Here's the proof:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169415 (ROB Boards)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515 (Snake boards)
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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169415 (ROB Boards)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515 (Snake boards)
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
You are so Naive. Fox, Marth, and Sheik are now considered significantly better than Falco and Peach, to the point where Putting Marth Shiek and Fox in top tier and then putting Falco, Peach, and Captain Falcon in high tier would not be surprising at all.
Like was said before, the tier breaks represent large gaps between the character groups. Ganondorf (the bottom of mid tier), is a lot better than Link (the top of low tier). The gap between high tier and top tier is a lot smaller in comparison, but most people can agree at least that Fox, Marth, and Sheik are all better than Peach and Falco.
Wait what? You guys are talking about Melee, right?
i.E.
Smash Apprentice
^ Still would like to know people's opinions on ZSS
Yeah man.
Pikachu is top tier.
Pubik Vengeance
Smash Journeyman
I think I mostly agree with you. She is great, but she lacks some good kill moves. Side B is good and maybe bair, but she is still below average on that. I for one have played most the time as Zamus, and then Lucario, because I used to main Zamus but decided to try others out. What I have come to is I think Lucario is just a tiny bit better then Zamus, but they should be near each other in the tier rankings. Maybe Lucario just fits my style more and I am better with him, I'm not sure.
ROFL. Yea ok. And that is so proven by tournament results.
QNZ_RAFA
Smash Ace
Look...H2YL got something right when they gave METAKNIGHT his own tier list labeled "GOD TIER."
Chillen and M2K co-signed on that. I support that 100%...he's RIDICULOUS. And I have played every character considered low tier and I must say they should make a new tier list for Ganon labeled "ROCKBOTTOM TIER" he's the freaking worst. SLOWEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME, and nowhere near the strongest. and in terms of defense...i think mario is tougher than ganon. its RIDICULOUS how messed up that character is. poor ganon. He forgot to the check the expiration date on that Triforce of Power. hahaha
Chillen and M2K co-signed on that. I support that 100%...he's RIDICULOUS. And I have played every character considered low tier and I must say they should make a new tier list for Ganon labeled "ROCKBOTTOM TIER" he's the freaking worst. SLOWEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME, and nowhere near the strongest. and in terms of defense...i think mario is tougher than ganon. its RIDICULOUS how messed up that character is. poor ganon. He forgot to the check the expiration date on that Triforce of Power. hahaha
Boolossus
Smash Ace
^^^Sonic is worse than Ganondorf, imo^^^
ZSS really isn't bad. However, her side B can be punished by quicker characters and is really predictable if spammed. Her recovery is okay if you know what you're doing. But if you're recovering from underneath the stage without a second jump, all the opponent has to do is hang on the edge and you're dead. That's really frustrating.
When you throw fox trotting into your game with her, it opens up alot of possibilities, grabs for one. Fox trotting with the armor pieces is an inredible mind game, because your opponent is just waiting for you to throw them. Because all of her KO moves are aerials (other than side B) it can be difficult to land them against small, quick charaters like metaknight. I find that most of my kills on MK come after a Dsmash stun.
ZSS really isn't bad. However, her side B can be punished by quicker characters and is really predictable if spammed. Her recovery is okay if you know what you're doing. But if you're recovering from underneath the stage without a second jump, all the opponent has to do is hang on the edge and you're dead. That's really frustrating.
When you throw fox trotting into your game with her, it opens up alot of possibilities, grabs for one. Fox trotting with the armor pieces is an inredible mind game, because your opponent is just waiting for you to throw them. Because all of her KO moves are aerials (other than side B) it can be difficult to land them against small, quick charaters like metaknight. I find that most of my kills on MK come after a Dsmash stun.
QNZ_RAFA
Smash Ace
sonic is worst than ganon...... how do you support that?
Atleast sonic can say he's the quickest in the game. which makes grabs alot easier. plus he does reach out to grab on top of his speed. ganon still has that T-Rex grab. sonic's comeback is amazing while ganon's is trash. you need alot of skill to play ne1 of these characters. but at the end of it if A=B and A plays Sonic and B plays Ganon....A will win always.
Atleast sonic can say he's the quickest in the game. which makes grabs alot easier. plus he does reach out to grab on top of his speed. ganon still has that T-Rex grab. sonic's comeback is amazing while ganon's is trash. you need alot of skill to play ne1 of these characters. but at the end of it if A=B and A plays Sonic and B plays Ganon....A will win always.
gantrain05
Smash Master
murderchoke combo > wizards foot ko = win, sonic is crap.
Shök
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 2,251
QNZ_RAFA
Smash Ace
im not denying they did sonic dirty in this game. but if your gonna say Sonic is Crap then Ganon is that Liquidy diarrhea crap that smells god awful.
and sonic doesnt have bad A$$ combo's?? u obviously havent seen a good sonic yet then. spring into up air, into jump up air. ridiculous.
and sonic doesnt have bad A$$ combo's?? u obviously havent seen a good sonic yet then. spring into up air, into jump up air. ridiculous.
On most arguments, Ganon supposedly gets destroyed by projectile characters, which is like, half the cast.
I will argue, however, that with proper prediction, followups and post-followups out of Ganon's side-B can be very damaging and/or lethal, so an amazing Ganon main can pull hard punishments once there's an opening.
Sonic has pretty good mobility. Mobility that can be used to feint, bait, chase, grab, gimp, screw up opponent's spacing, and avoid hits. Since I don't know how to play him, I'm not really sure how an amazing player can use mobility to get around priority issues.
Yeah, he's a POS.
Also, Ganon's comeback is generally much quicker and painful than Sonic's comebacks. Sonic's recovery however, is a different matter.
edit1:
^wtf? That's not even a legitimate movement for Sonic. He can't spring and THEN jump? lol.
edit2:
July tourneys:
I will argue, however, that with proper prediction, followups and post-followups out of Ganon's side-B can be very damaging and/or lethal, so an amazing Ganon main can pull hard punishments once there's an opening.
Sonic has pretty good mobility. Mobility that can be used to feint, bait, chase, grab, gimp, screw up opponent's spacing, and avoid hits. Since I don't know how to play him, I'm not really sure how an amazing player can use mobility to get around priority issues.
Yeah, he's a POS.
Also, Ganon's comeback is generally much quicker and painful than Sonic's comebacks. Sonic's recovery however, is a different matter.
edit1:
^wtf? That's not even a legitimate movement for Sonic. He can't spring and THEN jump? lol.
edit2:
July tourneys:
Redirect me to recent Ganon wins?
It was ment to be humorous...but apparently only one person found it funny.
The fact that you would call top tournament players Fanboys is idiotic, so I made an idiotic reply in turn.
I'm sorry you can't think.
QNZ_RAFA
Smash Ace
hahah..ur right. i think it wuz a DASH MOVE , broke out of it w/ up air then did the UP B into another up air. i dont remember but it wuz awesome.
Sonic is 15 places higher than Ganon, in tourneys alone. You don't have to be Nostradamus to see the result, if you take Sonics better match-ups and the fact, that he has more than just 3 useful moves, into account.
figures lol.
Spindash > U-air>spring U-air is a common star KO setup but it's airdodgeable, and some characters with higher hitstun resistance can attack Sonic out of it, reverse the setup and kill him.
It's a pretty newby combo (on some characters, it's a true-hitstun combo) anyway lol.
10grabreleases
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
It was a joke...
Hylian, a G&W fanboy...
It's an Ad hominem logical fallacy to discredit people based on that, especially when it's NOT TRUE.
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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Oh god, this thread has fallen to a new low. Ganon is better than Sonic? Yeah, and I'm the ****ing king of Siam.
Especially considering my name, sig, and avatar all point to me obviously being a G&W fanboy.(<--Sarcasm)
It's like...he has no common sense.
gantrain05
Smash Master
ganon is god tier with meta slightly below him just because he's got the batman cape, then its everyone else.
cutter
Smash Champion
When he said Luigi > G&W I had to step in. Also, sigged your quote.
It's cut. The lower part can't be read...Also, sigged your quote.
cutter
Smash Champion
sad face! I must fix it.
When will an official tier list come out?
When will an official tier list come out?
That's up to the SBR...
freeman123
Smash Lord
I know you can't stand the fact that someone might have a different opinion than you, but you don't have to call me names.
The last tier list for Melee had Falco above Marth and Sheik.
Which is more BS, because the last Melee tier list had Fox and Falco in Top and Marth, Sheik, and Peach in high. Falco is not significantly better than Marth, Sheik, and Peach.
You can never come up with an exact order of the characters. Even if in a year from now everyone still thinks Meta Knight is the best character, and maybe he is, we still don't know who the 15th best character is. How would you possibly determin that?
Let's just say that it's decided that Donkey Kong is the 15th best character. That would mean that there are 14 characters who are undisputedly better than DK and 22 characters who are undisputedly worse than him. How could you possibly determine that?
And then there's the rock, paper, scissors rule. Let's say A has the advantage against B, B has the advantage against C, and C has the advantage against A. But A, B, C, all do equally well against D through Z. So how do you determine what order A, B, and C should go in? All you can do is say that they're the best characters. You could rank them as A>B>C, and then change it in a year to B>C>A because you got bored of looking at the old list. That's basically what keeps happening to the Melee tier list. "Hey, let's put Falco above Marth and Sheik for shock value because we're bored of the current tier list."
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Of course you are a G&W fanboy.
Anytime you try to defend a character you MUST be a fanboy!
Zinc Elemental
Smash Journeyman
Hmmm, woops. I read it once, chuckled, and then thought "wait, maybe he's serious". Should've gone with my gut. :/
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Snake
Very High Tier:
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Lucario
Wario
High Tier:
Olimar
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Pit
Toon Link
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Zelda
Mid Tier:
Fox
Peach
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Ness
Charizard
Ike
Squirtle
Luigi
Mario
Ivysaur
Low Tier:
Pokemon Trainer (overall)
Sonic
Yoshi
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Sheik - only reason she's not low tier is because her Down B is kick ***.
Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf and CF are the only real bottom Tier candidates, Sheiks lack of kill moves is a problem but im sure that can be remedied.
Much as I love my Ganny CF might be better than him, simply due to fluidity which ganondorf doesn't have .
Complain if you want, I'd like to hear opinions.....with stuff backing them up.
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
Snake
Very High Tier:
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Lucario
Wario
High Tier:
Olimar
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Pit
Toon Link
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Zelda
Mid Tier:
Fox
Peach
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Ness
Charizard
Ike
Squirtle
Luigi
Mario
Ivysaur
Low Tier:
Pokemon Trainer (overall)
Sonic
Yoshi
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Sheik - only reason she's not low tier is because her Down B is kick ***.
Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf and CF are the only real bottom Tier candidates, Sheiks lack of kill moves is a problem but im sure that can be remedied.
Much as I love my Ganny CF might be better than him, simply due to fluidity which ganondorf doesn't have .
Complain if you want, I'd like to hear opinions.....with stuff backing them up.
Zinc Elemental
Smash Journeyman
First of all, I assume you meant bottom tier, because you put her in low.
Second, the ability to transform into Zelda does not make Shiek good. It makes Zelda/Shiek good (who, imho, should be a character seperate from the two).
Regardless, Sheik is not nearly that bad. She is very good at racking up damage. She has problems KOing and a rather meh recovery, but she's not nearly as low as you put her.
Jigglypuff and Link need to be at the bottom, above Ganondorf. Even if you don't think they're bottom tier, they still need to be the bottom of low tier. Link is held back MASSIVELY by his god awful recovery. He gets very little out of his Up-B, which, in combination with his fast falling speed, makes it very easy for someone to gimp him with a simple edgehog/edgegaurd once he's off the edge of the stage. Jigglypuff, while good in melee, was simply gimped in just about every department, with the exception of her rollout getting better (woo). She's lost range, diminishing returns hurts her a lot with her fair and bairs (her most commonly used moves). She can't combo into rest like she used to. She also doesn't even have the best air speed any more (Yoshi is winner).
I think the "sacred seven" people have been putting in their tier lists as the two two tiers is very accurate. MK needs to be in a tier of his own. Snake is above G and W (for now, at least) and Diddy, Lucario, and Wario need to be move out of the top two tiers.
Xeze
Smash Ace
Snake is above G&W. Dedede and Lucario are above Diddy Kong and Wario should be a little lower.
Personally, I think ZSS, Lucas and Ness are above Peach (her recovery relies much on her floating ability). Ike is powerful yes, but has an easily gimped recovery. I think he should be high-low tier.
Sheik is not that bad. yes she lacks on a reliable finisher but she ranks up damage in a jiffy and her ftilt has nice range. And I don't know why Captain Falcon is considered the worst.
cutter
Smash Champion
Yes, I definately agree MK is in a different class compared to the other characters.
IMO, the sacred seven should be split like this:
* Tier:
Metaknight
S Tier:
Snake
G&W
A Tier:
Marth
King Dedede
Falco
ROB
DDD and Marth seem interchangable to me though. Then you can put a few more characters in A tier and the rest in B, C, D, etc.
IMO, the sacred seven should be split like this:
* Tier:
Metaknight
S Tier:
Snake
G&W
A Tier:
Marth
King Dedede
Falco
ROB
DDD and Marth seem interchangable to me though. Then you can put a few more characters in A tier and the rest in B, C, D, etc.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Lol, King Dedede is clearly better than Marth.
His grabbing game is much better, and he's a lot better at edgeguarding. He's slightly better at KOing too IMO, but both have a pretty hard time directly scoring KOs.
His grabbing game is much better, and he's a lot better at edgeguarding. He's slightly better at KOing too IMO, but both have a pretty hard time directly scoring KOs.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
I'll take those into consideration.
My problem with Sheik is I've been using her a bit out of late to get a feel for her, and her recovery and lack of kill moves is severely beginning to be a problem.
Ya I know "but ur not pro!" stuff like that is seen by everybody though.
I probably shouldn't of put Link above her since I use him a bit and I know his recovery is BS'ing him.
However he can kill better, has greater range, his falling speed helps his aerials a lot too.
I dunno about Snake over G&W.
Game and watch doesn't have that extra gimp factor on his recovery, while Snake has options to prevent this and survive out of this, it's still a factor.
G&W does pretty well against the majority of the cast to the extent that while Snake has a chunk load of stuff going for him so does G&W and this would probably show if the tournament results were higher, and I don't doubt that they will be by next year or so.
Marth's weakness's arent as hard on him as DDD's are though from where I stand.
My problem with Sheik is I've been using her a bit out of late to get a feel for her, and her recovery and lack of kill moves is severely beginning to be a problem.
Ya I know "but ur not pro!" stuff like that is seen by everybody though.
I probably shouldn't of put Link above her since I use him a bit and I know his recovery is BS'ing him.
However he can kill better, has greater range, his falling speed helps his aerials a lot too.
I dunno about Snake over G&W.
Game and watch doesn't have that extra gimp factor on his recovery, while Snake has options to prevent this and survive out of this, it's still a factor.
G&W does pretty well against the majority of the cast to the extent that while Snake has a chunk load of stuff going for him so does G&W and this would probably show if the tournament results were higher, and I don't doubt that they will be by next year or so.
Marth's weakness's arent as hard on him as DDD's are though from where I stand.
exidid
Smash Journeyman
Peach's recovery is good even without the floating. Actually, I try not to float when getting back on stage, so I can use it on the ledge.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I actually kind of like the idea of showing the gap between G&W-Snake and the rest of the cast. In tournaments there's a clear difference. G&W and Snake are the only characters ever directly compared to MK in how good they are (all though the conclusion always goes in MK's favore, no other character is even brought for juxtaposition)
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