Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, I main Falco.

Let's talk about.

Falco can do a CG combo on Snake. But I'm pretty sure Snake can pull out a grenade to stop it.

Seriously Falco has nothing on Snake. No approach and no camping. And Snake kills him at like 90 with anything.

GG Falco

*Hands Snake the King of Brawl crown.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Ok, I main Falco.

Let's talk about.

Falco can do a CG combo on Snake. But I'm pretty sure Snake can pull out a grenade to stop it.

Seriously Falco has nothing on Snake. No approach and no camping. And Snake kills him at like 90 with anything.

GG Falco

*Hands Snake the King of Brawl crown.

OBJECTION!!!

The only one that deserves a crown around here is KING Dedede!!!!

I really want to play against a good Snake. In the meantime, I'm gonna be a dillhole and use Snake whenever I can to piss off my friends.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I feel everyone should know that there is a possibility that the IC's (the actual character) may be banned from tournament play. They now have around 8 chaingrabs, several of which are inescapable, no matter what character they use it on. Add to this the fact they were buffed in general plus the fact that there increased traction means shieldgrabs are much much easier, they are the first truly broken character in SSB history.

Ironically the only person the chaingrabs don't work on IS THE ICE CLIMBERS!

 

[Valken]

I feel everyone should know that there is a possibility that the IC's (the actual character) may be banned from tournament play. They now have around 8 chaingrabs, several of which are inescapable, no matter what character they use it on. Add to this the fact they were buffed in general plus the fact that there increased traction means shieldgrabs are much much easier, they are the first truly broken character in SSB history.

Ironically the only person the chaingrabs don't work on IS THE ICE CLIMBERS!

Where did you get your information from?

You sound like you've heard this from someone important. I doubt the legitimacy of that claim. However, I do feel that there is a good chance that Chaingrabbing, it's self, will be banned. Perhaps no more than three in a row.

 

[Corner-Trap]

First off, I don't see how Pikachu is in any way a counter to Snake. Second of all I main the IC's(if that wasn't already apparent), and they are really good, but not ban worthy. Just because they have infinites isn't justification for a ban. They have quite a few disadvantageous match-ups which will hold them from being top tier, so would it make sense to put a ban on a high tier character?

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's not just about having infinites, but how consistently they can get them off.

They will not be consistently grabbing their opponents in their bad match-ups.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I feel everyone should know that there is a possibility that the IC's (the actual character) may be banned from tournament play. They now have around 8 chaingrabs, several of which are inescapable, no matter what character they use it on. Add to this the fact they were buffed in general plus the fact that there increased traction means shieldgrabs are much much easier, they are the first truly broken character in SSB history.

Ironically the only person the chaingrabs don't work on IS THE ICE CLIMBERS!

No Items Ice Climbers only Final destination?

 

[BDawgPHD]

First off, I don't see how Pikachu is in any way a counter to Snake. Second of all I main the IC's(if that wasn't already apparent), and they are really good, but not ban worthy. Just because they have infinites isn't justification for a ban. They have quite a few disadvantageous match-ups which will hold them from being top tier, so would it make sense to put a ban on a high tier character?

Pikachu is arguably as broken as MK and Snake are. He has little to no lag on any moves, he combos decently, he has ways to combo people off the screen, he has good recovery, and a sweetass projectile.

Pikachu can thundershock-camp Snake out. He doesn't quite have the range to approach, but he can camp well enough. Snake can't crawl under the thundershocks, and unless his usmash has superarmor or special properties, I don't think he can boost dash through it. He can't nikita camp because thundershock either breaks or negates it, he can't really fly it over the thundershocks because the thundershocks last for a very good long time....and Pikachu can just shield grab any aerial approachals that Snake makes, save maybe an overhead C4.

We'll have to wait for the first tourney to see if the IC's are as broken as everyone says. I already hear talk of banning MK and Snake, although that might just be people joking around.

One last thing....I want to know all the little useless tricks that Snake has....like, I think he can taunt cancel or something?

 

[k4polo]

Ok, I main Falco.

Let's talk about.

Falco can do a CG combo on Snake. But I'm pretty sure Snake can pull out a grenade to stop it.

Seriously Falco has nothing on Snake. No approach and no camping. And Snake kills him at like 90 with anything.

GG Falco

*Hands Snake the King of Brawl crown.

I agree. Snake is the best in the game. Hes very powerful punishes hard and nicely and he can control the stage. An expert Snake player is going to be one of the hardest matches against any character even Marth. Snake can plant mines and do so many setups with nikita and grenades.

Snake Traps the stage and can make him impossible to approach at times without getting grenaded or mined. You have to watch everything snake does and it is very hard. For example, Think of how many traps snake can do for edgeguarding. (mines, grenades, nikita,mortars) He caneven combine stuff. Overall hes just tough to beat.

 

[VEC]

lol Snake is way more broken then pikachu and MK is broken as hell

 

[Sandwich]

Yeah guys, you heard! HE'S BORKEN!

 

[BDawgPHD]

I agree. Snake is the best in the game. Hes very powerful punishes hard and nicely and he can control the stage. An expert Snake player is going to be one of the hardest matches against any character even Marth. Snake can plant mines and do so many setups with nikita and grenades.

Snake Traps the stage and can make him impossible to approach at times without getting grenaded or mined. You have to watch everything snake does and it is very hard. For example, Think of how many traps snake can do for edgeguarding. (mines, grenades, nikita,mortars) He caneven combine stuff. Overall hes just tough to beat.

I think certain characters wouldn't do too badly against him. I think Dedede would fare very well against him, and Pikachu wouldn't have a bad matchup. I hear Mario is a tough matchup for Snake, too. Kirby would probably do well for himself...nades would help him a lot, and he has ways of spamming and making approaches.

Also, I hear Ike and Snake is a really interesting match....Ike is screwed at long range, and Snake is (kinda) screwed at close range. Ike can probably just space Snake out in close range, having more range AND a disjointed hitbox. I'd say Snake wouldn't even stand a chance were it not for mines.

So, yea....Snake is possibly one of the best characters in the game....but MK would definitely be the best character in the game if Snake wasn't a harsh counter for him.

On a side note, Pikachu has a ridiculously easy time killing off the top of the screen and in general, and it's just difficult to approach Pikachu.

 

[philbobjoe]

Another thing that helps Pikachu against Snake is the fact that Pikachu can chain grab Snake.
Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZp9xjh2irk

 

[BDawgPHD]

That Snake looks like he was scratchin' his balls for the first half of the video XD

I'm pretty sure Snake can pull out a nade, which will detonate when Pikachu attacks...I think it applies to grabs too.

I'm also pretty sure that Pikachu can dthrow to usmash.

 

[St. Viers]

for the record, that mario thing is theory game only. I *hate* mario, so don't accuse me of playing favorites.

But cape+fireball beats his camping, due to no crawl (fireball trajectory) and reflecting w/ cape. That makes snake have to take to the air...and mario has good aerial game (comparatively). I'm thinking its gonna be like the mewtwo fox melee matchup. Mewtwo is clearly the worse character, but mewtwo makes it a hard match regardless.

 

[Wayland]

All people are saying is "snakerapes snakerapes". How does snake ****. In my mind, I can see DDD doing well against snake. Don't tell me that he doesn't, tell me why he doesn't. And when I say why, I don't mean tell me snake's good moves.

 

[BDawgPHD]

for the record, that mario thing is theory game only. I *hate* mario, so don't accuse me of playing favorites.

But cape+fireball beats his camping, due to no crawl (fireball trajectory) and reflecting w/ cape. That makes snake have to take to the air...and mario has good aerial game (comparatively). I'm thinking its gonna be like the mewtwo fox melee matchup. Mewtwo is clearly the worse character, but mewtwo makes it a hard match regardless.

Don't forget about the skeet machine.....just the mere fact that Mario can skeet on people in this game makes him, like, top tier XD

All people are saying is "snakerapes snakerapes". How does snake ****. In my mind, I can see DDD doing well against snake. Don't tell me that he doesn't, tell me why he doesn't. And when I say why, I don't mean tell me snake's good moves.

That's only because it's true. Snake not only just has obscenely good matchups, but is obscenely strong and can have obscene control of the level with mines and projectiles. His whole game is forcing approaches by camping and then ****** in close range.

He absolutely ***** Falco, because Falco's whole game is also controlling the game with lasers and shines, all of which Snake can crawl under. Falco only has a few killing options, whereas most of Snake's tilts kill people and he can edgeguard with traps.

He has a great matchup against Meta Knight because he can limit MK's approach with his control game, MK HAS to approach, and Snake has a lot of range, especially on the ground, which he will stay on, making it difficult for MK to start an aerial game.

I theorize that Dedede would do well against Snake because Dedede doesn't get knocked around as easily, he outranges Snake, he can get through his traps and spam, and he has generally good attacks and some good grabs.

 

[St. Viers]

All people are saying is "snakerapes snakerapes". How does snake ****. In my mind, I can see DDD doing well against snake. Don't tell me that he doesn't, tell me why he doesn't. And when I say why, I don't mean tell me snake's good moves.

As soon as people seem to agree on something, some inconsiderate jerk has to mess up the vibes... >_>

Snake "*****" be cause he takes women by force. Oh wait, you meant to ask why he's such a good character didn't you

He has a great control game, due to ph13r. and By fire I mean his down b, down a, b, side B. (firepower, get it...haha joke). Then we have his tilts, which are amazing, an excellent recovery distance wise--(it is slightly gimpable, but as people experiment with more and more ways to get off it, that will change). His smashes are strong, and thanks to boost smashing he has increased mobility on ground.

because this game seems much less "throw lagless aerials at you" than melee, and is more "lets make you make a mistake," which grenades, missiles, and mines drastically improve the chances of...

great, I'm defending snake. I hate myself now.

Snakes few weaknesses are as follows:

1. Slowish attacks. That isn't too much of a problem, because you don't need to approach people, and his jabs/tilts are fast enough

2. Shortish melee range, whih is made up for by great long range game, and excellent up close game. it does make people who use a sword slightly more annoying though.

3. Bad aerials. Not to be mean, but they lag, and he should only be using them when he needs to. Maybe full-jumped ones aren't so bad, but the laning lag makes them unspammable, and makes them risky to use most of the time.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Ok, there's two ways to fix what you just said.

Ganondorf "*****" because he takes women by force.

or, maybe you meant

Snake "*****" because he doesn't yell out "surprise!" before he does it.

Much better

 

[DarkScarlet]

From my experience online:

Top Tier:
Snake- broken

Upper Tier:
Falco
Toon link
Wolf
Marth
Metaknight
D3
Pikachu
ROB
G&W
Ness
Zelda/Sheik
Pikmin and Olimar


Middle tier

Ice climbers
Ike
Pit
Zelda (Alone)
Sonic
Diddy
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Wario
Kirby
Zamus


Lower tier

Ganondorf
Peach
Sheik (alone)
DK
Fox
Samus
Captain Falcon
PT
Link
Lucario
Bowser
Jigglypuff
Yoshi

This list may surprise you, with Fox being in low tier... however Fox's horrible air game makes him a pretty bad character.
This is just from my online experience.

Also, with Zelda now playable the combination of Sheik/Zelda is rather perfect. So the usage of both will be common.

I'm just basing this off alot of online tournaments and my experiences on Wi-fi btw. Just a personal tier list... Nothing like official.

...

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

keep in mind i am in no way shape or form a pro player. But i am making this list from what i have seen, heard and from my own personal experience.

top:

snake
marth
meta kinght
diddy
Toon link

high:

pit
olimar
falco
fox
Squirtle
Ivysaur
shiek
ddd
wolf

middle:

Lucas
ROB
Ike
Ice climbers
Game and Watch
luigi
Mario
Charizard
sonic
zamus
wario
ness
Lucario

low:

link
Samus
pikachu
capt. falcon
bowser
jigglypuff
kirby
Donkey kong

bottom:

yoshi
zelda
peach
ganondorf

 

[Chris Lionheart]

Hate to say it...

I hate to say it (and I know I'll probably be flamed), but it seems like the only way to really be competitive is to ban Snake in tournaments... The very fact that so much discussion and thought it needed to find characters that can possibly counter Snake sheds light on how broken the character is.

Don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to play a game where the only playable characters are Snake and his FEW counters.

But I will agree with BDawg... D3 may be a good Snake counter.


Edit:
Either that or ban Snake camping.

 

[DarkScarlet]

...

Can you really ban a character though...?
That isn't really fair to all the snake mains...

...

 

[Corner-Trap]

I think certain characters wouldn't do too badly against him. I think Dedede would fare very well against him, and Pikachu wouldn't have a bad matchup. I hear Mario is a tough matchup for Snake, too. Kirby would probably do well for himself...nades would help him a lot, and he has ways of spamming and making approaches.

Also, I hear Ike and Snake is a really interesting match....Ike is screwed at long range, and Snake is (kinda) screwed at close range. Ike can probably just space Snake out in close range, having more range AND a disjointed hitbox. I'd say Snake wouldn't even stand a chance were it not for mines.

So, yea....Snake is possibly one of the best characters in the game....but MK would definitely be the best character in the game if Snake wasn't a harsh counter for him.

On a side note, Pikachu has a ridiculously easy time killing off the top of the screen and in general, and it's just difficult to approach Pikachu.

I think Pikachu and DDD are both even match-ups for Snake, but I think that Snake definitely has the advantage over Ike. He has the better camping and approaching options, and Ike's range means nothing when compared to the speed on Snake's tilts. For the record Snake's Ftilt is disjointed.

Another thing that helps Pikachu against Snake is the fact that Pikachu can chain grab Snake.
Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZp9xjh2irk

Pikachu can CG most characters, so the fact that he can CG Snake as well doesn't mean much.

for the record, that mario thing is theory game only. I *hate* mario, so don't accuse me of playing favorites.

But cape+fireball beats his camping, due to no crawl (fireball trajectory) and reflecting w/ cape. That makes snake have to take to the air...and mario has good aerial game (comparatively). I'm thinking its gonna be like the mewtwo fox melee matchup. Mewtwo is clearly the worse character, but mewtwo makes it a hard match regardless.

Cape can mess up Snakes camping since it'll reflect his nades and missles. And his fireballs can mess up his approach since he can't crawl or boost smash through them. So Snake basically has to approach from the air, but that isn't all to bad since Bair blows through a lot of Mario's attacks. And once he finally gets up close Mario is simply done for. It's surprising how a candidate for best character in the game could possibly go even with a candidate for worst character in the game.

All people are saying is "snakerapes snakerapes". How does snake ****. In my mind, I can see DDD doing well against snake. Don't tell me that he doesn't, tell me why he doesn't. And when I say why, I don't mean tell me snake's good moves.

I don't honestly see either Snake or DDD having an advantage in that match-up.

I hate to say it (and I know I'll probably be flamed), but it seems like the only way to really be competitive is to ban Snake in tournaments... The very fact that so much discussion and thought it needed to find characters that can possibly counter Snake sheds light on how broken the character is.

Don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to play a game where the only playable characters are Snake and his FEW counters.

But I will agree with BDawg... D3 may be a good Snake counter.


Edit:
Either that or ban Snake camping.

Please don't ever make a post like this again. Throughout fighting game history tournaments have always devolved into top tier vs. top tier. Banning Snake would just lead to high tier vs. high tier which solves nothing. Snake is good simply because his match-ups are either even or he's at an advantage, he doesn't actually posses any broken tactics per say.

 

[SaxDude93]

I don't like the idea of banning a character completely. It's not fair to the people who picked said character from day one.

"I'm sorry sir/mam, but your character is now banned from tourneys. You are an idiot for learning all the intricate details and strategies of your character only to banned. I hope you liked your wasted time. You can't get it back. Go spend X amount of hours on another character. You fail. Good day."

And for campy-ness, Snake is sort of a campy fighter by default. He's not the type of fighter who can go toe-to-toe right off the bat.

 

[Chris Lionheart]

Heh... didn't take long.


Please explain why having all advantaged/even matchups and no disadvantaged match ups is not completely broken... I'm pretty sure no character in SSB history has had such a match-up situation.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Heh... didn't take long.


Please explain why having all advantaged/even matchups and no disadvantaged match ups is not completely broken... I'm pretty sure no character in SSB history has had such a match-up situation.

If you didn't know, tier lists are mostly decided upon match-ups, so characters with the better overall match-ups get placed higher on the tier list. In both 64 and Melee the top/high tier characters had few if any bad match-ups, which is no different than Snake. Not only has this happened before within the history of Smash, but within the history of fighting games in general. Please do some research before making your next post.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pikachu has no bad match-ups in SSB64.

Pikachu is number 1 in SSB64.

 

[Samikay]

My friend and I were discussing this earlier, and the whole discussion of a tier list seems to be futile right now. Instead, we should be compiling a web of character matchups. Instead of a tier list, we have a character web. It is common knowledge that brawl is believed to be generally more balanced than its predecessors, but most would agree that some characters are just plain better than others in one on one matchups, be it the ability to chain grab, or some other way that one character can specifically gimp another. Therefore, brawl becomes a game where people are forced to play 2 or even 3 characters equally well in order to effectively counterpick their opponent. It is a veritable rock-paper-scissors match. (Except snake beats all) Once we develop an agreeable character web, coming up with a "Tier List" will be all that much easier, and it will be even more indepth than any tier list has ever been... i think.

 

[Gamer_Mason]

Interesting, but how many people actually USE Snake?
I really think he's a little slow, and as for what I've seen him do, most of his attacks actually look easy to dodge, you just need to remember where he's placing his things that work like motion sensor bombs and to not let yourself get hit by the missiles.

I main Mario, so in my mind, I see plenty of ways to beat him. I have more trouble with the people who are close-ranged than long-ranged......

 

[k4polo]

Interesting, but how many people actually USE Snake?
I really think he's a little slow, and as for what I've seen him do, most of his attacks actually look easy to dodge, you just need to remember where he's placing his things that work like motion sensor bombs and to not let yourself get hit by the missiles.

I main Mario, so in my mind, I see plenty of ways to beat him. I have more trouble with the people who are close-ranged than long-ranged......

You'd be surprise by the number of snake players. The problem occurs when snake "forces" you to an explosion.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

I don't think snake is **** in a can, I mean, I have played a few snakes, they have all been challenging, I have won most of my matches vs him by knowing what they are going to do, snake imo attacks slow enough for you to react to what he's going to do, but hey what do I know, I haven't seen THAT many snakes so I'm not in the best position to talk, but I'm just saying he's not **** in a can for me so far, but that will change going on what you guys are saying.

 

[Spudnick]

Snake may definately seem like the most viable in brawl right now but before you forgot, brawl is still a pretty new game. Right now the best tactic may be projectile camping, which Snake is particularly good at, but in a month the game may change completely from a new discovery. I still think that a lot of characters can hold their own against him it just takes time and practice.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Interesting, but how many people actually USE Snake?
I really think he's a little slow, and as for what I've seen him do, most of his attacks actually look easy to dodge, you just need to remember where he's placing his things that work like motion sensor bombs and to not let yourself get hit by the missiles.

I main Mario, so in my mind, I see plenty of ways to beat him. I have more trouble with the people who are close-ranged than long-ranged......

There are a lot of Snake players. Grenades are only meant to force players out of their position, missiles are mostly used for edge guarding, and mines just allow you control space on the stage. Also I think you missed the part where we said Snake beats out everyone at close range because of the power in his tilts.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Here are a few theories I have on the future of Brawl.

1) Camping will become less important. As players begin to master air dodging and perfect shielding, and more effective approaches are discovered, projectile spamming will become a less dominant factor.

2) Grabs will become more important. In 64 throws could KO, in Melee throws could lead into combos, in Brawl most throws neither KO nor combo. This means that characters who are able to KO or combo off of throws have a slight edge. Grabbing opponents is much easier in Brawl because attacks are more laggy, shields drop faster, and perfect shielding is easier. So characters with good throws can take advantage of Brawl's engine.

3) IC's will be top tier because I say so. Seriously though, they have the best throws in the game, and that combined with my second statement makes it all better. Plus they have high traction meaning they won't get pushed back far when shielding an attack, and there's two of them meaning you get double the chances to land a grab. They're probably only high tier though.

 

[1HKO]

I agree with the list the Capt Falcon Master posted on every single character. Jiggly being low tier just gives me more satisfaction/furthers my commitment to Jiggly. I believe his list to be one of the best tier lists for Brawl so far. Where as my post count may not reflect it I'm actually a pretty decent player.

 

[Koga]

Somehow, i Get the feeling everyone here only plays on FD........

 

[A2ZOMG]

keep in mind i am in no way shape or form a pro player. But i am making this list from what i have seen, heard and from my own personal experience.
Tier list. Refer to original post to see it.

This list has serious flaws.

G&W is much much higher. He's significantly better than all of the high tier characters you listed. Amazing range, STRONG kill options, AMAZING approach, great grab game, AMAZING recovery. He's top tier.

Sonic is low tier. No priority and no good kill options.

Pikachu is really good. Still has very good Smash attacks, good ledgeguarding game, and moves quickly.

Captain Falcon is quite frankly the worst character in the game. He's definitely worse than Ganondorf. His attack speed sucks (yes, it sucks. It's worse than Bowser's). His priority sucks. He can't land his kill options reliably because he can't combo, and his recovery is horrible. Falcon's fast attacks can't kill. Ganondorf however is better because he has fast attacks that KILL AT LOW PERCENTS, and he combos and approaches better than Falcon.

Bowser is also very good. He outranges and outpriorizes SOOO MANY CHARACTERS. He has a broken grab attack, and he's got very good damage and knockback output.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Hell FD sucks in Brawl, it favors projectile campers oo much. Battlefield, Smashville,Yoshi's story are all more balanced

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Here's my revised Tier list, albeit t is kinda stolen from Gamefaqs >_>.

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Falco
R.O.B.
Toon Link

High Tier:
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Pit
Fox
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Lucas
King Dedede



Mid Tier:
Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Lucario
Wario
Kirby
Mario
Bowser
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Peach


Low tier :
lke
Yoshi
Sonic
Samus
Jigglypuff
Link
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

Based off of the Japaneese Tourney rsuts, overall chracter ability, Matchups, and the little US tourney data available