Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Mmac]

Is this Silverflash-x from Gamefaqs? This is his EXACT list, and I think it is the best tier list so far IMO.

Ah, now I see why he's so low.

...

Spoiler

Damn anti-yoshi trolls <_<

 

[cutter]

Silverflash-x is no noob at all; he has done extensive work on tier lists for a while now. I'm pretty sure he could give a solid reason why he put Yoshi in the cellar.

 

[Mmac]

Silverflash-x is no noob at all; he has done extensive work on tier lists for a while now. I'm pretty sure he could give a solid reason why he put Yoshi in the cellar.

Silverflash is intelligent, but when it comes to Yoshi, all he does is post slander and lies about him. Hell, the fact that people believe his recovery is beyond horrible because his SideB doesn't go horizontal in the air anymore is just insane.

I can find so many post from him about Yoshi, but it will take awhile to actually find his posts, being it GameFAQ's and all.

Edit: This is pretty much the only post I can find defending Yoshi's position on his lists:

Yoshi's aerials, as a whole, aren't that fast. Fair is slow, Dair has startup lag, and his Uair has some lag. That's not including the ending lag on his attacks. In a game where most aerials start instantly, he's a bit odd. Ganondorf or Ike may have worse aerial speed, but Yoshi's up there.

Now he claimed Uair, which has 3 Frames of startup, Slow! Not to mention he pretty much justifying Yoshi's Aerials by just Dair, and Fair alone (And for some reason, A "Slow" Uair), even though Uair, Nair, and Bair are basically instant...

Do you think he's really as slow as Ganondorf and Ike?

I really don't want to dig through the garbage, just take my word on it that he's nothing more than a Lazy Troll when it comes to Yoshi.

 

[Grunt]

I don't really wanna read through all the responses to my tier list that I missed when I left to do stuff, so instead I just posted the tier list onto my blog. And yes, apparently mods now can have blogs. Because we are awesome.

My blog be here: http://smashboards.com/news/blogs/38565

Too bad we can't comment on it.
D:

 

[SamuraiPanda]

What? You should be able to comment on it. Hrm... I'll talk to peoples about it.

 

[Grunt]

What? You should be able to comment on it. Hrm... I'll talk to peoples about it.

Supposedly "User Blogs" is this imaginary mini-forum inside the Network News Sub-forum.
but when you back out, nothing's there.
No wait, there's both of your blog entries, one from Zarona, and one from Cashed,

 

[Turbo Ether]

I don't really wanna read through all the responses to my tier list that I missed when I left to do stuff, so instead I just posted the tier list onto my blog. And yes, apparently mods now can have blogs. Because we are awesome.

My blog be here: http://smashboards.com/news/blogs/38565

Read your blog, I agree that Snake isn't 2nd best in the game, and that people just need to figure out how to deal with him. I said the same thing at some point in this thread.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Well, the people who work on this stuff aren't awake right now. So I dunno when, or if ever, the commenting will get fixed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ROFL!!!

You wanted to second Marth and you think he is ranked 8th.

You are officially on crack my good sir.

 

[darkspatan117]

is Bowser better than DK on the tier list panda made he was slighty higher than him

 

[Bowser King]

Yoshi's progressing as a character he's not as bad as people initially thought and unless others start to grow more too, more people will start to think so by the end of the year.

I agree but I still feel that's a little to high. I'm not saying he should be booted to low tier but placed further down in mid tier.
Toon link probably should be, but whats the deal with him? No real buzz, no love, he's more like the tier paper weight, you throw him in High tier and guess thats going to be all right, He should be above yoshi but he's not moving where he is expected to be so that is my mistake.

I don't want him in high tier. Though I really don't see him being below yoshi. Move him up a bit.

Being in a Higher Tier automatically means your a cut above those around you.
Bowser is catagorized with decent characters and he's not being ignored this is most likely still due to my lack of knowledge on him T_T.

I DONT WANT HIM N HIGH TIER. Bowser has improved and deserves to be higher then that. Maybe yoshi and bowser deserve a swap.

In the post.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Read your blog, I agree that Snake isn't 2nd best in the game, and that people just need to figure out how to deal with him. I said the same thing at some point in this thread.

I've been sayin that for a coupla weeks. Takes the SBR to be taken seriously. XD

I like the list but I think in the future Falco will go up and GaW will go... down....

I also think Sonic will go up. (LOL fanboyism) and Ganon will go down.

 

[Nitrix]

But seriously, 6 Months after, why do people believe that Yoshi still belongs there <_<

Everytime anybody says something bad about Yoshi you get 10 people screaming "Yoshi iz gudz!". It is almost seeming like the Yoshi mains are trying too hard and their attempts are turning into jokes.

 

[Skyflyer]

I loved the times when Toon Link was the Snake. People placed Snake in Mid tier LOL.

Yeah, I remember when people used to think pit was top tier too.

Now he's all the way down to mid. lol.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Everytime anybody says something bad about Yoshi you get 10 people screaming "Yoshi iz gudz!". It is almost seeming like the Yoshi mains are trying too hard and their attempts are turning into jokes.

Well it's more like Mmac making 10 people's worth of responses. Man that guys posts a lot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

At least he knows what he's talking about. That's rare on this site. Don't forget that

 

[Gindler]

He is very knowledgeable of brawl.

 

[gantrain05]

Now he claimed Uair, which has 3 Frames of startup, Slow! Not to mention he pretty much justifying Yoshi's Aerials by just Dair, and Fair alone (And for some reason, A "Slow" Uair), even though Uair, Nair, and Bair are basically instant...

Do you think he's really as slow as Ganondorf and Ike?

I really don't want to dig through the garbage, just take my word on it that he's nothing more than a Lazy Troll when it comes to Yoshi.

i think what he's saying is that yoshi has just about the same amount of useful quick arials as ganon, if you think about it, ganon has and instant Uair Nair and Bair, and the other 2 are pretty slow, same for yoshi, i think he might be a yoshi troll, i don't care for the dino myself, but until recently i had no respect for yoshi at all, every yoshi i played was just garbage, until my last tourney i actually saw a good yoshi, now as a former ganon main, i know how it is, people always puttin down your main when you know how capable they are, hell every one of my mains is mid tier or lower, peach, ness, lucas, bowser, mario, ganon, fox. but i know how to use them well, and i usually beat those higher tier characters.

 

[Delta_BP26]

Why is Luigi low? Why is Ike above him? Why is Yoshi so **** low?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I DONT WANT HIM N HIGH TIER. Bowser has improved and deserves to be higher then that. Maybe yoshi and bowser deserve a swap.

I said Higher tier not High tier =P.

Everytime anybody says something bad about Yoshi you get 10 people screaming "Yoshi iz gudz!". It is almost seeming like the Yoshi mains are trying too hard and their attempts are turning into jokes.

It's like a child trying to tell people his father is beating his mother and everybody lawlz because they think the father is a very nice person.

Yoshis are trying to tell people yoshi is being underrated and people lawl.


If snake isn't found to be worse than second best by atleast this time next year I'll take a kick to the nuts.

 

[jiovanni007]

Why is Luigi low? Why is Ike above him? Why is Yoshi so **** low?

It also takes tournament results to get placed into the tier list, Luigi and Yoshi don't put up. I mean I even used to be a regular on this thread because people didn't believe Kirby (my main) was any better than mid-mid, but now that he's 12th in the tourney rankings, people finally recognize that he's better than a lot of other characters. As far as Luigi goes, his ranking is a bit generous since he's one of the lowest on the tournament ranking scene

And seriously, Yoshi mains just need to stop posting and win more tournaments if you truly believe Yoshi to be higher than bottom. I've only met one Yoshi in the tourney scene and he definitely a pro, but still got 2-stocked by my Kirby. That should say something, Yoshi isn't good. I wouldn't doubt yoshi being the worst in the game. I've met Falcon's, G-dorf's, and even Link's that could hustle. At least Link has a mean camp game though he always has a hard time finishing the deal. Yoshi def = worst in the game.

 

[cutter]

@ Mmac: Here is a very good explanation from Nigerian Star Storm (aka Longhorn on Gamefaqs) on why he thinks Yoshi is bottom tier. Note that Silverflash and NSS knew each other very well on Gamefaqs and created very similar lists to each other (probably why Sliverflash also thinks Yoshi is bottom tier)

NOTE:I'm actually going to try and say this by being as little of a **** as possible.

Because using actual Data which Tier lists are based on...... where else could we really put him?

His tournament results are bad, and in the summer rankings he hasn't even PLACED yet while characters even worse than him have (CF >_>). And before you bring in the "Well that's because no one uses him" argument, That's the fault of the Yoshi community. Perhaps they need to step their game up, come to tournaments and show us how good Yoshi really is instead of the boatload of the whining that goes on when he's placed at the bottom of a Tier list, or maybe Yoshi really is that bad.

The thing is, how can we honestly think he's good if you guys don't put out in the Metagame?

His Matchups are bad, and before you ask yes, I do say this from the Matchup chart COMBINED with my own personal research/insight and some from intellectual posters. Even if you changed all of his disputed even matchups to advantages, he'd still have worse matchups than a wide majority of the characters in the game. In terms of relaivity, in terms of just showing which characters have good and bad matchups, that chart is fairly accurate for the most part.

Now as for the potential part.....does that really even matter until it's actually applied in the tournament scene? Hell look at Toon Link, he was looking to be pretty dominant, but what happened? He's barely placing like, at all (Altough granted, this actually might be a case where the simply underused argument is viable, his Matchups are great for the most part) Sure, all of can debate and discuss a character's strengths and weaknesses here, but what truly matters is that what happens when it's actually applied in a tournament setting. Sure theorycrafting is nice and can be very productive, but it's all moot if experimental and factual evidence proves otherwise. Take the ICs and Diddy for example, many thought with the Infinte Grabs that the ICs would become broken and maybe even Top Tier, but when you actually look at tourney results, the truth is shown that it's far from that, because simply the best of players know to not get grabbed and the fact that they are relatively hard to learn drives away others, keeping them from being consistently used. Diddy with his hax Nanerz mindgames was thought to be a very capable and possibly Very High Tier canadate, but again look at tourney results as of now, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Now look at a character like Ike, I personally hate him with a burning passion, and think he's way too laggy and predictable to be of any use, but the thing is he's still placing relatively well aside from that. Now i'm not denying that these characters aren't good or bad, and in fact they are actually starting to rise/drop in performance respectively, but we cannot rely our opinions on just theorycraft alone, we have to see how these things actually play out in a real life situation and make judgements from there.

Bottom Line: Tier Lists need to be based on the Present, not the future



For what it's worth, I don't think Yoshi will stay bottom tier, and hopefully will rise to at least low. As a character in terms of potential he isn't all that great, but certainly not amongst the likes of Link Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff. But the problem is, you Yoshi mainers need to show us what he can do, not just be a no show and give us no choice for his common placing.

That post was made back on June 29 when NSS was referring to Ankoku's character rankings at the time. As of today, Yoshi has moved up a bit to tie at #26 but the fact remains Yoshi has very poor tournament results. If you go to the OP, AlphaZealot talks about how a tier list is made primarily with tournament results and then matchups.

 

[bigman40]

And seriously, Yoshi mains just need to stop posting and win more tournaments if you truly believe Yoshi to be higher than bottom. I've only met one Yoshi in the tourney scene and he definitely a pro, but still got 2-stocked by my Kirby. That should say something, Yoshi isn't good. I wouldn't doubt yoshi being the worst in the game. I've met Falcon's, G-dorf's, and even Link's that could hustle. At least Link has a mean camp game though he always has a hard time finishing the deal. Yoshi def = worst in the game.

That's already being worked on. I ask you, who is this "pro" you beat? Most people already know he doesn't have the qualities to be bottom. Just because you don't doubt Yoshi being in bottom doesn't mean he really is.

@cutter: it's a really old post, and it shouldn't matter since alot has changed during the date of that post.
1. Yoshi's matchups have been re-worked (please go to the Yoshi boards if you must argue about the matchups). They have gotten clearance from other mains, and they DO NOT give the qualities as bottom tiers.
2. Yes, the tournament results are low, however, compared to the previous times (he was unranked twice then) he's improved. Don't use something old to refute new things that has come by.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I was drinking at the time I read SP's list, and when I saw Sonic 4th bottom I honestly thought I'd read it wrong.
I don't get it :\
22nd out of nearly 40 in tourney results = 4th bottom amirite?
Do any BRoomers even main Sonic/know anyone who isn't turd with him? lol

 

[Morrigan]

And seriously, Yoshi mains just need to stop posting and win more tournaments if you truly believe Yoshi to be higher than bottom.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[jiovanni007]

That's already being worked on. I ask you, who is this "pro" you beat? Most people already know he doesn't have the qualities to be bottom. Just because you don't doubt Yoshi being in bottom doesn't mean he really is.

@cutter: it's a really old post, and it shouldn't matter since alot has changed during the date of that post.
1. Yoshi's matchups have been re-worked (please go to the Yoshi boards if you must argue about the matchups). They have gotten clearance from other mains, and they DO NOT give the qualities as bottom tiers.
2. Yes, the tournament results are low, however, compared to the previous times (he was unranked twice then) he's improved. Don't use something old to refute new things that has come by.

He wasn't a pro as in a widely recognized figure but he knew what he obviously knew what he was doing and seemed like he had been with Yoshi as long as I had been with Kirby. Mostly since he used the ATs that Yoshi mainers consider to help Yoshi out (Pivot-grabbing, grab-release, etc.) but still got an epic failure. When people were placing Kirby high-low and low-mid, the Kirby community stood together and actually produced results (myself included) instead of saying "that's being worked on." The Yoshi community has been working on it since March and nothing has happened yet, it's time to face facts.

 

[Gindler]

I couldn't agree more.

I agree with you too. But worst in the game? Ha but yeah we're seriously lacking in tourney results, hopefully that'll change soon

As for jiovanni, I've beaten some pretty pro kirby's with yoshi too. Most pro one came down to the wire but still a win is a win. But no argument in Kirby probably being a better character.

 

[Clai]

I've been sayin that for a coupla weeks. Takes the SBR to be taken seriously. XD

I like the list but I think in the future Falco will go up and GaW will go... down....

I also think Sonic will go up. (LOL fanboyism) and Ganon will go down.

Down to what? How can Ganondorf go down any further than he is right now?

And Game and Watch is way too versatile with high-priority attacks to go down. I think that within time, G-Dub could actually pass Snake in the rankings; it's just that Snake is just too popular in tournaments for that to happen.

Sheik and Samus definately have potential. I'm honestly surprised that Sheik is always placed so low. I guess turning into Zelda for kills doesn't qualify as solely using Sheik, no matter how long Sheik had been used that match?

And Sonic will go up as well.

I think the general rule of thumb is that aggressive characters usually start to rise and surpass campers as the metagame advances. It's usually due to people find new ways to approach while there's only so much you can do with a projectile...

 

[jiovanni007]

I agree with you too. But worst in the game? Ha but yeah we're seriously lacking in tourney results, hopefully that'll change soon

As for jiovanni, I've beaten some pretty pro kirby's with yoshi too. Most pro one came down to the wire but still a win is a win. But no argument in Kirby definitely being a better character.

fix'd

But as far as yoshi being the worst in the game, the rest of the bottom tier characters have some redeeming factors that outweigh them being better than Yoshi. G-Dorf actually has quick moves regardless of what people think. Uair, bair, jab, ftilt, and dtilt always come out decently quick and don't have ridiculous lag. That plus G-dorf also kills in 4-9 hits. I've literally fought a G-dorf as Kirby and died in 4 hits, the finisher being a fsmash. Link has a reliable camp game but is hampered by difficulty killing and terrible recovery. Falcon lack priority and kill power, but is still able to land hits due to his fast ground speed and relatively quick attacks. Jiggz may be worse than Yoshi in Brawl on paper, but Jiggz has tourney standings.

 

[bigman40]

He wasn't a pro as in a widely recognized figure but he knew what he obviously knew what he was doing and seemed like he had been with Yoshi as long as I had been with Kirby. Mostly since he used the ATs that Yoshi mainers consider to help Yoshi out (Pivot-grabbing, grab-release, etc.) but still got an epic failure. When people were placing Kirby high-low and low-mid, the Kirby community stood together and actually produced results (myself included) instead of saying "that's being worked on." The Yoshi community has been working on it since March and nothing has happened yet, it's time to face facts.

Since you gave me no name to this player, I won't comment about it. Now. In regards to producing the results, I'm sorry if we are spread out that we can't pay as much money ($100 or more) to travel just to place. We have about 8 mains that are actually getting results for the rankings (not sure of the actual number). I'm planning to host my own tournaments to help out. I don't know what facts you're looking at, but I have only said that he's low tier until tourney placings can boost him to the actual placing.

 

[Chaco]

fix'd

But as far as yoshi being the worst in the game, the rest of the bottom tier characters have some redeeming factors that outweigh them being better than Yoshi. G-Dorf actually has quick moves regardless of what people think. Uair, bair, jab, ftilt, and dtilt always come out decently quick and don't have ridiculous lag. That plus G-dorf also kills in 4-9 hits. I've literally fought a G-dorf as Kirby and died in 4 hits, the finisher being a fsmash. Link has a reliable camp game but is hampered by difficulty killing and terrible recovery. Falcon lack priority and kill power, but is still able to land hits due to his fast ground speed and relatively quick attacks. Jiggz may be worse than Yoshi in Brawl on paper, but Jiggz has tourney standings.

Well, that is where you are wrong. Yoshi has way many more redeeming factors than they do. Hate to bring this up again, I feel cocky over it, but the tech I found actually makes Yoshi like the second fastest char in the game. So you take away the speed factor and add that in. Plus, Yoshi has alot of redeeming qualities of basic game mechanics, I mean his aerials are godly. You can string heavy chars to the heavens and back. The CG's are helpful, but it's the move you kill with after the CG that matters. Like Mmac's find of the falling fair release, it works on 13 chars, almost half the cast.

 

[Gindler]

fix'd

But as far as yoshi being the worst in the game, the rest of the bottom tier characters have some redeeming factors that outweigh them being better than Yoshi. G-Dorf actually has quick moves regardless of what people think. Uair, bair, jab, ftilt, and dtilt always come out decently quick and don't have ridiculous lag. That plus G-dorf also kills in 4-9 hits. I've literally fought a G-dorf as Kirby and died in 4 hits, the finisher being a fsmash. Link has a reliable camp game but is hampered by difficulty killing and terrible recovery. Falcon lack priority and kill power, but is still able to land hits due to his fast ground speed and relatively quick attacks. Jiggz may be worse than Yoshi in Brawl on paper, but Jiggz has tourney standings.

Ha thanks for the fix

Yeah Ganon's pretty good, I horse around with him and he does hit like a tank for sure.
Link is my "thirdary" and he's actually pretty good, nice camp game and a fast Fsmash (if you do only first slash of course, it's nearly unpunishable).
Yoshi is pretty decent on paper, like most other mains will agree that yoshi does pretty well against him (excluding zeldas). But those tourney standings are quite atrocious, so sure yoshi can go in bottom tier...for now anyway

 

[jiovanni007]

Since you gave me no name to this player, I won't comment about it. Now. In regards to producing the results, I'm sorry if we are spread out that we can't pay as much money ($100 or more) to travel just to place. We have about 8 mains that are actually getting results for the rankings (not sure of the actual number). I'm planning to host my own tournaments to help out. I don't know what facts you're looking at, but I have only said that he's low tier until tourney placings can boost him to the actual placing.

You live in ATL according to your bio thing and the other guy lives in south Florida, both of those places have decent smash communities >.>

I live in Louisiana and still manage to handle mine. As for the Yoshi I played, I can't recall his name since there were 40 people at the tournament and he was one of the people that I hadn't met before. Plus since I wiped to floor with him, I didn't really make the effort to get to know who he was.

13 isn't almost half the cast, that's a third of the cast >.>

and with all of that he still doesn't do well. Execution is the other half of doing a technique.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Samurais comment box works BTW

 

[darkspatan117]

hey samurai do you think that DK is better than Bowser

 

[bigman40]

You live in ATL according to your bio thing and the other guy lives in south Florida, both of those places have decent smash communities >.>

I live in Louisiana and still manage to handle mine. As for the Yoshi I played, I can't recall his name since there were 40 people at the tournament and he was one of the people that I hadn't met before. Plus since I wiped to floor with him, I didn't really make the effort to get to know who he was.

13 isn't almost half the cast, that's a third of the cast >.>

and with all of that he still doesn't do well. Execution is the other half of doing a technique.

Decent in melee.... >.> Seriously, most of them that happen are while I'm at college (more than 4 hours away with no car). It's not as decent as you would think (probably changing since I'm starting to see more occuring). Still no comment on the yoshi guy...

 

[viparagon]

Why will GaW go down? aerials rivaling MK's + Amzing dthrow+ probably best smashes in the game= down?

Sure he's light, but he's alot harder to kill than other characters due to his dair, great recovery and great horizontal air speed.

 

[darkspatan117]

hey samurai is dk is better than bowser and Pit

 

[SamuraiPanda]

ROFL!!!

You wanted to second Marth and you think he is ranked 8th.

You are officially on crack my good sir.

Uh... I'm considering Lucas, too. Tiers mean absolutely nothing, because skill and knowledge of your opponent can help you overcome those gaps. Although I have a tier list, I believe that every character in Brawl, even the top tiers, has quite a bit of potential they haven't shown yet. The lower you go on the tier list, the more true this generally is.

hey samurai do you think that DK is better than Bowser

Yes.

And other questions/comments can now be posted at the blog entry. I'll get around to explaining reasons later.

 

[darkspatan117]

Why Is Lucas underplayed