Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Delta_BP26]

On the Luigi boards, the match-up has been established as a 9/10 in G&W's favor. (1 being ridiculously easy, 5 being neutral and 10 being almost impossible. I prefer this method of match-up grading) The problem with the match-up is that the Gayman has disjointed hitboxes, and due to Luigi's inferior range, this poses a really big problem.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Except it does. It doesn't hit above or behind him. It has disjointed hit boxes in front so attacking from above can be risky if you're too close. But he's completely defenseless from behind. The attack also has ending lag if it ends on the ground.

Yeah, you're right., he's vulnerable behind him, but how the heck do you plan on getting behind him? The fact that he doesn't have it boxes behind him means nothing if you can't punish him like that. I suppose it means that Luigi can get in an attack if Game and Watch bairs FACING THE WRONG WAY, but that will NEVER happen.

Please. Nobody 'destroys' anybody - they can have a major dis/advantage(s), sure. Going by the nature of your posts though, you seem to be overlooking one important factor: the PLAYER. His turtle is arguably a great move and a force to be reckoned with, but I think it's very arrogant to assume that it's unbeatable. Or that spamming a single move will dismantle Luigi or any character as a whole.

If your logic held any water, Ike would be god tier because you could just spam forward smash and violate.

No, that wouldn't be true if the logic held. GaW's bair >>>>>>>>> Ike's fsmash. It's ridiculously easy to punish the fsmash during both the prelag and postlag. GaW's bair has little of either and has a long lasting disjointed hitbox.

Yes, of course, the GaW isn't going to do nothing but bair all day, but he has an incredibly safe damage dealer/approach against Luigi (and almost everyone else too) that he will use A LOT.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh and JFYI, BaWs bair is indeed "unbeatable" for all 'cept 4 chars (MK, Snake, Marth, Tlink). Yes, that one moves decides 75% of the match-up's in his favour. Everybody, who outranges it, wins vs. him, the rest has the disadvantage. Plain and simple

 

[DanGR]

Oh and JFYI, BaWs bair is indeed "unbeatable" for all 'cept 4 chars (MK, Snake, Marth, Tlink). Yes, that one moves decides 75% of the match-up's in his favour. Everybody, who outranges it, wins vs. him, the rest has the disadvantage. Plain and simple

Olimar can shieldgrab the turtle and outranges him on the ground, but doesn't have the priority and speed in the air to get around his attacks. It's not advantaged for Olimar though. It's even. There's much more to than the turtle.

 

[Skyflyer]

God tier:

Metaknight

Top tier:

Snake
Mr. Game and Watch
King dedede
Falco
Marth

High tier:

R.O.B
Wario
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Pikachu
Wolf

Mid tier:

Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Pit
Peach
Zelda
Fox
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Ness

Low tier:

Sonic
Yoshi
Mario
Sheik
Pokemon trainer
Bowser
Ike

Bottom tier:

Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Dirt tier:

Captain falcon

 

[Xiivi]

Tier List Guide

While it is very outdated, this guide still holds true in general concepts.

 

[ROOOOY!]

God tier:

Metaknight

Top tier:

Snake
Mr. Game and Watch
King dedede
Falco
Marth

High tier:

R.O.B
Wario
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Pikachu
Wolf

Mid tier:

Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Pit
Peach
Zelda
Fox
Lucas
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Ness

Low tier:

Sonic
Yoshi
Mario
Sheik
Pokemon trainer
Bowser
Ike

Bottom tier:

Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Dirt tier:

Captain falcon

Switch Ness and Lucas, and Peach and Zelda, and I think we have a winner.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

list

Could you finally stop to post a new list every two pages? We already have a list as a basis for our discussions (see p.923 bottom)

 

[Solid Rage94]

My personal thoughts on Tiers:

I have tryed playing all the characters in brawl in some way or another so I feal like there should not be any tiers,.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Do you think anybody cares about that, IN A TIER TOPIC???

 

[mood4food77]

why is wario constantly placed low when he is considered snake and one of DK's worst match-up, the going even with falco, meta, gdubs, and ROB (for the most part), the only bad match-up he has that high is D3 (and when i mean bad....i mean bad), oh, and if one more person says because he can get infinite grabbed by some cahracters really makes him that much worse, honosty you sir/gal are an idiot, he gets infinited by possibly THE TWO HARDEST CHARACTERS TO USE IN THE GAME, how often do you see yoshi or ZSS, thank you, now leave teh fatty alone

and people who think lucario is better tahn wario are beyond me, if lucario does well against anyone, it's wario and that's cause of range, he can't do anything to gdubs, meta, snake, etc, he gets outcamped by falco and ROB, IT'S NONSENSE

olimar has only one match-up in his favor in the top group, d3, that's it, there is no way he's higher up than wario

ZSS being low is strange too, look at her match-ups with the higher tiers, let's see, roughly even with snake, meta, gdubs, advantage on d3, disadvantage against falco, slight advantage against wario, slight disadvantage ROB, even with DK, doesn't seem that bad, stop placing her way down below peach and stuff, she's much better than that

 

[gantrain05]

pfft peach is so much better than ZSS of course she deserves to be higher than her.

 

[Mmac]

why is wario constantly placed low when he is considered snake and DK's worst match-up, the going even with falco, meta, gdubs, and ROB (for the most part), the only bad match-up he has that high is D3 (and when i mean bad....i mean bad),

Low? Wario gets placed constantly under the sacred seven and you're complaining?!? Also I thought DK's Worst was Dedede.

oh, and if one more person says because he can get infinite grabbed by some cahracters really makes him that much worse, honosty you sir/gal are an idiot, he gets infinited by possibly THE TWO HARDEST CHARACTERS TO USE IN THE GAME, how often do you see yoshi or ZSS, thank you, now leave teh fatty alone

He also gets Infinited by Ganondorf and Bowser, and Semi-Infinited by Zelda, Falcon, Ike, and Peach. 8 Infinites but he still gets placed rediciously High.

and people who think lucario is better tahn wario are beyond me, if lucario does well against anyone, it's wario and that's cause of range, he can't do anything to gdubs, meta, snake, etc, he gets outcamped by falco and ROB, IT'S NONSENSE

No Comment, Don't know much about him

olimar has only one match-up in his favor in the top group, d3, that's it, there is no way he's higher up than wario

What? He Does Great against Dedede and Snake, Even with DK, Falco, Game & Watch, and Wario. The only bad ones he has is ROB, Marth and Maybe MetaKnight. He also has minimal Disadvantages.

ZSS being low is strange too, look at her match-ups with the higher tiers, let's see, roughly even with snake, meta, gdubs, advantage on d3, disadvantage against falco, slight advantage against wario, slight disadvantage ROB, even with DK, doesn't seem that bad, stop placing her way down below peach and stuff, she's much better than that

Some other people have also have great Matchup's (Yoshi and Toon Link to name a few), but often get shafted by the eyes of people.

 

[mood4food77]

even if wario does get infinited by those 8 characters, you can always just use meta against them, none of those characters besides ZSS fair well against him, heck even if they have the infinite on wario, wario's a pain to grab anyways, yea he'll get grabbed eventually, but it's not a sure way to do so

how often are they used in tournaments, besides i've never heard of those characters having infinites on him until now...so i don't know

olimar does well against snake, not enough for an advantage though, it's roughly even

i said only one match-up in his favor, not enough to put him higher than some cahracters, i never said anything about his other match-ups

the past 8 lists i saw had wario below olimar, lucario, and a few otehrs that he's definitely better than

bowser has the infinite on everyone, peach's doesn't work, i know falcon's doesn't work, ike and zelda are the same as peach....

ganon and ZSS must have wario jump in the air for it to work, so it's harder for theirs to work, yoshi's will always release in the air

i changed the wario DK thing, i meant to say one of

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Does it matter? Mewtwo is now the best character, so just end this discussion.

[jk]

 

[Pieisthebest]

Mewtwo's nair is the most over powered attack in this game. GaW's bair, snake's ftilt and Metaknights nado have nothing on him

 

[Yonder]

Shoot... I hate infinites because you can't ban them/ it's hard to ban them.

I agree, infinites are quite annoying, I bet Luigi would be up there if they were banned. Wario would be too, even though he already is.

 

[Ace55]

Could you finally stop to post a new list every two pages? We already have a list as a basis for our discussions (see p.923 bottom)

That one has so much issues (olimar top of high tier???) that I'd rather start from scratch. And how is that one different from the ten thousand other lists that are posted in this thread?

 

[Zinc Elemental]

even if wario does get infinited by those 8 characters, you can always just use meta against them

That is a reason for MK being at the top. It has nothing to do with Wario.

Wario's pretty high already. I wouldn't move him much higher.

 

[Crank]

For no apparent reason whatsoever, I just wanted to remind you of Samus's zair.



1. I could say something similar to this about Samus to a lesser extent since she has only slight disadvantages against Snake, ROB (maybe neutral not too sure), Marth, and difficult, but winnable matchups against Falco and G&W but look where she is.

2. Toon Link has a disadvantage against G&W, Meta Knight, and Marth fyi.

And by the way, Luigi and Samus would probably be in high low-bottom mid since they should not be able to win any tournaments with DDD without a secondary.

TL has the advantage against GnW, is neutral with Marf, and has a soft disadvantage against MK. Not to mention his decent matchups with Snake, D3, and ROB

 

[Delta_BP26]

Poor Mario characters. We Luigi mains and the Wario mains out there have to deal with so many problems in competitive play. Same goes for Mario, Peach, and Yoshi. (Yoshi mains get all the bullcrap from other people too, Bowser too)

And then people like Gayman and Snake get all the credit. Nobody from the first game is doing any good.

 

[popsofctown]

Doesn't Game and Watch predate Mario?

 

[Mmac]

Doesn't Game and Watch predate Mario?

Game & Watch is actually not a real character but rather a design from the collection of the actual Characters from the Game & Watch Games.

Basically Game & Watch is pretty much a mascot that was made during Melee to represent the Game & Watch Series, but never actually existed during his time in the Late 70's - Early 80's.

 

[ShadowLink84]

why is wario constantly placed low when he is considered snake and one of DK's worst match-up, the going even with falco, meta, gdubs, and ROB (for the most part), the only bad match-up he has that high is D3 (and when i mean bad....i mean bad), oh, and if one more person says because he can get infinite grabbed by some cahracters really makes him that much worse, honosty you sir/gal are an idiot, he gets infinited by possibly THE TWO HARDEST CHARACTERS TO USE IN THE GAME, how often do you see yoshi or ZSS, thank you, now leave teh fatty alone

ganondorf,Ganondorf , Bowser, and Semi-Infinited by Zelda, Falcon, Ike, Peach.

sonic infinites him on the edge and gets a free Fsmash off him when he is released into the air.

Learning curve is not factored.

olimar has only one match-up in his favor in the top group, d3, that's it, there is no way he's higher up than wario

I thought he did well against Snake. Or did that change?

ZSS being low is strange too, look at her match-ups with the higher tiers, let's see, roughly even with snake, meta, gdubs, advantage on d3, disadvantage against falco, slight advantage against wario, slight disadvantage ROB, even with DK, doesn't seem that bad, stop placing her way down below peach and stuff, she's much better than that

Okay even if someone does very well against characters in high and top tier, that doesn't mean the are high tier applicable.

So even if Wario does well against all sacred seven, it doesn't necessarily mean he will end up above one of them because overall, their matchups are better.

Look at Zelda, in melee she had good matchups against some of the higher ups but she wasn't very good against those lower.

I do not know alot about his matchups i comparison to the "sacred" seven so can you provide some listing on his matchups?

even if wario does get infinited by those 8 characters, you can always just use meta against them, none of those characters besides ZSS fair well against him, heck even if they have the infinite on wario, wario's a pain to grab anyways, yea he'll get grabbed eventually, but it's not a sure way to do so

Why do you mention meta?
CPing goes for anyone.
I do agree that Wario is difficult to grab.
So the grabs should not affect him greatly but they do affect him a bit.

how often are they used in tournaments, besides i've never heard of those characters having infinites on him until now...so i don't know

you'll have to check the character boards.

olimar does well against snake, not enough for an advantage though, it's roughly even

****it I hate my browser i refreshed and dsaw this.

i said only one match-up in his favor, not enough to put him higher than some cahracters, i never said anything about his other match-ups

Again so what if Wario does better against higher tiered characters?
If olimar does better overall then he'll be higher up.


Everything else I pretty much agree.

 

[Ace55]

According to the guide (which is pretty good)

marth 30-70 (bit much IMO)

G&W 40-60

ROB 50-50

Falco 45-55

Snake 50-50

Dedede LOL (or 25-75)

MK 40-60

Does OK against anyone but DDD.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Off the top of my head:

marth 3-7 (bit much IMO)

G&W 3-7

ROB 5-5

Falco 4-6

Snake 6-4

Dedede 3-7 (at least)

MK 4-6

I thought MK would be worse than 6-4. If anything he and marth should switch . But its just me.

let me dig up Olimar's and Lucarios.


Olimar:

ROB=7:3 ROB
Snake: 5:5 IMO 6:4 Olimar/even
Marth:6:4 Marth
Falco:5:5 Even
G&W:55:45 G&W
DDD: 60:35 Olimar
MK: 40-60 MK

Lucario:
G&W: 40:60 disadvantage
Marth:4-:6- disadvantage
The rest haven't been done yet I think. I may have missed it.


Olimar total:
1 counter against
3neutrals
2 soft counters
1 advantage.


Wario total:
2 or 3 counters against
2 or 3 disadvantages
1neutral
1 advantage.

 

[Dynamism?]

DDD: 60:35 Olimar

lol
I enjoyed that.

Infinites don't mean much. Ness, Wario, Samus...pffft. Sure it's a little disadvantage but no big deal in the big picture. Samus is extremely underrated, Ness is extremely underused and Wario is extremely misjudged making these 3 somewhat "discriminated" against.

I'll support any one of them for high tier right now, that's how far we've come in this game. lol

 

[Nestec]

Lol, amen to that!

Now that I think about it, I feel like the Yoshi mains are fighting the same battle we Ness mains are. >_<
They're just louder. ^__^ Kidding, kidding...

 

[Juan DaPwnager]

All those tier lists suxs. There's only one definitive tier list:

TOON TIER:

Toon Link

GOD TIER:

Meta Knight

THE OTHERS TIER

The Others

 

[Gindler]

Ha, that's why I use Yoshi and Ness

But yeah I'm thinking the sacred 7 are starting to lower themselves closer and closer to the nonsacred 28. They just don't seem as "unbeatable" anymore to me.

 

[cutter]

Sacred 7:
- MK
- Snake
- G&W
- Marth
- DDD
- Falco
- ROB

Correct? Just making sure. MK is in a class of his own though.

 

[Skyflyer]

Sacred 7:
- MK
- Snake
- G&W
- Marth
- DDD
- Falco
- ROB

Correct? Just making sure. MK is in a class of his own though.

Yup..........

 

[ROOOOY!]

I always figured Snake would fall from the top personally. He's got more weaknesses then say, G&W, who's only real problem is lightweight.

 

[exidid]

They are too scary :0

 

[doomweasel]

I still wanna know what the heck happened to sheik... why so low-tiered all of a sudden?

 

[Shy Guy 86]

Yup..........

Sacred 7:
- MK
- Snake
- G&W
- Marth
- DDD
- Falco
- ROB

Correct? Just making sure. MK is in a class of his own though.

I also think that Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong or Lucario will come in that group....

I still wanna know what the heck happened to sheik... why so low-tiered all of a sudden?

Lack of Kill Moves, Moves got nerfed etc.

 

[Deathcarter]

I still wanna know what the heck happened to sheik... why so low-tiered all of a sudden?

Because very few people actually delve deeper into her potential and just write her off as someone incapable of KOing and as a result she succumbs to the mediocrity of low tier placement. Sad isn't it?

I also think that Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong or Lucario will come in that group....

Diddy Kong and Lucario are good and even have good matchups against some of the sacred 7, but their inability to simply obliterate most traces of lower characters may keep them out of sacred 7. Considering Donkey Kong has a major disadvantage against DDD and he, at best, only holds up against the rest of the top 10 characters, he most likely won't make it into the sacred 7.

Lack of Kill Moves, Moves got nerfed etc.

See what I mean? Provided, there are very few characters that are obviously inferior to her.

 

[Olimarman]

Olimar:

ROB=7:3 ROB
Snake: 5:5 IMO 6:4 Olimar/even
Marth:6:4 Marth
Falco:5:5 Even
G&W:55:45 G&W
DDD: 60:35 Olimar
MK: 40-60 MK

Rob is more like 60-40, this matchup isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be.
Snake really is 6:$ Oli.
Marth, Falco and G&W sound right.
60+35 don't equal 100, so I'd say 65-35. Pikmin just wreck D3.
Mk is 55-45 Mk at most. This matchup is pretty even.

 

[popsofctown]

[On Sheik]Lack of Kill Moves, Moves got nerfed etc.

No. She's just got a very small community, and we don't bother to complain like Yoshi or Sonic or whatnot.

Sheik has several ways of killing. If you play Sheik well, you won't see your opponents go to percents that are any higher than what Falco or Rob or Marth would see.

Generally it's because Sheik has a down special. Everyone likes to pretend all the other characters have down specials, but not Sheik. It's really ridiculous. "If you use Sheik's Transform to kill, you are using another character. Therefore, it is not one of Sheik's moves. Therefore, Sheik can't kill. Therefore, Sheik is low tier, and i'm not going to put Sheik/Zelda on my tier list because i'm stupid"

Transform is surprisingly easy to fit into a match. It's 100% invincible when performed after death, and you don't have to send opponents that far offstage to do it after a downsmash, because sheik can run across the stage very fast. Furthermore, even if you screw up the timing it's not easy to punish, because it varies length every time. (it's based on wii loading time)

Zelda has tons of kill moves, and is a kill machine. You easily can get a vertical KO, and switch back to Sheik.

Even if you can't get over to Zelda for some reason:
Sheik's Vanish has lots of kill power, it kills at 140 or so i think. It's commonly skipped
Gimping.
Upsmash tippers kill lik G dub upsmash.

 

[Pieisthebest]

No. She's just got a very small community, and we don't bother to complain like Yoshi or Sonic or whatnot.

Sheik has several ways of killing. If you play Sheik well, you won't see your opponents go to percents that are any higher than what Falco or Rob or Marth would see.

Generally it's because Sheik has a down special. Everyone likes to pretend all the other characters have down specials, but not Sheik. It's really ridiculous. "If you use Sheik's Transform to kill, you are using another character. Therefore, it is not one of Sheik's moves. Therefore, Sheik can't kill. Therefore, Sheik is low tier, and i'm not going to put Sheik/Zelda on my tier list because i'm stupid"

Transform is surprisingly easy to fit into a match. It's 100% invincible when performed after death, and you don't have to send opponents that far offstage to do it after a downsmash, because sheik can run across the stage very fast. Furthermore, even if you screw up the timing it's not easy to punish, because it varies length every time. (it's based on wii loading time)

Zelda has tons of kill moves, and is a kill machine. You easily can get a vertical KO, and switch back to Sheik.

Even if you can't get over to Zelda for some reason:
Sheik's Vanish has lots of kill power, it kills at 140 or so i think. It's commonly skipped
Gimping.
Upsmash tippers kill lik G dub upsmash.

^Qouted For Truth!