Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ShadowLink84]

Maybe not, but he does make sense. I personally think that the gale boomerang is the worst projectile on the game. Link's strength is great. He's got great tilts and smashes, decent enough speed, and awesome metagame with 2 1/2 projectiles to choose from. But the thing that really brings him down is his recovery. I mean... Even Yoshi's got a better up-b than he does (and that's really saying something). All in all, I dont think Link deserves to be on the bottom of the list (*cough cough* Jiggles), But he definately shouldn't be placed anywhere above bottom tier.

You do know that the boomerang is a versatile projectile. the defensive and offensive purposes of it is pretty good and its much more versatile than the arrows.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I would agree with the Jiggz thing, she's a lot better than she was given credit for initially. She does, however, suffer the huge limitations of no projectile and no great approach (besides bair, maybe). In a camping game, that's not something you want.
I do think that she will rise once the emphasis on air games in Brawl increases.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think with her horizontal air movement she can try to do some mindgame-fake approach stuff...like Wario

 

[SamuraiPanda]

If you've ever seen his posts then you'd know he's very serious. I've seen him mention before about how Link's metagame isn't evolving and also mentioning how underrated Bowser is. He's dead serious I'm sure.

Indeed, I am completely serious. At first I was confused why some people thought it was a joke, and then I remembered what people's tier lists look like in this topic.

Panda, I really don't see how Fox can be so high when he has two terrible match-ups (+5 for Pika and Zamus against him basically). I really can't think of another character with such a terrible problem. The match-ups are similar to Marth vs Mewtwo or ICs vs Pichu. Although he has overall good match-ups vs Snake, MK, etc..., I really don't see how high he can be when picking Pikachu will instantly make a Fox player require a secondary.

Same can be said about Bowser/DK/Samus/Mario/Luigi against D3, right? Hell, even D3 has a nearly unwinnable matchup against ICs. Having a few one-sided matchups does not make a character unplayable. Nearly every tournament player has a second they can rely on, so it doesn't matter that Fox requires one, as most people already have one.

Panda, just because you and your friends can't use Link well, that doesn't solidify that he's bad. That could mean he's hard to use, you guys don't know how to use him, or you could be right that he's just bad. Legan, Deva, and Izaw have figured him out.

I'm going to have an opportunity to play Legan soon, and I'm looking forward to it. And perhaps my statement came out wrong; Link is simply not viable in tournaments at the current level. Does that mean he'll forever be bad? No. Does that mean nobody can win with him? No. How many tournament level Links do you see? Extremely few. I based this tier list on high-level tournament play, which is what a tier list SHOULD be. Right now Link has too many problems and struggles against too many characters. I'm sorry, but he's simply not very good right now.

Also, if it only took a few players to make a character rise in the tiers, then Taj should have made Mewtwo jump up much higher. But even Taj couldn't make Mewtwo that much better.

Maybe not, but he does make sense. I personally think that the gale boomerang is the worst projectile on the game.

Gale boomerang is incredible, and is one of Link's few saving graces.

Sorry Panda, but I will take Gimpy's word over yours...

We all love Gimpy, but he quit playing Brawl soon after release, and only picked it up again a few days ago. Also, he mostly plays Shiek in Brawl, not Bowser.

That said, <3 Gimpy.

I wasn't complaining about his placements. If he placed Bowser very high, I'd be happy to hear what his reasons are. He is a serious poster after all, so it shouldn't be a problem for him.

It's just that I can't believe that Samurai posted such a controversial tier list without explaining his reasons to us. He has probably discussed this in the SB, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no backup for his claims, at least in this thread. If he was the serious poster I thought he was, he wouldn't post such tier list without posting out why. Maybe he is just trying to make controversy, so he can comeback and post his reasons (I hope).

Like I said before, I didn't (and still don't) see the list as controversial. I also thought it was common knowledge by now that Bowser was quite good. He can space incredibly well with his tilts, he can edgeguard with his fair, he can kill at low percents, he has a fairly easy to land powerful Fsmash (yes, even in high level play you can land that once or twice per game at least), his side B is awesome at racking damage plus gives him the advantage in position, his fire breath can rack damage and space and even edgeguard some characters, his down B is versatile and has its uses (although they are admittedly limited), his up B out of the shield is incredible plus lets him compete even against fast characters that would normally destroy him, and he has plenty of guaranteed hits out of grab release that make KO'ing some characters much easier. Thats only SOME of what makes Bowser a pretty good character. And yet I haven't seen anybody say what makes Bowser a bad character besides "but its Bowser..."

 

[exidid]

Like I said before, I didn't (and still don't) see the list as controversial. I also thought it was common knowledge by now that Bowser was quite good. He can space incredibly well with his tilts, he can edgeguard with his fair, he can kill at low percents, he has a fairly easy to land powerful Fsmash (yes, even in high level play you can land that once or twice per game at least), his side B is awesome at racking damage plus gives him the advantage in position, his fire breath can rack damage and space and even edgeguard some characters, his down B is versatile and has its uses (although they are admittedly limited), his up B out of the shield is incredible plus lets him compete even against fast characters that would normally destroy him, and he has plenty of guaranteed hits out of grab release that make KO'ing some characters much easier. Thats only SOME of what makes Bowser a pretty good character. And yet I haven't seen anybody say what makes Bowser a bad character besides "but its Bowser..."

*yay*

People think that Bowser was buffed into a Low tier character. So when they see Bowser being placed very high and above some good characters makes them wonder, thus making it controversial.

I have yet to see a good Bowser, so I probably don't know exactly what his pros are. But I'll just take your word in this for now. :'D

Actual discussion about the characters is much better than just posting a tier list though.

 

[Exia 00]

So basiclly, a tier list is of no relevence to me since i dont play anyone at high tourney level skill ? I dont know if i took that the wrong way. I assume its "mainly" about experience and leans more towards match ups when at the higher level.

 

[Zankoku]

He's dead against Dedede; his Up+B recovery, though quite good at horizontal recovery, is rather lacking vertically, making him dead against gimpy-type trajectory edgeguards like Meta Knight's dair or any meteor; he's a gigantic target for all manner of projectiles; his killing options though appearing to be varied all require him to approach the other character in a straight and relatively slow path, with the possible exception of Side+B out of shield. Not to mention, he's Bowser.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Samurai why is Mario above Ike?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm bored, so I'm going to share a tier list with you guys. I made this list with input from DSF a couple of weeks ago. Its one of the best lists I've seen IMO. Although DSF and I both believe Snake isn't 2nd best in the game, we just think he's 2nd best for now. We also think that G&W is going to drop down, and DSF personally thinks Wario is the 3rd best in the game. Also, we both agreed that its way too early for an accurate tier list.


Metaknight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.

Wario
Falco
Marth
Lucario
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong

Kirby
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Olimar
Pit
Wolf
Fox
Zelda
Luigi
Toon Link
Peach
Zamus
Mario
Ike
Sheik
Ness
Lucas

Yoshi
Samus
Ganondorf
Pokémon Trainer
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link

Ok, I see where you're coming from for most of this, but a few points.

Mk deserves a tier of his own, I don't think there's any more significant rift in ability then MK to the character right below him.


In Match-ups he's probably number 2, and in current standings he's number 5, with an overall dead heat for 4th. Marth definitely should not be ranked below any character that doesn't beat him in standings.

Needs a Zelda/Sheik slot (because neither Sheik nor Zelda is so much better then the other that switch isn't worth it, you just gotta get some breathing room to switch).

Bowser is good, but not quite THAT good, his lack of rankings definitely mean he can't merit such a high slot.

No, Sonic is NOT that low, and Neither is Yoshi.

If only because of disjointed hitboxes and Gale Boomerang, Link does not merit final slot.

You over-estimate Ganondorf.

Like I said before, I didn't (and still don't) see the list as controversial. I also thought it was common knowledge by now that Bowser was quite good. He can space incredibly well with his tilts, he can edgeguard with his fair, he can kill at low percents, he has a fairly easy to land powerful Fsmash (yes, even in high level play you can land that once or twice per game at least), his side B is awesome at racking damage plus gives him the advantage in position, his fire breath can rack damage and space and even edgeguard some characters, his down B is versatile and has its uses (although they are admittedly limited), his up B out of the shield is incredible plus lets him compete even against fast characters that would normally destroy him, and he has plenty of guaranteed hits out of grab release that make KO'ing some characters much easier. Thats only SOME of what makes Bowser a pretty good character. And yet I haven't seen anybody say what makes Bowser a bad character besides "but its Bowser..."

That I'll agree with.

I always found Bowser terribly underrated in Brawl, that said, I do think you overrate him by a fair amount. Too easily gimped and too bad at dealing with projectiles for anywhere NEAR that high.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not to mention, he's Bowser.

tH1s iS t3H pRo0f!!!

Seriously - Bowser is a high risk, little reward character.

 

[Mmac]

It's not that we think that Bowser Sucks, but he's just too high than he should be. I don't think he's Top 15 Material....


Also, I remember about 2 Months back that you said that Yoshi was around the Middle of Mid tier in your list, but now he's top of low. he's done nothing but improved, so why the sudden unexpected change?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

He's dead against Dedede; his Up+B recovery, though quite good at horizontal recovery, is rather lacking vertically, making him dead against gimpy-type trajectory edgeguards like Meta Knight's dair or any meteor; he's a gigantic target for all manner of projectiles; his killing options though appearing to be varied all require him to approach the other character in a straight and relatively slow path, with the possible exception of Side+B out of shield. Not to mention, he's Bowser.

I'd post how most good Bowsers try to avoid and get around those things, but the short of it is: Thats why he's only mid tier :D

Samurai why is Mario above Ike?

Because Mario is better?

It's not that we think that Bowser Sucks, but he's just too high than he should be. I don't think he's Top 15 Material....


Also, I remember about 2 Months back that you said that Yoshi was around the Middle of Mid tier in your list, but now he's top of low. he's done nothing but improved, so why the sudden unexpected change?

Most other characters have improved just like Yoshi has, but mostly at a faster rate than him. Yoshi can catch up in the future, and I definitely see quite a bit of potential in him, but this is a current tier list, which I tried to leave unaffected by my personal opinion of potential. At this time, Yoshi is low tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ So Bowser is mid tier, CURRENTLY?

 

[darkspatan117]

don't forget that wario is released into inescapable combo such as marth tipper fmash, bowser usmash, and more just note that any 1 can release combo wario(some have to grab him when he offstage) so I think he should go down a little but not much

 

[exidid]

Wario is a pain to grab though. And his current placements in tourneys are high enough to keep him where he is right now.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Last I checked Ike has more kill moves, far superior range, better priority, and better tourney results.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

^ So Bowser is mid tier, CURRENTLY?

Bowser does much better against much of the top/high tier characters in the game than many other characters (obviously D3 is the exception). So yes, he is most definitely mid tier.

While his placing may be a bit "too high" you people need to recognize that there are 37 characters in this game to rank, so obviously there are going to be problems of ranking within the tiers themselves. Hence why I said that it is far too early to make an accurate tier list at this point.

 

[rathy Aro]

SP, can you explain why Sonic is THAT low? I thought he'd made solid progress to cover his weaknesses. I was thinking he was bottom of mid or somewhere in low tier. I didn't think he was bottom for a moment.

Also is Sheik/Zelda considered when placing either of the characters or has that tactic not come up enough at a competitive level to be considered?

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

It's not that we think that Bowser Sucks, but he's just too high than he should be. I don't think he's Top 15 Material....


Also, I remember about 2 Months back that you said that Yoshi was around the Middle of Mid tier in your list, but now he's top of low. he's done nothing but improved, so why the sudden unexpected change?

The others have improved too though right? If so then they should move up, the list doesn't revolve around Yoshi after all. He might creep up a couple spots, but I don't think he'd quite reach the middle.

 

[darkspatan117]

good but his badest matchup for what i ve seen yet is bowser if he grab him it done since wario can be regrabbed the same way ness his regrabbed by marth in plus of being released combo that mean don't get grabbed on a side note he can also regrab ivy and charizard

 

[Kiwikomix]

good but his badest matchup for what i ve seen yet is bowser if he grab him it done since wario can be regrabbed the same way ness his regrabbed by marth in plus of being released combo that mean don't get grabbed on a side note he can also regrab ivy and charizard

..........What?

 

[studly]

i dont want to sound too noobish when i ask this...but

did we find something that completely disables the captain ...cuz in my crew we have a falcon main who rocks....even with the nerfing

every tier list i see has him on bottom
i mean ....worst character in the game? ....come on

 

[ShadowLink84]

Give him a moment to explain Sonic's placing.

 

[Samuelson]

Thats probably the best tier list ive seen. I would put ZSS a little bit higher on the list though but thats just me.

 

[Mmac]

The others have improved too though right? If so then they should move up, the list doesn't revolve around Yoshi after all. He might creep up a couple spots, but I don't think he'd quite reach the middle.

The others have improved, but Yoshi is improving a hell of a lot more at a faster rate compared to mostly everyone.

 

[darkspatan117]

Last I checked Ike has more kill moves, far superior range, better priority, and better tourney results.

Ike while having the best range in the game he actually has a fatal drawback is attack speed is the overall slowest of all char excluding jab, bair, nair and utilt so that my opinion why ike don't do well in tourney

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am awaiting the explanation for Sonic's placement.

 

[Xeze]

i dont want to sound too noobish when i ask this...but

did we find something that completely disables the captain ...cuz in my crew we have a falcon main who rocks....even with the nerfing

every tier list i see has him on bottom
i mean ....worst character in the game? ....come on

yeah, I also wonder why Falcon is considered the worst in Brawl.

 

[darkspatan117]

sonic is actually very fast with good approach(ASC) but the reason sonic has difficulty killing,smash are not very fast and they are some of his best kill move his approach his seriously limited if the char as a constant grab it box move like the bite or a very spammable move like g&w dtilt and another note sonic while having a awesome recovery if he his grab out of spring he will no be able to recover himself again

 

[darkspatan117]

sorry for double post but the reason Cf his nerfed to hell it because of the lack of hitsun in the game so in brawl cf aerial don't combo into each other like they could in melee also his smash are slow he have no priority knee(main kill move) is nerfed and his recovery while it better it still gimpable but note if you want to be good with cf auto cancel his aerial and always jab it very hard to interumpt and come out very fast

 

[Wyvern-x]

Only Ike's Fsmash and Usmash are really laggy and even then there are slower attacks. Ike's Dsmash is actually pretty fast. His tilts are around the same speed as the over heavies (minus Snake). Most of his aeriels auto cancel. None of his aeriels have noticeable startup lag except Fair whose massive range makes up for it. Ike's tourney results > Mario's results.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

The others have improved, but Yoshi is improving a hell of a lot more at a faster rate compared to mostly everyone.

Yeah but they were way ahead of him to begin with. So if Yoshi had an EXTREME spike in his game, he'd move up a bit (relatively speaking), but since they've improved as well it somewhat dulls Yoshi's accomplishments, so he wouldn't move up as much.

 

[Skyflyer]

I'm bored, so I'm going to share a tier list with you guys. I made this list with input from DSF a couple of weeks ago. Its one of the best lists I've seen IMO. Although DSF and I both believe Snake isn't 2nd best in the game, we just think he's 2nd best for now. We also think that G&W is going to drop down, and DSF personally thinks Wario is the 3rd best in the game. Also, we both agreed that its way too early for an accurate tier list.


Metaknight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.

Wario
Falco
Marth
Lucario
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong

Kirby
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Olimar
Pit
Wolf
Fox
Zelda
Luigi
Toon Link
Peach
Zamus
Mario
Ike
Sheik
Ness
Lucas

Yoshi
Samus
Ganondorf
Pokémon Trainer
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link

Bowser>Olimar?

lol

 

[PKPower]

ROFL. Lucas is Bottom of low tier! ROFL!! Ignorance is bliss I suppose. Lucas is low high/high mid definitely.

 

[studly]

sorry for double post but the reason Cf his nerfed to hell it because of the lack of hitsun in the game so in brawl cf aerial don't combo into each other like they could in melee also his smash are slow he have no priority knee(main kill move) is nerfed and his recovery while it better it still gimpable but note if you want to be good with cf auto cancel his aerial and always jab it very hard to interumpt and come out very fast

yeah all i really knew about the cpt. nerf from melee to brawl is that allot of the melee falcon mains quit because of it....

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Look, look at me, Im Chronopenguin, pay attention to me!
>.>

Metaknight
Mr. Game & Watch

R.O.B.
Snake
Falco
Marth
DDD
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Pikachu

Wario

Kirby
Donkey Kong
Pit
Olimar
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Zamus
Fox
Luigi
Peach
Mario
Ike
Sheik
Ness
Yoshi
Lucas
Toon Link
Bowser
Samus


Pokémon Trainer
Sonic
Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

 

[darkspatan117]

Only Ike's Fsmash and Usmash are really laggy and even then there are slower attacks. Ike's Dsmash is actually pretty fast. His tilts are around the same speed as the over heavies (minus Snake). Most of his aeriels auto cancel. None of his aeriels have noticeable startup lag except Fair whose massive range makes up for it. Ike's tourney results > Mario's results.

Ok i forgot to tell you his over b recovery is gimpable easily while dsmash is faster than most of is move it don't even deal more damage than ike jab his knockback isnt too great he don't have any combo aside from nair to bair,jab,grab is at aren t too great and yeah ike has a lot of reach in his fair space it and it really safe on block

 

[Xeze]

sorry for double post but the reason Cf his nerfed to hell it because of the lack of hitsun in the game so in brawl cf aerial don't combo into each other like they could in melee also his smash are slow he have no priority knee(main kill move) is nerfed and his recovery while it better it still gimpable but note if you want to be good with cf auto cancel his aerial and always jab it very hard to interumpt and come out very fast

and the Nipple Spike is also impossible to do. And because there's no L-cancel anymore, he cannot SHFFL (and he was very good at it, IMO).

 

[TheEliteSmasher]

Look, look at me, Im Chronopenguin, pay attention to me!
>.>

Metaknight
Mr. Game & Watch

R.O.B.
Snake
Falco
Marth
DDD
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Pikachu

Wario

Kirby
Donkey Kong
Pit
Olimar
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Zamus
Fox
Luigi
Peach
Mario
Ike
Sheik
Ness
Yoshi
Lucas
Toon Link
Bowser
Samus


Pokémon Trainer
Sonic
Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Game and watch and R.O.B over snake?

Explain please. This will be good.

 

[darkspatan117]

snake is the best after mk lol