which most characters can't, and his spike (fair) has a larger hitbox and less lag that melee. It is actually one of the easier to hit spikes from what I've seen.

My opinion overall is that you slightly underplaced all 4 of those characters by say... 5 slots maybe. But you should get other opinions that mine, especially for falco.

 

[The Mediator]

^I agree with you about Mario. I never played him much in Melee, but now he's one of my favorite characters, because of the incredibly useful buffs he's received. Mario should be higher.

 

[w!ld ch!ld]

jiggs got totally nerfed combo to the sleep is nearly worthless, the water canceling is only usefull if you miss on the attack her combo ability is not as good as before about the only thing to do anymore is wall of pain which has gotten awkward to use on some charactors that act differently like yoshi w/ his mid jump and stuff like that but for my high teir id put
IC around the top even if their z grab is banned then they still have super grabs and a nice spike and crazy high damage (if you sweet spot it you can get a 44 dmg down smash) and the recovory is great too. and PIT, pika, falco, fox, wolf, marth and maybe meta knight but it can be difficult to get some kills off but i still play his as a second.

 

[I.T.P]

Well, since mic_128 decided the Japanese tier List does not warrant its own topic, I'll put it here again.

[GOD] Snake, ROB, Metakknight
Falco
[A] Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C] Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D] Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E] Zelda
[F] Jigglypuff
[G] Ganon, Yoshi

and let's compare this to mine

[SS]Luigi, Marth, DeDeDe, Olimar, Toon link, Pokemon Trainer
Meta knight, Diddy, Pit, Wolf, Game and Watch, Zero Suit Samus
[A]R.O.B, Ice Climbers, Ike, Snake, Lucas, Zelda, Pikachu, Falco, Wario, Peach, Mario, Lucario, Fox
Kirby, Sonic, Bowser, Ness, Samus, Link, Shiek
[C]Falcon, Gannon, Yoshi, DK, Jigglypuff

now let's put it in a readable format
Ikki - I.T.P
----------------------
Snake - Luigi
R.O.B - Marth
MK - DDD
Falco - Olimar
Toon - Toon
G&W - PT
Marth - MK
Diddy - Diddy
Zamus - Pit
Fox - Wolf
Mario - G&W
Pit - Zamus
Pikachu - R.O.B
Shiek - ICs
Wolf - Ike
Wario - Snake
ICs - Lucas
Samus - Zelda
Luigi - Pikachu
Lucario - Falco
Bowser - Wario
DK - Peach
Kirby - Mario
Peach - Lucario
Olimar - Fox
DDD - Kirby
Lucas - Sonic
Link - Bowser
Ike - Ness
Ness - Samus
PT - Link
Falcon - Shiek
Sonic - falcon
Zelda - gannon
Jiggs - yoshi
Gannon - DK
Yoshi - Jigglypuff.

 

[Demolisho]

Uh, so your tier is nothing but your opinion?

 

[I.T.P]

Uh, so your tier is nothing but your opinion?

any tier list at this point is based on opinion, but also arguments, some tourney and match up results and etc'.

I will review it again sometimes in the next couple of days.

 

[armlx]

Except I think Meta Knight will overtake Marth just because people aren't used to fighting Meta Knight style.

This was actually my thought while making the list, I'm just afraid to put people ahead of Marth as Marth is just, well, Marth.

ITP: Playing Metaknight is absurd.

You have Marth's range, speed, and aerials.
You have the jump recovery and up/down throws of Kirby.
You have the side throws of DDD.
You have faster and more controllable, albeit weaker, versions of Luigi's B-moves, only trading Fireball for a mind trick.
You have faster versions of Young Link's ground A moves that cover a larger angle of your body.

Notice how all these are really good things. Only bad thing is you have the weight class of Kirby.

The Japanese list seems to be undervaluing the more complex characters (DDD, Olimar before you realize he's not that complex at all, PT) in favor of those that look really good at first glancE (Pika, ROB) and those whose techniques have been shown (Snake).

 

[I.T.P]

This was actually my thought while making the list, I'm just afraid to put people ahead of Marth as Marth is just, well, Marth.

ITP: Playing Metaknight is absurd.

You have Marth's range, speed, and aerials.
You have the jump recovery and up/down throws of Kirby.
You have the side throws of DDD.
You have faster and more controllable, albeit weaker, versions of Luigi's B-moves, only trading Fireball for a mind trick.
You have faster versions of Young Link's ground A moves that cover a larger angle of your body.

Notice how all these are really good things. Only bad thing is you have the weight class of Kirby.

The Japanese list seems to be undervaluing the more complex characters (DDD, Olimar before you realize he's not that complex at all, PT) in favor of those that look really good at first glancE (Pika, ROB) and those whose techniques have been shown (Snake).

I'll try and learn more about him and get more play time with him, but he didn't impress me as much as others did. we'll see

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I've actually had better luck against Metaknight as Ike than Marth. Metaknight's floatiness and Ike's huge range seem to be a big help in this matchup. I theorize a good Metaknight player will overcome Ike's advantages anyhow, but Ike's advantages seem to be the case on paper.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Since I am sure no one wants to read through 65 pages of who their favorite characters are... could someone update the front page with information as it gets developed. This could help others get caught up to speed so that others may be able to get involved in this discussion.

 

[Lixivium]

Well, since mic_128 decided the Japanese tier List does not warrant its own topic, I'll put it here again.

[GOD] Snake, ROB, Metakknight
Falco
[A] Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C] Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D] Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E] Zelda
[F] Jigglypuff
[G] Ganon, Yoshi

No way Falco is above Toon Link
Mario is too high
PT is too low
Switch tiers B and C (except for Wolf)

 

[BDawgPHD]

I've actually had better luck against Metaknight as Ike than Marth. Metaknight's floatiness and Ike's huge range seem to be a big help in this matchup. I theorize a good Metaknight player will overcome Ike's advantages anyhow, but Ike's advantages seem to be the case on paper.

On paper, Meta Knight has the advantage, depending on what paper you're using.....or...something. See, each character controls a certain amount of space depending on what moves they have, but once they actually do something, they're committed to controlling a specific area for a set amount of time. Ike controls all the space around him at a good range, but once he uses a move, he only controls a certain area, and is forced into that control for a long time, and then eventually into no control for a while (basically his windup lag). Because of Meta Knight's general speed and range, he controls about as much space as Ike - maybe slightly less in some areas and slightly more in others - but he has a lot of viable options in the quick power department, so he's not committed to specific areas of control as long as Ike is.

Basically, it's hard to punish Meta Knight, and Meta Knight can basically do what he wants, anything from hardcore defense to aggressive offense to anything in between. Being able to do that puts him at a significant advantage over Ike.

...of course, that's just on paper. I haven't played a good Ike yet, and I'm not really a noteworthy MK yet, but don't worry, I got this guys

 

[XenoGeno]

While I'm not opposed to the tiers as a whole, I'd like to argue against there being a top/god tier in Brawl. In most other games, that tier represents the characters who can only hope to be beaten by another character in that tier or, with a bit of luck, one from the high tier, and I feel Brawl is balanced enough to not have that problem.

For the most part, though, the Japanese list looks right. But what the hell do I know?

 

[Gindler]

Just keep yoshi off the bottom tier, that's all I ask. I mean geez, just because almost everyone has no clue how to use him doesn't mean he sucks.

 

[K20AFoozbal]

So what are peoples thoughts on ROB? it seems like (from what i've seen) that he just spams his laser and Dsmash then flies around til you're dumb enough to fall for that trick again...

As for MK, my buddy plays him and there was one time where he didnt let me touch the ground for like 30 seconds... it was pretty bad...


Also, people like Livixium should be giving reasons for why their choices should be made... otherwise this is just a bunch of boneheads saying "dahhh.... i thinks sthis guy is teh good cuz he is. LOL!"

Also, what are peoples thoughts on Wario? i've seen some ridiculous air control come from him and while his moves are crazy and random... there's a bit of power there. thoughts?

And... bowser and ganon. both slow. both strong... idk what they've been up to lately. Ganon looks like he got a huge buff, as he's a little faster. idk much about bowser however, although i've heard he's gotten better.

GO


EDIT -- imo, yoshi has made a huge improvement since melee. his egg is controllable, he hits hella hard and he's still quick for what it's worth. Plus his priority isnt too shabby. Other than that i havent played with him too much, but i still feel he deserves better than DK or jiggz or even kirby.

 

[armlx]

I've actually had better luck against Metaknight as Ike than Marth. Metaknight's floatiness and Ike's huge range seem to be a big help in this matchup. I theorize a good Metaknight player will overcome Ike's advantages anyhow, but Ike's advantages seem to be the case on paper.

Thats probably because Ike is the best character in the game at punishing misplays and controlling his general vicinity. Marth on the other hand is a tempo character, good at pressing openings. Metaknight is better at this however, which forces Marth to play the control in the matchup, which he is worse at then Ike.

Also forgot to mention Pit's glide in my list of everything Metaknight steals from people. Another dumb thing.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Just keep yoshi off the bottom tier, that's all I ask. I mean geez, just because almost everyone has no clue how to use him doesn't mean he sucks.

This.

Yoshi is an advanced character, which I guess makes him low tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I haven't played a lot of Yoshi, but Kirby got major buffs from Melee, he plays a lot like Jiggs and like old school Kirby. There's no way Yoshi would be higher than Kirby, in fact I think Kirby should be reasonably high on the tier list....I don't know about his tournament ability, though....someone needs to fill in all the blanks....someone with half a brain.

....in my list of everything Metaknight steals from people....

V-cards?

 

[mikee8728]

Well, since mic_128 decided the Japanese tier List does not warrant its own topic, I'll put it here again.

[GOD] Snake, ROB, Metakknight
Falco
[A] Toon, G&W, Marth, Diddy, Zamus, Fox, Mario, Pit
Pikachu, Sheik, Wolf, Wario, IC, Samus, Luigi, Lucario, Bowser, DK, Kirby
[C] Peach, Olimar, DDD, Lucas
[D] Link, Ike, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Falcon, Sonic
[E] Zelda
[F] Jigglypuff
[G] Ganon, Yoshi

and let's compare this to mine

[SS]Luigi, Marth, DeDeDe, Olimar, Toon link, Pokemon Trainer
Meta knight, Diddy, Pit, Wolf, Game and Watch, Zero Suit Samus
[A]R.O.B, Ice Climbers, Ike, Snake, Lucas, Zelda, Pikachu, Falco, Wario, Peach, Mario, Lucario, Fox
Kirby, Sonic, Bowser, Ness, Samus, Link, Shiek
[C]Falcon, Gannon, Yoshi, DK, Jigglypuff

now let's put it in a readable format
Ikki - I.T.P
----------------------
Snake - Luigi
R.O.B - Marth
MK - DDD
Falco - Olimar
Toon - Toon
G&W - PT
Marth - MK
Diddy - Diddy
Zamus - Pit
Fox - Wolf
Mario - G&W
Pit - Zamus
Pikachu - R.O.B
Shiek - ICs
Wolf - Ike
Wario - Snake
ICs - Lucas
Samus - Zelda
Luigi - Pikachu
Lucario - Falco
Bowser - Wario
DK - Peach
Kirby - Mario
Peach - Lucario
Olimar - Fox
DDD - Kirby
Lucas - Sonic
Link - Bowser
Ike - Ness
Ness - Samus
PT - Link
Falcon - Shiek
Sonic - falcon
Zelda - gannon
Jiggs - yoshi
Gannon - DK
Yoshi - Jigglypuff.

seems about right.

 

[` P e a c h]

Tiers are only to show the ability of the character. Whether you can use a low tier to defeat a high tier shows u have skills.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Yoshi is an advanced character, which I guess makes him low tier.

If characters were low-tier because they were advanced, Olimar would be the worst character in the game. Wait a second... What's that? Olimar rocks your socks? Amazing! Yoshi must truly suck!!!

 

[BDawgPHD]

Tiers are only to show the ability of the character. Whether you can use a low tier to defeat a high tier shows u have skills.

Wrong. Tiers show the characters from best to worst, based on tournament standings. For a while in melee, shiek was considered top tier, until people learned how to use fox, falco, and marth effectively. At any level under the pro level, tiers don't even matter because a character's maximum potential is never reached.

 

[napZzz]

marth/peach/lucas/wolf are all for realz top tier I'm PRETTY sure. Marth is not "broken" he just cant wave dash anymore. His airs come out way faster now. Peach is still in a sense the same so yeah shes top. lucas AMAZZZZING recovery if you know what you are doing and just about all of his moves are very useful, Wolf is an offense god, except he has bad recovery that you can easily edge hog.

 

[JPOBS]

Ok, The back room will decide on the first real teir list right? when they do that, will they let us see their their reasoning and arguments or will they just release the list then let us tear each other apart over it like tender meat released to caged wolfs...?

 

[tenyearwarranty]

[Top] ROB, Metakknight, Snake, Pit
[Upper] Toon, G&W, Diddy, Mario, Lucas, Ike, Wario, Olimar, Marth,
[Mid] Zelda, Luigi, Lucario, Kirby, Falco, Zamus, Pokemon Trainer, Peach, DDD, Samus, Fox
[Lower Mid] Sheik, DK, Wolf, Sonic, Ganon, Link, Bowser,
[Low] Pikachu, Falcon, Ness, IC, Yoshi, Jigglypuff

I could see Pit and Snake move to top as they have the most potential to improve, Marth is played more or less the same as he was in melee. He's becoming stale and I see him dropping down to mid as the new characters have lots of ways to improve. Take note that I don't have a bottom tier, I just find the low characters to have low potential.

This is in no way an accurate representation of character placement. This is compiled based on personal experience, knowledge of the techs present for each character (that I've read about through character specific forums) and watching videos of competent players. Not official, not compiled through tournament data, just pure speculation on my part.

tl:dr
Don't take this list seriously. Everyone categorized within mid and low mid could go either direction with the coming months. Hell we don't even know who counters who yet.

 

[legendofme]

Tiers show ease of use and how easy it is to bring out winning potential. Yoshi is indeed very hardto use and to win with. We aren't saying he can't beat anybody. I know a Yoshi that would trash me. But I bet he has to apply all the mindgames possible just to take a stock off while I can just abuse the tilts with Marth or etc.

As of right now Yoshi and Ganon just ain't cuttin it.....I'll give them a year to **** ppl.. until then I just dunno.

 

[Olaf]

So what are peoples thoughts on ROB? it seems like (from what i've seen) that he just spams his laser and Dsmash then flies around til you're dumb enough to fall for that trick again...

Also, what are peoples thoughts on Wario? i've seen some ridiculous air control come from him and while his moves are crazy and random... there's a bit of power there. thoughts?

And... bowser and ganon. both slow. both strong... idk what they've been up to lately. Ganon looks like he got a huge buff, as he's a little faster. idk much about bowser however, although i've heard he's gotten better.

GO

nope, ganon got hit with the nerf bat. nerfed recovery, nerfed jab, slower, slower. he got more power, but slower and nerfed recovery = crapola. (ganon was my main in melee.)

rob - comboability, the top is fantastic, smashes, tilts...yeah, top tier is a possibility. (my main since before us release).

snake = top tier? this, i dont understand. ive been considering making him my 2nd only on how interesting he is to play, since i honestly dont care enough about him as a character...but if hes supposedly amazing, then i dont know. im lost.
otherwise, wolf is probably about b/c tier, and wario c/d tier. imo.
wolfs recovery hurts him a lot, but his tilts and aerials are amazing. and the blaster is fantastic spam.
wario seems too slow, laggy and not powerful enough.

 

[BDawgPHD]

The fact that Ganondorf became slower and that L cancelling is gone (thereby exacerbating his lack of speed) makes him very nerfed. But that's partially because Ganon players are used to playing him like he was played in Melee. Although I don't see how much useful he would be with characters like Ike and Dedede. Still, his stomp is pretty, and his recovery didn't get nerfed at all...in fact, his sideB is a viable recovery option and his upB got better.

 

[demonpanther]

My predictions

I feel that brawls tier list will be a lot closer and more fair, choosing low tier this time around won't be that bad as it was in melee.

Mario: Can combo better, has much more killing options and can edge guard his *** off with FLUDD. His recovery is not amazing however. Mario may end up in the High - Mid tier range.

Luigi: Can also combo and has even more killing power than Mario. He is fast and his recovery is up there as one of the best. He will most likely end up closer to High-mid tier.

Samus: Powerful and useful aerials and her charge shot still kills pretty well. Her missile game is not that great however and she doesn't benefit as well from Hyphen smashing. Mid tier range maybe on the high end.

Link: Powerful albeit laggy aerials. Boomerang is very useful and can edgeguard pretty well (throw boomerang opposite way, air-dodge your catching it and let the wind carry them off screen). Bombs are strong but catching projectiles is a bit too easy in this game. Mid tier.

DK: Powerful moves, quick aerials even the forward air can be used really well close to the ground. Fast tilt, /\B buffed and super armor on the DK punch is a plus. No projectiles and size still hurt the poor monkey. He will most likely Be Mid- Tier as well.

Yoshi: Nice simple one move combos, Dair to FSJ is a very very powerful edgeguard (it can take care of ROB, Pit and Metaknight with their crazy recovery) Aerials are pretty good and he is slightly heavy. His recovery can still be gimped pretty bad by High Tier people. Mid Tier but up there.

Marth: Most of his game remains the same save for shorter tipper and grab range. High Tier and mostly because it takes the least effort to re learn him.

Mr. G&W: All of his moves are extremely useful, seriously all. There is no useless move on him. Aerials are pretty good with nice priority and speed. Mobility after /\B and the shield eating turtle i would have to say High-Tier.

Kirby: Plays closer to 64, high mobility, better aerials and hammer, Dair spike after a FSJ is beastly. A light contender however dies around the 90% to 100% range. High - Mid tier

Fox: Still fast, Gimps like no ones business. Great stales to help out aerial movement. Decent approaches, priority and aerials. Not like his Melee self but still pretty **** good. High- Mid tier.

Lucas: Very powerful. Smashes are extremely good. Specials are great, his \/B hurts you. Aerials are so **** good. PK thunder recovery is not gimp-able like Ness. High Tier.

Diddy: Agile and small. Attacks do decent damage and banana game is deadly if used correctly, The popguns are a good edgeguard in some cases. Recovery is a bit problematic sometimes but wall clinging helps. Lower end of the High Tier.

Lucario: becomes more problematic with more damage he has. And since Percentages soar in this game, it is like he was tailor made for the situation. Many Disjointed attacks on this guy, a powerful projectile and decent recovery makes him a candidate for high tier.

R.O.B: Tons of priority, nice projectiles and a very awesome recovery. he is a pretty fast heavy and i see him being in the high tier as well.

Bowser: Koopa King rules no doubt. He is stronger and faster with powerful tilts and specials. Flamethrower is so useful for stopping rehashed approaches (i see u IKE). However size and lag on some aerials will keep him around High Mid Tier.

Dedede: If you do not edgeguard with this guy, you are playing him wrong. Heavy with a decent recovery and Tilts that reach farther than Marths sword. Almost spammable projectiles and really good off the edge game and a chain grab. i see him in the High - med tier range.

Falco: Moves and are great with some nice priority. The laser approach is still very solid and his recovery is a little better using the phantasm. The \/B interupts a lot of moves and his Dair while tricky is still a nice spike. High tier.

Toon Link: Besides having an awful name, His downsides are few and far between. Great for pillaring nice projectile game, WOP Bairs and a very good neutral air. Aerials are fast and powerful. That Dair is unfair sometimes. High tier.

Ike: Laggy aerials and gimp-able recovery aside, he has the most range and power of any charcter. All his aerials have range out the *** and with the use of Hyphen smashing, his Uair looks like it comes out extremely fast. I will give him High-Mid range.

Ness: is back baby, All his moves are powerful and his B> is extremely good. The Bat is still a great move and his spike can be used very well low to the ground. However his recovery is more gimp-able than Lucas, Throw a waddle dee at that PK thunder ball and u have a dead Ness. High-mid

Pit: This guys Tilts can can kill better than his smash attacks sometimes. His aerials are all good for racking up damage. His arrows are so spammable it should be illegal. His down B can stop the entirety of Pikachu's \/smash and G&W turtle and can reflect projectiles as well. If it wasn't for his very gimpable recovery he would be higher. I see him in the lower end of the High tier cast.

Peach: the princess is still powerful in her own right. The glide is still effective and the turnips can still be used effectively. specials are way better in range and speed (use her heart filled booty attack to edgeguard) however priority in most of her moves was taken away. Mid tier.

Jigglypuff: No doubt the WOP took a hit and the rest is not as deadly but all around she isn't that bad. You can still WOP but Toon Link has that covered now. She can still recover pretty well and priority is still pretty good. Loss of the grab to rest combos hurt ALOT. Low end of the Mid tier scale.

Ice Climbers: really now, they deserve more recognition. If u have not gone to their character thread, take a trip. ladies and gentleman their grab combos are still around and still just as deadly. Their recovery is way better (NANA GRABS LEDGES) and their B> is great for racking damage. High-mid by far.

Olimar: Best grab range in game, He can rack you pretty **** well and even without Pikmin priority is pretty **** high. Like pit his highly Gimpable recovery will keep him on the low end of the high tier characters.

Pkmn Trainer: Each character is better suited for others squirtle rips through most heavy characters and is on even footing with faster ones, Ivysaur however is more suited to fighting fast characters due to his range, Charizard rips Medium characters a new one. Charizard versus Marth actually works in charizards favor. All together High tier.

Wario: This guy also deserves more credit. His aerials and tilts are great. The bike as a recovery and move are really good. He is strong and pretty fast. His fart is a game ender it has super armor on first few frames and the best priority of ALL MOVES. Can blast through Links Dair. Use the fart when someone wants to Attack you from above. High Tier because once pros learn when to use the fart move it will always result in a kill.

Ganondorf: He is very pwerful with a few good tilts. Spacing is the name of the game with him. His aerials are decent and priority is pretty good. His gimp-able recovery, speed and stiff movements will keep him in the low end of the med tier range.

Wolf: Lots of priority on this guy. His blaster is as useful as Falco's. His Fsmash has a nice amount of range on it. he can gimp like fox and is overall really solid with decent recovery. High Tier

Snake: This guy is a Mindgame Monkey. He has a lot of versitility. There is no true strategy for this guy, it is sort of a react as u go kinda deal. All his moves have decent priority and knockback so it really just becomes how can i get my opponent trapped. High Tier only because it is unclear what his limitations are.

Sonic: Fast... thats it. Thats all.... Fast. If you are about to touch the ground be sure that Sonic will be next to u before you can blink. His aerials are all decent and his redundant specials are very useful for certain situations. His B when used as an edgeguard works wonders and his recovery is pretty **** good. High - Mid range.

Zelda: Great aerials. All are good and useful. Dins fire is very spammable. Pit contends with her the most. her ground game leaves a bit to be desired. High - Mid tier.

Sheik: She makes up for Zelda's ground game, as her Aerials are not that great. He can still kill but i can definately see people switching to Zelda when they want to go for the kill.
(wait until u are knocked high in the air to safely change) High - mid tier.

Pikachu: IS BACK. Priority was given to him on most moves. Combo-able Fair and sick Dsmash makes this guy a hassle. Thunder is now spammable cause of the low amount of lag afterwards now. Oh yeah, he still spams thundershocks as well. Upper part of the High-Mid Tier

Metaknight: Truly a monster in the right hands. Best recovery by far, and to those that say he doesn't have any kill moves clearly have forgotten about his /\B and glide slash. He has decent priority and extremely quick attacks. Great at pillaring. he can rack you up **** quick and knock you away quicker. The only true problem with him is his weight. You may be dead before you capitalize on that 200+ damage you gave to your opponent. Upper High - mid Tier.

ZSS: Fast and has Range Comparable to Ike. her b> (for those that don't know) is her longest attack and the tip can kill at 150%. yessir deadly. her recovery is her B\/ as well as her B/\. She is good. High-mid tier.

Captain Falcon: What a fall from grace this man has reserved. he was hit so hard with the nerf bat it is harder and harder for this guy to match up against competent players. Priority is really low on most moves. Hyphen Smashing helps some as well as lagless aerials. Most combos are gone due to the floatiness of the game. I hate to say that this guy is most likely gonna stay in the Mid - Low tier for quite some time.

NOTE THIS IS RELATIVE TO CURRENT SKILL AND WILL CHANGE.

High Tier

Marth
ROB
Toon Link
G&W
Falco
Wario
Olimar
Wolf
Diddy
Lucas
Pit
Lucario
PKMN Trainer
Snake

High-Mid Tier

Ike
Fox
Dedede
Kirby
ZSS
Pikachu
Ness
Sonic
Zelda/Sheik
Metaknight
Kirby
Luigi
Ice Climbers

Middle Tier

Mario
Bowser
Yoshi
Samus
Link
Peach
DK
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Middle-Low Tier

Captain Falcon

 

[tenyearwarranty]

The fact that Ganondorf became slower and that L cancelling is gone (thereby exacerbating his lack of speed) makes him very nerfed. But that's partially because Ganon players are used to playing him like he was played in Melee. Although I don't see how much useful he would be with characters like Ike and Dedede. Still, his stomp is pretty, and his recovery didn't get nerfed at all...in fact, his sideB is a viable recovery option and his upB got better.

Thats true, but Gannon's ground game is a lot better. Further reach on his jab, more power in his tilts, less lag on both his DownB and SideBs, and if you Dair as soon as you jump it's auto canceled. Great for punishing rolls. Hes also a beast against approaching air characters. I don't see him placing lower than mid.

 

[Olaf]

The fact that Ganondorf became slower and that L cancelling is gone (thereby exacerbating his lack of speed) makes him very nerfed. But that's partially because Ganon players are used to playing him like he was played in Melee. Although I don't see how much useful he would be with characters like Ike and Dedede. Still, his stomp is pretty, and his recovery didn't get nerfed at all...in fact, his sideB is a viable recovery option and his upB got better.

his down+b doesnt give him back his second jump. recovery is nerfed.
yeah, the forward +B works now, but he doesnt get nearly the total distance anymore.
plus is up+B doesnt get as much horizontal distance to boot.

 

[JPOBS]

demonpanther, where the hell is the G&W summary!1 grrr!!

 

[BDawgPHD]

his down+b doesnt give him back his second jump. recovery is nerfed.
yeah, the forward +B works now, but he doesnt get nearly the total distance anymore.
plus is up+B doesnt get as much horizontal distance to boot.

his downB doesn't give him an extra jump, but due to overall floatiness he doesn't need it, and it would make his recovery broken...everything else that you said is completely wrong.

 

[Koga]

What tests could you have possibly run in the 5 days that you've had all the characters unlocked?

Placing DK in the bottom tear so easily, hardly makes anything you say liable

First of all the game's been out 9 days, secondly, i have a huge group of smash friends who we do 1v1 tests with.

Why is DK low tier? 'cause he can't out prioritize any of the top tier and half of the High tier, To many characters just beat DK, so in a tourney he's very unlikely to place well.

He can't Beat:

Pits arrows or side b
Marth's everything
Falco's Lazers and shine
Fox's Dair to shine to grab
Ike's Everything
Ness and lucas's everything
Meta Knights Sword
Zamus's Wip
Toon Links everything
Pikachu.....

I could go on, but its pretty apparent there's just too much stuff that DK doesn't have an answer for, so in a tournament even with every character being played, the DK player wouldn't win unless he's playing 5 year olds