Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[MrEh]

Can't Snake just cypher father away from the stage?

Then Yoshi will spike him.

Or let go of his cypher and grab the ledge instead of going up?

Yoshi can eat him out of his Double Jump.

 

[Mmac]

Lol at Yoshi mains calling Pit's wavedash worthless while Yoshi's is somehow amazing.

And just out of curiousity, can someone go into detail on this 0% kill Yoshi has on Snake and Metaknight? I just really want to know.

Nobody said it was useless. Also, Wingdash = Angelic Step? I see Wingdashing, and I see more Wingdashing, but I don't see the other thing....

And he doesn't have it on MetaKnight, Just Falco, Snake, and a few more characters nobody cares about. It can pretty much be described like this

Falco:

1) Grab
2) Chaingrab to Ledge
3) Release
4) Unavoidable Fair Spike
5) Take Bread
6) ???
7) Profit!

Snake:
1) Grab
2) Chaingrab to Ledge
3) Release
4) Grab Snake again after Cypher
5) Release
6) Laugh as Snake desperately explodes himself to make it back
7) Grab him again, causing a Cypher Grab Break
8) Dead Snake
9)

Spoiler

10HappyYoshi's!

Can't Snake just cypher father away from the stage? Or let go of his cypher and grab the ledge instead of going up?

He won't make it, and He can't grab the ledge without being grabbed himself. His hitbox is actually taller than he actually is when falling.

 

[cj.Shark]

ts different But its Mostly subtle. Its pretty much a wavedash but most people prefer wingdash because It has unique characteristics That compliments pit

 

[Chaco]

Not to be biast, but Pit's wingDash is fairly useless from what I've heard other Pit mains say. So don't go spouting when the rest of your kind isn't behind you with this. And I do believe the ching gives it away, as I use that to predict it, and I constantly play with an excellent Pit.

 

[Kiwikomix]

No offense here, but if someone could keep Snake from coming back just by repeatedly grabbing him, I would think we'd know about it by now.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

"Biased," dammit. "Biased!"

Smooth Criminal

 

[MrEh]

No offense here, but if someone could keep Snake from coming back just by repeatedly grabbing him, I would think we'd know about it by now.

Yoshi is unique because of his strange grab release, and that his tongue extends beyond the ledge.

 

[Deleted member]

Wingdashing isnt a wavedash. Its not nearly as useful as yoshis.

Also, i disagree with most of mmacs statements =P Sorry mmac, ur friend's snake sucks at recovering, a decent snake wont be caught in that grab so easily. I also dont believe the cg on snake exists, way too much time to jump out.

But, yoshi does out camp snake, and do pretty good against him(i think snake is like 4.5-5.5, and mk is 4-6).

No way yoshi is gonna get NEAR diddy, olimar etc. Yoshi has too many character flaws that hold him back.

Yoshi has pretty good matchups, all of them are winnable, he does relatively well against quite a few commonly used characters, which helps him alot in tournaments.

 

[Mmac]

Burnt, you never believe in anything I do or say ;_ ;

 

[cj.Shark]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagemoon View Post

WingDashing

I don't think you've looked into this tech enough to fully describe a counter argument no offense. You describe it like it should be applied as a wave dash. Which is not how this tech should be used. It does work for spacing, but not nearly the same caliber as a wave dash.

There are other things that make this tech useful though. First off that wind push effect can mess up an aerial approach. Lets take a real situation. My friend who plays Mario is approaching me with nair. He's about to hit me. I can put my shield up and block the attack and then counterattack with f-smash out of shield. However, my friend can auto cancel his nair and jab combo me before i can get an f-smash in. Therefor I'm left having to block everything.

In this same situation. I can also Wingdash slightly backwards as his is at my head level. When i do this, the wind push effect keeps him in the air just a bit and leaves him hanging right there to be punished. I've now set myself up for a perfect opportunity to f-smash him. He can't avoid this and the wind push effect basically gave me a sort of wall to punish him.

Another way of using this is to use it as an approach against a projectile. For this example i will take pikachu. His full jump neutral b is very campy and effective. I could easily just try to mirror the electricity back at him. I don't know if anyone has played a pikachu that does this, but its really not effective and wont stop the pikachu. When you use a mirror shield, you cant follow up after the move. It basically just adding damage (assuming you hit the character) and it normally ends up with an even trade. The mirror shield will leave you vulnerable due to its lag if you pull it out expecting a projectile.(i just realized this was probably not the best hypothetical situation, but you get the idea)

In the same situation, I can wingdash to cancel out this projectile and follow up with a forward smash, or w/e else i want to really. Wingdashing is really good at approaching projectiles, even pits arrow is canceled out with a wing dash. Basically its an effective way to close space while going through a projectile. This does take some timing though, about the same timing as a powershield, maybe with a few extra frames. Powershielding works, but you don't close that gap and cant punish fast enough. With wingdashing you can actually hit your opponent before they get out of their lag time from the projectile.

Finally, wingdashing prevents you from getting grabbed. I find this most helpful against long ranged grabs such as link, or ice climbers (they can combo you up to 70% with a grab you you gotta be cautious). Taking into consideration that you can do this move out of a shield, you can avoid being grabbed if you can predict it right (big if i know..). However there is also times when its obvious that your opponent wants to shield grab you, take that into considerations and you can do some pretty cool stuffs. If your opponent dodges, most the time you can get the down smash off as they come out of the dodge, if they don't dodge early enough, then you push them out of range with wing push.

if Your friend doesnt do it fine By me. The Best Pit players Do use it. its a matter of prefernce. Im not gonna Lie. half of the good pits dont even bother because Its simply not easy to do and they dont find it necessary. almost every other AT is the same way. doesnt mean they arent worth it

 

[Chaco]

Wingdashing isnt a wavedash. Its not nearly as useful as yoshis.

Also, i disagree with most of mmacs statements =P Sorry mmac, ur friend's snake sucks at recovering, a decent snake wont be caught in that grab so easily. I also dont believe the cg on snake exists, way too much time to jump out.

But, yoshi does out camp snake, and do pretty good against him(i think snake is like 4.5-5.5, and mk is 4-6).

No way yoshi is gonna get NEAR diddy, olimar etc. Yoshi has too many character flaws that hold him back.

Yoshi has pretty good matchups, all of them are winnable, he does relatively well against quite a few commonly used characters, which helps him alot in tournaments.

QFT.

And to elaborate more on the Diddy, and Olimar things. Yoshi's aerials OP Olimar's aerial game and his bair can kill all the Pikmin. And also egg roll, but do not use it all the way at Olimar or you will be grabbed and strung halfway to heaven. And for diddy, this over defense kicks in you are trying to camp on Diddy with eggs and pivot grab him into a chain.

 

[Deleted member]

Yea, i believe ur a beast =P And i believe in some of ur matchup stuff, just not MK. And i like disagreeing with people =)

From experience, the snake cg doesnt seem to work. Maybe i have slow reaction -.-

Chaco i wasnt talking about matchups. I know all about the matchups. I meant in terms of tier placing

 

[Chaco]

Chaco i wasnt talking about matchups. I know all about the matchups. I meant in terms of tier placing

I now realize that. -.-

 

[Kiwikomix]

From experience, the snake cg doesnt seem to work. Maybe i have slow reaction -.-

I thought this too, also about the Dedede chain. I also think that if characters can escape the chain, then it's NOT A CHAIN.

Again, sorry to be a parade-pisser.

 

[MrEh]

From experience, the snake cg doesnt seem to work. Maybe i have slow reaction -.-

It works for me, but not all the time. It has some pretty difficult timing. I'm trying to get it down perfectly...

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm liking Wingdashing more and more. Hey, how long do you think it would take to pick up Pit?

 

[cj.Shark]

i wouldnt pick him up unless you really like playing as him. hes not the best character but he is one of the most technical. problem with that is although you can play him at high levels your gonna have to work for alot of it. picking him up take about a few days to get the feel for his general style. keeping him however (as alot of spammy noobs have found out) is pretty hard

 

[ShadowLink84]

Better recovery, thus waaaaaaaay better ledgeguarding. Way better range. More in terms of safe kill moves. Way better grab range. Does not have a blindspot at the ledge or below him.

A waaaaay better recovery does not automatically equate to better ledgeg uarding. It is af act that while his recovery looks amazing, it isn't, his is very good but not excellent due to his poor horizontal movement speed.

Safe kill moves? Yes but their range isn't very good either.
Yeah you can chuck a Bair out in 2 frames but its not hard to sp[ace the fat guy when he has his back turned to you inthe air.
Grab range is waaaay better. DDD's gran range isn't that much better compared to marth's (who is 6th) the difference in grab range is negligible.

Use a Usmash and it will hit opponents on the ledge ior below the ledge.

Marth can rack up damage more quickly, has much better safe moves and his recovery is much faster than DDD with invincibility frames. Let alone the fact that because he is lighter, he will rarely end up below the stage.

DDD's only real weakness he has that Marth doesn't have is being easily comboed due to being big and a fast faller. Also to lesser importance having some more landing lag on aerials. Both however are pretty lousy at actually scoring KOs.[/qupt]
DDD isn't a fast faller in comparison to Falco and Fox and Wolf. He falls pretty average like Kirby.

He has more landing lag than more characters.
Land during a Dair, Uair you'll lag.
Bair and Nair are the only lagless aerials he has.
Fair has a bit of a startup.

His range in the air is little compared to on the ground and his kill moves are either slow to start up or they do not have as much range in comparison to his other moves and so are more difficult to land.

The fact that you can land comboes greater than the amount of damage he canr ack on you pushes away the whole idea of him being a heavy weight. He's not like Snake who is faster and a heavy weight.

Whoa, that's the first time I've ever seen anyone say SOMEONE had better range than DDD.

Overall Marth does have better range.
You compare all of Marth's moves to DDD's and overall Marth does have better range.

Also DDD's attack speed is a lot better than you're giving it credit for. His U-air, N-air, B-air, and D-air all come out pretty fast.

Except that his Uair and Dair stay out for a good amount of time which means if you whiff it you get punished.
Nair has limited range, Bair is really the most note worthy, and DK beats that one out in terms of range.

His F-air comes out a bit slower, but it is so big and powerful that barely matters.

How does it not matter? unless your opponent isn't paying attention you will rarely hit them with a Fair. It has startup time which means they can easily airdodge it and get away from DDD.

Tilts have really gay range and come out pretty much no slower than Marth's tilts.

DDD's Dtilt<Marth's D tilt DDD's is not faster
DDD's Ftilt=Marth's Ftilt Reason: DDD's does not cover as much area even though how far it extends is notable. It leaves DDD open from above as well
DDD'sUtilt=Marth'sUtilt. Marth;'s tilt covers better area and has better range but DDD's is just as fast if not faster and has much more killing power.

DDD's U-tilt also comes out nice and fast. It's fairly safe, has a great hitbox, and it's a much better kill move than anything Marth has. D-tilt is also a better kill move than what Marth has when undiminished.

Too bad it covers a very limited area so it rarely hits unless your opponent is up close and personal constantly.

Utilt does not have a great hitbox, compare it to Marth'ds and while it has great power, the hitbox is more limited.
It is fast so its good for OOS.

Marth's tippered Smashes and stuff are all EXTREMELY situational. Largely because it's not easy to hit with, and also because these attacks are easily punished on block.

Extremely situational?
Are any of DDD's kill moves as fast with as much range?
Usmash yes.
Dsmash no
Fsmash hell no
Bair? Limited range
Dtilt? Limited range and not until higher percentages

yeah they are unsafe but who cares, his Fair, Nair all have killing power when tipped and they come out very quickly so even if you don't tip, you're safe and you can rack up damage and pressure.

Marth can maintain his advantage more easily oh and Marth's ^B can kill and with invincibility frames, it means you have a good chance of killing the opponent with it.

Nah, that's not accurate. Marth has fewer matches that are unbalanced. He doesn't usually get outright ***** by anyone, which is good, but he rarely ever has a significant advantage on anyone. DDD however has very significant advantages on a lot of the cast, while only having just a few noticeably bad matchups.

Marth overall has better matchups. Yes he doesn't have a large amount of significant advantages, but he has no matchups in which he gets countered.

DDD's bad matchups offset his matchups where he counters the opponent.
Also name the matchups where he goes 70:30 or more?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'm bored, so I'm going to share a tier list with you guys. I made this list with input from DSF a couple of weeks ago. Its one of the best lists I've seen IMO. Although DSF and I both believe Snake isn't 2nd best in the game, we just think he's 2nd best for now. We also think that G&W is going to drop down, and DSF personally thinks Wario is the 3rd best in the game. Also, we both agreed that its way too early for an accurate tier list.


Metaknight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.

Wario
Falco
Marth
Lucario
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong

Kirby
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Olimar
Pit
Wolf
Fox
Zelda
Luigi
Toon Link
Peach
Zamus
Mario
Ike
Sheik
Ness
Lucas

Yoshi
Samus
Ganondorf
Pokémon Trainer
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link

 

[DanGR]

You think bowser is better than Olimar? I'm going to cry.

 

[Snail]

You think bowser is better than Olimar? I'm going to cry.

^ This >__<

Bowser is better than in Melee but that high? x__x

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ROB > Falco / Marth also seems kinda strange to me...

 

[ROOOOY!]

That list = :\

 

[Gindler]

Bowser is rather good. Only two of his aerials have tremendous landing lag (Bair and Dair). One of the few characters where every Special is a good attack (not even MK has that...cape kinda stinks). His combo breaked (bowser bomb) can kill the comboer at low percents. Great smashes, all powerful anyway. Great tilts, all fast and strong with great priority and knockback. Recovery is good with invincibility frames on his fortress (if that's true). He's a solid character but he just doesn't do well against snake or MK and that can be a problem these days.

Oh...and the bowsercide? Soo awesome.

 

[Nestec]

Yeah, I was playing as Bowser a little while ago, I was impressed.
I was really liking his Fair, comes out pretty quick and good for edgeguarding.

 

[Delta_BP26]

SamuraiPanda, I'm sorry, but I thought that list was horrible.

And why the bloody hell is Link the worst in the game on your list?!

 

[SamuraiPanda]

And why the bloody hell is Link the worst in the game on your list?!

Because Link is extremely bad? I've tried him, DSF has tried him, my friends have tried him, etc. He's fun as hell... but he's just bad. On the contrary, Falcon is much better than people think, and so is Jiggles.

 

[exidid]

I hope he is just messing with us XD

 

[Nestec]

I agree about Jigglypuff, at least.

 

[Xiivi]

I hope he is just messing with us XD

If you've ever seen his posts then you'd know he's very serious. I've seen him mention before about how Link's metagame isn't evolving and also mentioning how underrated Bowser is. He's dead serious I'm sure.

Panda, I really don't see how Fox can be so high when he has two terrible match-ups (+5 for Pika and Zamus against him basically). I really can't think of another character with such a terrible problem. The match-ups are similar to Marth vs Mewtwo or ICs vs Pichu. Although he has overall good match-ups vs Snake, MK, etc..., I really don't see how high he can be when picking Pikachu will instantly make a Fox player require a secondary.

 

[exidid]

I wasn't complaining about his placements. If he placed Bowser very high, I'd be happy to hear what his reasons are. He is a serious poster after all, so it shouldn't be a problem for him.

It's just that I can't believe that Samurai posted such a controversial tier list without explaining his reasons to us. He has probably discussed this in the SB, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no backup for his claims, at least in this thread. If he was the serious poster I thought he was, he wouldn't post such tier list without posting out why. Maybe he is just trying to make controversy, so he can comeback and post his reasons (I hope).

 

[Mmac]

I agree that Bowser is underrated, but he's still WAAAAAAAY too high for my liking

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic's position makes me cry.

Even more disheartening is Link's.
Panda is bored... so he's probably messing with everyone...I hope

 

[Grunt]

That's a good list.

 

[DanGR]

Panda, just because you and your friends can't use Link well, that doesn't solidify that he's bad. That could mean he's hard to use, you guys don't know how to use him, or you could be right that he's just bad. Legan, Deva, and Izaw have figured him out.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hmm it makes me wonder at times.

 

[Justblaze647]

Panda, just because you and your friends can't use Link well, that doesn't solidify that he's bad.

Maybe not, but he does make sense. I personally think that the gale boomerang is the worst projectile on the game. Link's strength is great. He's got great tilts and smashes, decent enough speed, and awesome metagame with 2 1/2 projectiles to choose from. But the thing that really brings him down is his recovery. I mean... Even Yoshi's got a better up-b than he does (and that's really saying something). All in all, I dont think Link deserves to be on the bottom of the list (*cough cough* Jiggles), But he definately shouldn't be placed anywhere above bottom tier.

 

[Adapt]

Kirby
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Olimar
Pit
Wolf

Sorry Panda, but I will take Gimpy's word over yours...

This quote is in response to someone saying Bowser is good.

until people learn his limitations (and there are a lot) and he becomes stale and dumb - easy to fight against and shut down.

he's amazing vs inexperienced players - but people who really know what they are doing in the matchup can shut him down far to easily

 

[Marios My Bro]

To be honest guys i dont find metaknight that good but it seems people use him very usefull. Ive seen people just repeadtely tap b and up to hit people with his tornado type attack but that can be countered if timed right. I agree hes good but i found better characters that i thought may be on the top

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You haven't playerd a skilled Metaknight then...otherwise you'd know, what he can do...