Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Gindler]

You live in ATL according to your bio thing and the other guy lives in south Florida, both of those places have decent smash communities >.>

I live in Louisiana and still manage to handle mine. As for the Yoshi I played, I can't recall his name since there were 40 people at the tournament and he was one of the people that I hadn't met before. Plus since I wiped to floor with him, I didn't really make the effort to get to know who he was.

13 isn't almost half the cast, that's a third of the cast >.>

and with all of that he still doesn't do well. Execution is the other half of doing a technique.

Central Florida actually, and yeah we do have a great smash community here. Place 1 mile down the road (1 minute car trip) does 1 brawl tourney a month with somewhere near 100 entrants each time (well last time i went was 2 months ago and that was about right). But it is a bit more difficult to place with 100 people instead of 40, and chances are you're better than me (still trying to get sidestepping down to a science instead of using yoshi's crappy shield). and yeah a good number of kids around here are really good so top 10% of each tourney is a major challenge to get into and I have yet to do it.

Yep bad tourney results by my part.

 

[cutter]

Plus, Yoshi has alot of redeeming qualities of basic game mechanics, I mean his aerials are godly.

Yoshi's aerials are not godly. An example of a godly aerial would be G&W's Turtle.

 

[darkspatan117]

Is Toon link will be lower just for is inabilty to create setup for his kill move zair to fsmash,usmash is decent but a smart opponent will Di and Toon Link won't be able to combo

 

[l0n3r]

I think Toon Link deserves at least the bottom of high, but hey, remember when he was considered AMAZING!? Those were the days...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Uh... I'm considering Lucas, too. Tiers mean absolutely nothing, because skill and knowledge of your opponent can help you overcome those gaps.

That arugment is flawed.
its basically saying i you know your opponent you will win.
What happens if your opponent knows as well?
Let alone the act that even if you do have that element of surprise what is to stop your opponent from adapting to your strategy?

Although I have a tier list, I believe that every character in Brawl, even the top tiers, has quite a bit of potential they haven't shown yet. The lower you go on the tier list, the more true this generally is.

Except while all the characters have potential the ability to put that potential to use may vary from character to character.

And other questions/comments can now be posted at the blog entry. I'll get around to explaining reasons later.

K

 

[darkspatan117]

hey Shadow do you think Sonic is better than PT because I think he has a good advantage

 

[ShadowLink84]

*shrug*

No clue since i dno't see good PT's much if at all.

 

[Chaco]

Yoshi's aerials are not godly. An example of a godly aerial would be G&W's Turtle.

Well ,the turtle is only one move, and it's whored so much it's easy to predict.

 

[Snail]

Well ,the turtle is only one move, and it's whored so much it's easy to predict.

You can predict it all you like, too bad you can't do much about it.

Yoshi's aerials are pretty good but nowhere near "godly".

 

[Kiwikomix]

Bair isn't godly. But it's still a great approach.
Uair is decent. It just doesn't have that big of a hitbox. If only it were like a Mario or Falcon uair rather than a Fox or Falco.
Fair is awful. It pretty much screws over Yoshi's forward-facing air game.
Nair is good and has a great hitbox but doesn't have enough range in front.
Dair would be great if it didn't have landing lag and, again, if it had more range.

Overall, his air game is up there in the ranks, but it can't really compare to the likes of MK or G-Dub.

 

[Mmac]

@jiovanni007: I wouldn't be surprised if that Yoshi you were talking about couldn't play him worth crap. Just because he knew of some of those AT's, doesn't make him good or professional. A good example would be against this Pit user about 2 Days ago. He knew how to Wingdash and all of that, but I constantly 2-3 Stock him. Hell, it's the most things I see with Snakes, Mortar Slides, but has absolutely no skill at all. If he was "Good", He should have be at least on par on your Kirby.

Also you really justifying Jigglypuffs rankings on just one Top4, which has already been expired? Jigglypuff is actually unranked now!


@cutter: I can deal with NSS though. He actually had logical reasons at the time (Yoshi was poor in the tournament department back then 5 Months ago). He basically just saying "He doesn't have the Tournament Results, so I can't place him any higher". I can respect that, because it was true back then.

Silverflash however, Uses his Tournament Results back then to justify why he sucked back then, and continues to do so even though he has been clearly been improving in his game, somethings just making up crap altogether. This is why I hate him because he does nothing more but troll against him.

And yeah, Ganondorf actually does have some quick airs. But however I think his message was "Yoshi is slower than a frozen snail". Plus lag in his Uair? Seriously?


Finally, one more thing I don't get. He's about High Mid of E Rank now, and has better matchup's than Mario, Jigglypuff, Bowser, Ness, Link, Samus, Luigi, and Especially Ganondorf and Falcon. Yet, I see almost all of these character get put ahead of Yoshi, sometimes entier Tiers above him. Especially since Yoshi has better tournament results than Luigi, Ness, Bowser, Samus, Link, and Luigi. Either be consistent with the Results, or just drop the entire thing altogether.

Edit: I agree that Yoshi has Good Airs, but he doesn't have anything that stands out like G&W's/Dedede Bair. He still has better airs than about a majority of the cast

 

[Zinc Elemental]

13 isn't almost half the cast, that's a third of the cast

I'd count MK as multiple people. XD

 

[Chaco]

You can predict it all you like, too bad you can't do much about it.

Yoshi's aerials are pretty good but nowhere near "godly".

Umm, you can dodge it...nothing is an overstatement....

 

[cutter]

Umm, you can dodge it...nothing is an overstatement....

The turtle lasts for 39 frames (not taking into account the landing hitbox). AFAIK, air dodges don't last for 39 frames or longer. Unless Yoshi has some leet air dodge I don't know about, then you can't AD through all those hitboxes.

 

[Snail]

Umm, you can dodge it...nothing is an overstatement....

Sidestep is outlasted. Shield gets eaten. Roll and you'll get dsmashed in the face.

You can jump, but that doesn't help you all that much.

 

[Chaco]

The turtle lasts for 39 frames (not taking into account the landing hitbox). AFAIK, air dodges don't last for 39 frames or longer. Unless Yoshi has some leet air dodge I don't know about, then you can't AD through all those hitboxes.

He can super jump with the dodge, therefore goes higher than it. ^_^

 

[Kiwikomix]

Or I guess he could DJAD. But why bother when it doesn't shieldpoke him?

 

[darkspatan117]

ROFL!!!

You wanted to second Marth and you think he is ranked 8th.

You are officially on crack my good sir.

Pretty funny on this one lol but does Tlink beat Pit i know nothing about that matchup

 

[Grunt]

Awesome:
Sonic
Diddy
Marth
Toon Link
Luigi
Mario

Good:
Pokemon Trainer
ROB
Bowser
Peach
Link
Zelda
Meta Knight
Pit
Falcon
Dedede

Not Good:
Snake
Ike
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Undecided:
Everyone I didn't name

Lol look what I found.

 

[Bowser King]

Lol look what I found.

Remember that was pre-brawl release though. Many people thought sonic was going to turn out awesome.

Unless that's what you were trying to show .

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thats cause everyone was hyped.
And when they were disappointed they said Sonic was bottom tier material -_-;

They even said oh I cat use him well the CPU uses him better but I think he is bottom tier. WTF?

 

[ROOOOY!]

WTF Yoshi in the 'not good' category? Are you high? He can chaingrab basically everyone from what I've heard and fair spike people at <10% and has an awesome air game and has a totally amazing recovery and can now shoot super Hadouken powers out of his arse.

Spoiler

I think all the Yoshi talk on Tactical Boards is starting to affect me :\

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Down to what? How can Ganondorf go down any further than he is right now?

And Game and Watch is way too versatile with high-priority attacks to go down. I think that within time, G-Dub could actually pass Snake in the rankings; it's just that Snake is just too popular in tournaments for that to happen.

Sheik and Samus definately have potential. I'm honestly surprised that Sheik is always placed so low. I guess turning into Zelda for kills doesn't qualify as solely using Sheik, no matter how long Sheik had been used that match?

And Sonic will go up as well.

I think the general rule of thumb is that aggressive characters usually start to rise and surpass campers as the metagame advances. It's usually due to people find new ways to approach while there's only so much you can do with a projectile...

I only think Ganon will go down because Sonic and Pokemon Trainer will go up IMO but all that's iffy

I don't see GaW as the versatile... I dunno. Maybe I just haven't played any good enough ones but his attacks... kind of send you a telegram that they are coming....

. He has high priority, spammable attacks but the more I play against him the more I see he has....lag.... Not ACTUAL lag but more like he SIGNALS when his lag is going to happen. His hitboxes last for SO long you can tell when he's going to be helpless. I've actually seen the turtle coming, rolled behind him and charged an Fsmash a good bit and just let it rip while he was helpless. I've also leaped over the box of his fair and just kicked him in the head. People will learn to fight him better. But all that I'm iffy on too

I think Shiek will raise a little and Mario and Ike will drop too.

And yeah. Admittedly under bias I say Sonic will rise. 22 in tournament standings has to mean SOMETHING and Mr.3000 NOTORIOUS for not using Sonic's mindgame options has proven him capable of beating things like Sethlons Falco(Who I THINK is considered the best Falco?) and I THINK Hylians? Coming in the top 4 fairly well with those names about is nothing to overlook.

All of this is opinion based off of... opinion.....

I don't have the experience to back it up. It's just what I think. Not really solid though... I haven't worked out all of the angles in my head.....

 

[ChronoPenguin]

WTF Yoshi in the 'not good' category? Are you high? He can chaingrab basically everyone from what I've heard and fair spike people at <10% and has an awesome air game and has a totally amazing recovery and can now shoot super Hadouken powers out of his arse.

Spoiler

I think all the Yoshi talk on Tactical Boards is starting to affect me :\

Lol.

 

[darkspatan117]

WTF Yoshi in the 'not good' category? Are you high? He can chaingrab basically everyone from what I've heard and fair spike people at <10% and has an awesome air game and has a totally amazing recovery and can now shoot super Hadouken powers out of his arse.

Spoiler

I think all the Yoshi talk on Tactical Boards is starting to affect me :\

Maybe you can doge out of fair and is cg is not as potent as you think it deal maxium 10% since you're opponent won't let you jab to much I admit thought it the best thing against Wario

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why are we still debating about Yoshi? Everything about him has been said like 5678358 times...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Because if he's low Yoshi mainers will be ticked and if he's high everyone else will be. That's the way tier lists work. He who *****es most gets their characters higher. XD

 

[ROOOOY!]

Maybe you can doge out of fair and is cg is not as potent as you think it deal maxium 10% since you're opponent won't let you jab to much I admit thought it the best thing against Wario

It was sarcasm. It's just saw a list which had Yoshi omg in the bottom 10 (!) and no Yoshi mains seemed bothered so I thought I'd **** it for them using obscure facts which just seemed to be brought up out of the blue in some hope that Yoshi will be seen in a better light.
Not that Yoshi mains ever do that kinda thing. Ever.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

This thread talks about Yoshi so much becase the majority of the frequent posters are Yoshi mains. Anytime someone places Yoshi in bottom tier, the Yoshi mains jump him then go on and on and how good Yoshi is, how much he's ignored and how quickly he's improving etc.

 

[Ace55]

Maybe you can doge out of fair and is cg is not as potent as you think it deal maxium 10% since you're opponent won't let you jab to much I admit thought it the best thing against Wario

*facepalm*

 

[jiovanni007]

@jiovanni007: I wouldn't be surprised if that Yoshi you were talking about couldn't play him worth crap. Just because he knew of some of those AT's, doesn't make him good or professional. A good example would be against this Pit user about 2 Days ago. He knew how to Wingdash and all of that, but I constantly 2-3 Stock him. Hell, it's the most things I see with Snakes, Mortar Slides, but has absolutely no skill at all. If he was "Good", He should have be at least on par on your Kirby.

nah I would assume he's good since that's an even match (as decided by the Kirby community, not sure how Yoshi's feel about it) and I consider myself to be pretty good. He managed to get damage on my second life and I pretty much trained myself on every possible counterpick stage as Kirby, Lucario, and Luigi. Hate to toot my own horn here, but my skills may have made Yoshi seem worse than he actually is.

But yeah we should switch the subject from Yoshi, everyone has pretty much decided he's bottom until he puts up more on the tournament scene. E rank doesn't justify his subpar moveset.

I wish Luigi was higher (on the tier list), I would try myself, but I've dedicated myself to Kirby and don't think I'll fall out of love with him anytime soon.

 

[Gindler]

People put yoshi in bottom? I've just seen him in low which is right about where I think he should be now...

and I think Kirby's a pretty hard matchup for yoshi, well worse than MK anyway (in my experience) and that says alot!

 

[darkspatan117]

it not because you cg mk that he easier than kirby I repeat it Yoshi cg suck the grab release to spike rock
Yoshi is mid low tier easily

 

[Ace55]

Will somebody please put Yoshi in mid tier. (some of) the Yoshi mains are driving me nuts.

 

[darkspatan117]

lol because they infinte Wario and Yoshi don't deserve to be mid tier but he is in the low very close to the mid but not in the mid

 

[Mmac]

nah I would assume he's good since that's an even match (as decided by the Kirby community, not sure how Yoshi's feel about it) and I consider myself to be pretty good. He managed to get damage on my second life and I pretty much trained myself on every possible counterpick stage as Kirby, Lucario, and Luigi. Hate to toot my own horn here, but my skills may have made Yoshi seem worse than he actually is.

Do you have any idea what you just said? Basically all I heard from this is "I am good and destroyed some random Yoshi, therefore, he sucks"

I 3 Stocked a Snake Yesterday, and Twice again 3 Days ago. ZOMG SNAKE IS GARBAGE TIER!

You can't just judge one character on a single experience, and proclaim that as fact. From what I heard, this Yoshi doesn't sound that good.

But yeah we should switch the subject from Yoshi, everyone has pretty much decided he's bottom until he puts up more on the tournament scene. E rank doesn't justify his subpar moveset.

I wish Luigi was higher (on the tier list), I would try myself, but I've dedicated myself to Kirby and don't think I'll fall out of love with him anytime soon.

Yet, you Completely ignore this:

Finally, one more thing I don't get. He's about High Mid of E Rank now, and has better matchup's than Mario, Jigglypuff, Bowser, Ness, Link, Samus, Luigi, and Especially Ganondorf and Falcon. Yet, I see almost all of these character get put ahead of Yoshi, sometimes entier Tiers above him. Especially since Yoshi has better tournament results than Luigi, Ness, Bowser, Samus, Link, and Jigglypuff. Either be consistent with the Results, or just drop the entire thing altogether.

So... If it comes to Yoshi, Tournament Rankings, It's pretty much the Primary Weight that is 100% keeping him in Bottom Tier, but it somehow doesn't affect character like Luigi even though he's doing WORSE?

I'll say it again, Either be consistent with the Results, or just drop the entire thing altogether!

Edits: Chaingrabbing isn't about damage, but gaining control of the match. Think of it as like Sumo Wrestling.

And for the guys who been *****ing about Yoshi Mains, Did you noticed that there hasn't been a Yoshi main in this thread for 4 Hours!

Except for Gindler, but all he said was "I think Kirby is hard for Yoshi"

 

[Chaco]

Well, I also main Peach and Falcon...but I don't gripe about falcon cause that's not gonna happen. I just like verbal arguments and arguing tier placements is fun.

But the Yoshi's are game, play us.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

**** snake G&W is better.... you'll all see by next year, G&W's better air game, amazing ground game and KO potential are fantastic, Snakes air game falls short, and he IS easier to gimp.

Also before anyone gangs up on Mmac.
*summons penguin army to back up Mmac, and gives each penguin a gun*

 

[ROOOOY!]

So... If it comes to Yoshi, Tournament Rankings, It's pretty much the Primary Weight that is 100% keeping him in Bottom Tier, but it somehow doesn't affect character like Luigi even though he's doing WORSE?

Yoshi is low tier. Luigi is low mid. Luigi's tournament results will pick up. Yoshi's probably won't.

And for the guys who been *****ing about Yoshi Mains, Did you noticed that there hasn't been a Yoshi main in this thread for 4 Hours!

NEW RECORD!

I can't multiquote because I suck.

 

[Chaco]

**** snake G&W is better.... you'll all see by next year, G&W's better air game, amazing ground game and KO potential are fantastic, Snakes air game falls short, and he IS easier to gimp.

Also before anyone gangs up on Mmac.
*summons penguin army to back up Mmac, and gives each penguin a gun*

*summons army of sport sandals* THat is what Chaco's are BTW.

But yeah they tend to gang up on any Yoshi main who enters.