Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic wave don't waste your posts. Its not worth it having to constantly repeat yourself.

 

[Tenki]

Take the Sonic/Falcon/etc recovery arguments to the matchup thread, or if you just want to argue about Sonic's recovery, go make a thread there instead and see what they have to say about it.

Really, it has almost nothing to do with the tier list/placement, as much as I'd like to spread Sonic knowledge to people.

Besides, it seems general consensus that Sonic's recovery is good. Airdodge was stated, but after understating its use, A2 went on to focus on what would happen if Sonic doesn't airdodge.

Let's say people don't dodge Ike's attacks. Ike is now a fairly useful character that places somewhat well in tournies. However, this is not the case. Dodging IS a factor, among others, that screws up characters that would otherwise be good.

@.@; whatever. This thread is cluttered enough. I've seen the same arguments for over 5 pages. I want to see A2's video compilation of his own vs Sonic matches where he successfully pulls off these hypothetical situations.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Sonic wave don't waste your posts. Its not worth it having to constantly repeat yourself.

Nonsense. The true goal should be to indirectly inform people reading the discussion, not to flat out win the argument. Even if it seems like one repeats himself, people can still learn from it.

 

[Yonder]

Please comment and give constructive critisism, it will help me out in the future please and thank you.

- Top Tier -

1) Snake (Is there anything he CAN't do? (Besides his slight laggy air game, he's pwnage)

2) MetaKnight (Yes, he DOES have killing power (D smash, up B, Foward smash)

These two are generally accepted, and unarguably the best two characters in the game. Snake would only be ahead of Meta Knight by a verrrry little bit due to his projectile options. Game and Watch may slip into the bottom of the top tier maybe later on.

High Tier

3) Game & Watch (He could also be in the bottom of the top tier, but his great drawback is his very light weight, but this didn't stop Fox from being top tier in Melee. A GREAT inprovement from Melee)

4) Falco (Overall slighly worse, but I like the way his reflector works)

5) Marth ( Another character that is slightly worse, but I like him more in Brawl.)

6) ROB (BEST RECOVERY IN THE GAME)

7) Dedede

8) Ice Climbers: This team with there infinate grabs, double power, and able to use 2 items at once (although this doesn't apply in tournament play), They are definately in the better half of the cast in Brawl)

8) Toon Link (As much as I hate his guts, yep, he's high tier, but still is slightly underwealming to the people above him)

9) Pikachu

10) Fox (Although he was better in Melee( I hated him in Melee), I like him loads better in Brawl for some reason, mostly because he isn't some pathedically overused anymore.)

11) Wario: (This guy's aerial game, and unpredictable gameplay, as well as his fart, warn him a spot in the high tier, he is an above average character)

11) Luigi (This guy is definately underated, he has awesome priority, awesome recovery, and above average killing moves (Fire punch anyone?), He's better than Mario. Sadly, he lacks approach, has a under par projectile, and has troubles against projectile users. Time your down taunt correctly when someone's on the edge, and there is a near instant kill for you!)

12) Olimar (Tsk tsk to the bad recovery, but he still overall is a great character)

13) Zelda (Another greatly inproved character, she's better than Sheik this time around, her projectile is also awesome.)

Middle

14) Pit (His recovery is pretty easy to mess up, but his attack are pretty above average, he just lacks from being high tier, sure sure has some great qualites.)

15) Wolf (He seems pretty balanced compared to the other two space animals, but seems slightly under them, although he can combo and has some power. He is probably lower high tier, but i'm wasn't to sure where to place him.)

16) Lucas ( I honestly think Lucas is awesome, his Smashes are awesome (UP SMASH ), his tilt are pretty good, and he can use energy as health (down B), attack with his down B unlike Ness (But little damage), and both he and Ness can use there side smash as a reflector somewhat. But he's fairly light, and his recovery can be messed up in some ways, although Ness's is easier to mess up.)

17) Diddy Kong ( He's also pretty good, but his recovery is predictable (although fun to use), and he slightly lacks power, but his bananas can keep opponents busy if used right.)

18) Donkey Kong (He also could be in high tier, but I feel like it's hard to land moves with him... Unless you use his side B and then a fully charged B punch. He also has a nice load of meteor smashes.)

19) Mario ( He's the middle man, and in all three smash games, he should NEVER go higher, or lower than mid tier, that's how good he is in my opinion, his FLUDD can mess up certain recoveries ( Like Ike's) and he can combo, he's not low or high tier though, that's for true.)

20) Ness ( Personally, I think he's worse than Lucas, and his recovery is more gimpable and is harder to control, but is PK fire is better, especially when you trap someone in it, and used a fully charged bat to smash them away.)

21) Lucario ( Not much to say on him, except his recovery is predictable, and his damage factor is pretty unique, but he's better than Mewtwo (who I miss...)

22) Zero Suit Samus ( Her Down Smash is pretty good, and it paralizes enemies, as with all he attacks, and she doesn't have a terrible recovery, as she can use her down B also.)

23) Bowser (More inproved definately, But I think he's not inproved enough to go past mid tier.)

24) Sonic ( He can combo somewhat, can edgeguard, and has SPEED, it's what we all obssesed about in Melee, right?)

25) Kirby ( He is better and has more power, but I don't see any major inprovements, although he is actually worth playing now )

26) Peach ( I liked her better in Melee, but at least her floating is still pretty good. Shame on the D smash and the 2nd jump of hers though.

27)Samus ( Not much to say here, she has projectiles... I don't know alot about Samus)

28) Ike ( He DOES have a lot of power, and SOME speed, some he's not that bad)

29) Yoshi ( Yep, he's better this time around, especially his up A in the air and his tail wag move. Thank god he has a 3rd jump now, although it's not that outstanding)



Low Tier

30) Sheik ( SOOOOO little power, it makes me cringe, she was way better in Melee)

31) Pokemon Trainer ( Eh, none of his pokemon are outstanding, and the fatigue system is a flaw to him too. Also, it sucks when you switch and they get a free hit on the pokemon when your switching)

32) Link ( Bleah, Toon Link is superior in every way, the only reason Link should be played is because he's the original one, and not a copy of anyone. It also sucks that his recovery is worse, and that you have to charge his spin jump now.)

33) Jigglypuff ( Her aerial game is worse, and her rest is garbage, it leaves you to vunerable to attacks to long and doesn't deal enough damage and knockback as it did before. Also, if you break her shield somehow, she doomed)

Bottom Tier

34) Ganondorf (So, so slooooow. But he's fun to play as, and as a truck load of power, at least he can Ganoncide...

35) Captain Falcon ( Helloooooo mr no priority. Falcon, you are lame this time around. Not a ton of power, his attacks alre slower, I don't like him at all.)

 

[St. Viers]

here's the tl;dr answer to why sonic>falcon

falcon's one good trait is he's still kinda fast.

sonic is faster.

 

[metalmonstar]

Which doesn't really change the fact that if the tiers are correct they should be predictive of future results.

It's an error-check really.

A tier list must concern itself with what is the current metagame. I can't sit here and go "Lucario will get a huge AT down the road thus making him top tier." If we were to be predictive then a tier list would be highly opinion based instead of more fact based.

 

[adumbrodeus]

A tier list must concern itself with what is the current metagame. I can't sit here and go "Lucario will get a huge AT down the road thus making him top tier." If we were to be predictive then a tier list would be highly opinion based instead of more fact based.

We're not basing anything on predictions, we're not using any future events in the calculation of a tier list itself, merely match-ups.

However if a tier list is good, it should approximately predict future tournament results, baring the findings of particularly game-changing ATs. However when such ATs drastically change match-ups, that's when you go in and re-evaluate the tier list.

 

[hizzlum]

Please comment and give constructive critisism, it will help me out in the future please and thank you.

- Top Tier -

1) Snake (Is there anything he CAN't do? (Besides his slight laggy air game, he's pwnage)

2) MetaKnight (Yes, he DOES have killing power (D smash, up B, Foward smash)

These two are generally accepted, and unarguably the best two characters in the game. Snake would only be ahead of Meta Knight by a verrrry little bit due to his projectile options. Game and Watch may slip into the bottom of the top tier maybe later on.

High Tier

3) Game & Watch (He could also be in the bottom of the top tier, but his great drawback is his very light weight, but this didn't stop Fox from being top tier in Melee. A GREAT inprovement from Melee)

4) Falco (Overall slighly worse, but I like the way his reflector works)

5) Marth ( Another character that is slightly worse, but I like him more in Brawl.)

6) ROB (BEST RECOVERY IN THE GAME)

7) Dedede

8) Toon Link (As much as I hate his guts, yep, he's high tier, but still is slightly underwealming to the people above him)

9) Pikachu

10) Fox (Although he was better in Melee( I hated him in Melee), I like him loads better in Brawl for some reason, mostly because he isn't some pathedically overused anymore.)

11) Luigi (This guy is definately underated, he has awesome priority, awesome recovery, and above average killing moves (Fire punch anyone?), He's better than Mario. Sadly, he lacks approach, has a under par projectile, and has troubles against projectile users. Time your down taunt correctly when someone's on the edge, and there is a near instant kill for you!)

12) Olimar (Tsk tsk to the bad recovery, but he still overall is a great character)

13) Zelda (Another greatly inproved character, she's better than Sheik this time around, her projectile is also awesome.)

Middle

14) Pit (His recovery is pretty easy to mess up, but his attack are pretty above average, he just lacks from being high tier, sure sure has some great qualites.)

15) Wolf (He seems pretty balanced compared to the other two space animals, but seems slightly under them, although he can combo and has some power. He is probably lower high tier, but i'm wasn't to sure where to place him.)

16) Lucas ( I honestly think Lucas is awesome, his Smashes are awesome (UP SMASH ), his tilt are pretty good, and he can use energy as health (down B), attack with his down B unlike Ness (But little damage), and both he and Ness can use there side smash as a reflector somewhat. But he's fairly light, and his recovery can be messed up in some ways, although Ness's is easier to mess up.)

17) Diddy Kong ( He's also pretty good, but his recovery is predictable (although fun to use), and he slightly lacks power, but his bananas can keep opponents busy if used right.)

18) Donkey Kong (He also could be in high tier, but I feel like it's hard to land moves with him... Unless you use his side B and then a fully charged B punch. He also has a nice load of meteor smashes.)

19) Mario ( He's the middle man, and in all three smash games, he should NEVER go higher, or lower than mid tier, that's how good he is in my opinion, his FLUDD can mess up certain recoveries ( Like Ike's) and he can combo, he's not low or high tier though, that's for true.)

20) Ness ( Personally, I think he's worse than Lucas, and his recovery is more gimpable and is harder to control, but is PK fire is better, especially when you trap someone in it, and used a fully charged bat to smash them away.)

21) Lucario ( Not much to say on him, except his recovery is predictable, and his damage factor is pretty unique, but he's better than Mewtwo (who I miss...)

22) Zero Suit Samus ( Her Down Smash is pretty good, and it paralizes enemies, as with all he attacks, and she doesn't have a terrible recovery, as she can use her down B also.)

23) Bowser (More inproved definately, But I think he's not inproved enough to go past mid tier.)

24) Sonic ( He can combo somewhat, can edgeguard, and has SPEED, it's what we all obssesed about in Melee, right?)

25) Kirby ( He is better and has more power, but I don't see any major inprovements, although he is actually worth playing now )

26) Peach ( I liked her better in Melee, but at least her floating is still pretty good. Shame on the D smash and the 2nd jump of hers though.

27)Samus ( Not much to say here, she has projectiles... I don't know alot about Samus)

28) Ike ( He DOES have a lot of power, and SOME speed, some he's not that bad)

29) Yoshi ( Yep, he's better this time around, especially his up A in the air and his tail wag move. Thank god he has a 3rd jump now, although it's not that outstanding)



Low Tier

30) Sheik ( SOOOOO little power, it makes me cringe, she was way better in Melee)

31) Pokemon Trainer ( Eh, none of his pokemon are outstanding, and the fatigue system is a flaw to him too. Also, it sucks when you switch and they get a free hit on the pokemon when your switching)

32) Link ( Bleah, Toon Link is superior in every way, the only reason Link should be played is because he's the original one, and not a copy of anyone. It also sucks that his recovery is worse, and that you have to charge his spin jump now.)

33) Jigglypuff ( Her aerial game is worse, and her rest is garbage, it leaves you to vunerable to attacks to long and doesn't deal enough damage and knockback as it did before. Also, if you break her shield somehow, she doomed)

Bottom Tier

34) Ganondorf (So, so slooooow. But he's fun to play as, and as a truck load of power, at least he can Ganoncide...

35) Captain Falcon ( Helloooooo mr no priority. Falcon, you are lame this time around. Not a ton of power, his attacks alre slower, I don't like him at all.)

Not bad at all but where are the IC's i suggest they be put in the middle/low part of the high tier. as for Rob having the best recovery in the game, MK has an infinite recovery and the most recovery options of any character, I feel as if MK wins in distance and in options recoverywise.
Switch Wolf with Fox, Wolf has been winning tournaments although his matchups may say otherwise, most agree that the bottom of the high tier suits him.
Also your high tier should be split at DDD/TL, there is a major difference in potencial and tournaments wins in the middle of your high tier that most smashboardians agree would create a more clear tier list. The bottom part of your high tier at that spilt should be called the upper tier, a phrase the SBR has used on previous list indicating a group better than the middle.
Lucas and Ness are a little too high to be in the middle since they can be infinitely grabbed, the top of the low tier would be a smart choice.
You back it up with evidence so it is difficult to disagree with you on most of teh characters. Nice job though, more tier lists like these would be great

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

here's the tl;dr answer to why sonic>falcon

falcon's one good trait is he's still kinda fast.

sonic is faster.

But Sonic can't kill..

 

[Tenki]

But Sonic can't kill..

...in the traditional rack-up-damage-and-use-a-KO-move way, yes. He has problems doing that (since his "true" KO moves from 110%-170% are B-air, F-smash, and D-smash). More experienced Sonic players can land B-airs and smashes more consistently though.

However, B/D-throw off edge and edgeguard? Different matter. He gets much, much faster kills off-stage. Watch a "Sonic Combo video" and you'll see some of the ways he can land kills, since most of them happen to be collections of finishing moves anyway.

 

[Dark Sonic]

But Sonic can't kill..

So. He sure racks damage faster.

And edgeguards really well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh and he's completely blue.
Not some blue, a little red, alittle gold.
Another reason he wins.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Tenki: You done stoled my avatar.

But really, I don't see why anyone could possibly think Falcon is better than Sonic. Sonic isn't even bottom tier, how is this arguable?

 

[menofuntall]

Well, I'm really surprised that some people still don't know that Lucas can only be "infinite" grabbed by Marth, and Ness by Marth and Charizard. And it's infinite only in the sense that it's a chaingrab, only you take a step forward instead of a foxtrot forward. Because being chain grabbed by one/two characters is surefire low tier, am I right?

 

[A2ZOMG]

here's the tl;dr answer to why sonic>falcon

falcon's one good trait is he's still kinda fast.

sonic is faster.

However, Sonic's bad trait is that he has very little other w1n going for him.

Falcon has w1n in a few attacks like his Jabs, U-tilt, U-air, and Falcon kick. They both have fail kill options, but Falcon's kill options are stronger.

Sonic's w1n attacks are....meybe U-air and B-air? None of his attacks are better than Falcon's U-air though.

 

[St. Viers]

m i rite? you mean =P

yeah, I don't get that one myself

 

[Dark Sonic]

None of his attacks are better than Falcon's U-air though.

I don't know man. That spin charge is pretty rediculous.

Massive priority on the initial hop, goes through projectiles, can be jump canceled or shield canceld, counts as an attack when you hop off the ground, combos into 3 of his aerials can be used for spinshotting, oh and travels insanely fast.

That sounds too good to me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

However, Sonic's bad trait is that he has very little other w1n going for him.

Falcon has w1n in a few attacks like his Jabs, U-tilt, U-air, and Falcon kick. They both have fail kill options, but Falcon's kill options are stronger.

Sonic's w1n attacks are....meybe U-air and B-air? None of his attacks are better than Falcon's U-air though.

yeah lets forget his Fsmash is faster and can be stutter stepped to a greater degree.
HIs Fair can be linked to itself for easy kills.
Nair kills.
Dash~>spring~>Uair kills
Sonic has more options to kill than Falcon, because his aren't as situational or difficult to set up..

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well, I'm really surprised that some people still don't know that Lucas can only be "infinite" grabbed by Marth, and Ness by Marth and Charizard. And it's infinite only in the sense that it's a chaingrab, only you take a step forward instead of a foxtrot forward. Because being chain grabbed by one/two characters is surefire low tier, am I right?

Some other character have semi infinites/finite chaingrabs on them, not to mention some also get a free smash attack out of it.

Lucas has proven he isn't hurt nearly as bad as this as much as Ness, as he still continues to climb in tournament performance, while Ness continues to stay around the bottom, that should tell you something.

 

[adumbrodeus]

However, Sonic's bad trait is that he has very little other w1n going for him.

Falcon has w1n in a few attacks like his Jabs, U-tilt, U-air, and Falcon kick. They both have fail kill options, but Falcon's kill options are stronger.

Sonic's w1n attacks are....meybe U-air and B-air? None of his attacks are better than Falcon's U-air though.

Falcon is a character built to combo in an engine that absolutely prohibits it. Check the match-ups thread, the only character with a worse average match-up is Gannondorf. There's no way whatsoever that Cap. Falcon deserves a spot above bottom tier, though he's still better then Gannondorf (who happens to be one of my secondaries) if that's any consolation.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Falcon is a character built to combo in an engine that absolutely prohibits it. Check the match-ups thread, the only character with a worse average match-up is Gannondorf. There's no way whatsoever that Cap. Falcon deserves a spot above bottom tier, though he's still better then Gannondorf (who happens to be one of my secondaries) if that's any consolation.

No No No No NO, he's not even better than Ganon. Ganon actually makes his hits counts, Autocanceled Dair into Upsmash is 50%, probably more damage then two falcon punches. He has a decent tech chasing game, is a heavy and can tank things out, Ganoncide when he gets up a stock. Ok priority and can acutally approach and better aerials than Falcon. While his matchups are bad, they're not quite as bad as Falcon's with virtually no advantages against anyone. I still believe Ganon is still not that good, but he's not nearly as bad as Falcon.


Not to mention, just reading the SBR's description of him you can tell they obviously don't think he's that bad.

 

[Kiwikomix]

^^ I was gonna say this, more or less. Falcon's speed isn't really even that big of a bonus considering that he still can't approach unless he tries to Falcon Kick. Also, Ganon is heavier than Falcon and can therefore stay alive longer, since his recovery really isn't that bad due to the floatiness of Brawl.

 

[Tenki]

lol as I was typing this, two 4 6 posts were made.
@SL: What do you mean with the stutter step comment? Both of them can stutterstep (full one with dashdance beginning). Falcon's has longer range and longer lag.

However, Sonic's bad trait is that he has very little other w1n going for him.

Falcon has w1n in a few attacks like his Jabs, U-tilt, U-air, and Falcon kick. They both have fail kill options, but Falcon's kill options are stronger.

Sonic's w1n attacks are....meybe U-air and B-air? None of his attacks are better than Falcon's U-air though.

Falcon kick leaves you in lag after teh attack. Wutz I hit someone but I can't follow up nao D:
ASC combos (damage)- @.@; I lost faith in your credibility after you said Sonic has no 'real' (consecutive hit) combos.

D-throw near edge (death setup for many characters)
D-air sweetspot near edge (vs aerial opponent)- easy-to-land low trajectory attack. Dangerous starting at 50-60% for most characters. It's almost as bad as a spike for people who get hit by it.
Homing attack screws people after they lose their 2nd jump, and KO's off-stage rather easily.

@.@ to clear up something, Falcon and Sonic play similarly in that they both rely alot on punishing attacks. The range of attacks that Sonic can punish are larger than Falcon's due to his faster running speed (punish Ganondorf's jab with more than a Falcon Kick?). Regardless of your understatement of airdodging during recovery, both of them can recover fairly well. Both have low priority. And that's it. The way Sonic gets kills, the speed that they deal damage, the way they deal damage- are different. Don't go projecting whatever playstyle you have as Falcon onto Sonic's moves and then rate him as a character.

That's almost as bad as projecting a Melee character's playstyle onto a Brawl character's playstyle, and if you do indeed play Falcon, you should already know how bad that fails.

[edit/addition]

Falcon is a character built to combo in an engine that absolutely prohibits it. Check the match-ups thread, the only character with a worse average match-up is Gannondorf. There's no way whatsoever that Cap. Falcon deserves a spot above bottom tier, though he's still better then Gannondorf (who happens to be one of my secondaries) if that's any consolation.

Is he really built to combo? Most of his attacks have been given more knockbacks, not just his B moves. Samus and Link were generally given melee moves with lower knockback but projectiles to make up for it. MK has a few attacks with high knockback, but his moves flow into each other, making it easier to rack up damage that will kill.

IMO the "Falcon = combo man" mentality is just left over from a style and game where L-cancelling was possible. Some people will still try to play him that way, and it doesn't work successfully.

@ShadowLink's next post:
no u

 

[menofuntall]

Some other character have semi infinites/finite chaingrabs on them, not to mention some also get a free smash attack out of it.

Lucas has proven he isn't hurt nearly as bad as this as much as Ness, as he still continues to climb in tournament performance, while Ness continues to stay around the bottom, that should tell you something.

I do recall there being a list of follow ups people could do, but that was in fact made by someone who failed to DI with Lucas/Ness. Does anyone happen to have a list of follow ups that include DI? I mean, usually, grabs are pretty fast (aside from tether grabs), and unless you have incredible range with speed or just raw speed alone, I can imagine that most of the follow ups that used to work, like the previously thought dashing grab follow ups, will fail.

Also, I'd like to know these finite chaingrabs on Lucas/Ness, because I can't seem to recall any.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol as I was typing this, two46 posts were made.
@SL: What do you mean with the stutter step comment? Both of them can stutterstep (full one with dashdance beginning). Falcon's has longer range and longer lag.

I actually think Sonic may have similar if not more range since he has a disjointed hitbox around his fist.
Its also more useful since his Fsmash comes out faster with less lag than Falcon's.
STOP EDITING JUST POST!

 

[adumbrodeus]

No No No No NO, he's not even better than Ganon. Ganon actually makes his hits counts, Autocanceled Dair into Upsmash is 50%, probably more damage then two falcon punches. He has a decent tech chasing game, is a heavy and can tank things out, Ganoncide when he gets up a stock. Ok priority and can acutally approach and better aerials than Falcon. While his matchups are bad, they're not quite as bad as Falcon's with virtually no advantages against anyone. I still believe Ganon is still not that good, but he's not nearly as bad as Falcon.


Not to mention, just reading the SBR's description of him you can tell they obviously don't think he's that bad.

Nah man, they know he's bad, but bad is a relative term. He can still definitely do some damage, and they just wanted to point that out.

Believe me, I know that he has those advantage, I used them all (except gannoncide, ledge tactics didn't really come into all that much otherwise I would've used my favorite trick...) to 2-stock my friends metaknight earlier today. He's about even skill with me (he can beat my main), so, yeah, properly used gannondorf can kill, given the chance.


Still, so can falcon, his hits count less, but he can usually get more in because he's faster in every way. The match-up thread is here, and Captain Falcon has 3 neutrals and an advantage, while Gannondorf just has 5 neutrals. Having one concrete advantage is better then an additional "even match-up".


Oh, and Gannondorf's dair can't be auto-canceled, when thunderstorm (the AT for removing dair's lag from short-hop) just makes the attack's lag over before gannondorf reaches the ground, and groundlag only occurs if the attack is still in lag or being performed when you hit the ground. It's only auto-canceled if at some point during the attack you can touch the ground to remove the lag.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I actually think Ganondorf is better than Ike simply because his attacks are faster and can handle tighter situations a bit better. That's just my opinion though. I can see Ganondorf rising up within his own tier, but never reach mid tier.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I actually think Ganondorf is better than Ike simply because his attacks are faster and can handle tighter situations a bit better. That's just my opinion though. I can see Ganondorf rising up within his own tier, but never reach mid tier.

No way, Ike has more then one advantageous match-up... (a lot more then one actually)

Try his bair, jab combo, f-tilt, up-tilt, nair... you get the idea. Ike definitely has some fast moves, you're just using the wrong ones.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Nah man, they know he's bad, but bad is a relative term. He can still definitely do some damage, and they just wanted to point that out.

Believe me, I know that he has those advantage, I used them all (except gannoncide, ledge tactics didn't really come into all that much otherwise I would've used my favorite trick...) to 2-stock my friends metaknight earlier today. He's about even skill with me (he can beat my main), so, yeah, properly used gannondorf can kill, given the chance.


Still, so can falcon, his hits count less, but he can usually get more in because he's faster in every way. The match-up thread is here, and Captain Falcon has 3 neutrals and an advantage, while Gannondorf just has 5 neutrals. Having one concrete advantage is better then an additional "even match-up".


Oh, and Gannondorf's dair can't be auto-canceled, when thunderstorm (the AT for removing dair's lag from short-hop) just makes the attack's lag over before gannondorf reaches the ground, and groundlag only occurs if the attack is still in lag or being performed when you hit the ground. It's only auto-canceled if at some point during the attack you can touch the ground to remove the lag.

Remember, that Matchup chart isn't even official, it shouldn't be used as in term of fact, but as a point of reference. And also, I question what you said in bold, Falcon's attacks for the most part come out slow and can be telegraphed with ease, Ganondorf basicially has the same attacks for the most part, but they are much stronger but even slower. I'll take Slow speed and very high damage and knockback than below average speed and low to mediocore Damage and knockback. Not to mention Ganon can approach much better than Falcon and doesn't get outprioritized by jabs >_>.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Remember, that Matchup chart isn't even official, it shouldn't be used as in term of fact, but as a point of reference. And also, I question what you said in bold, Falcon's attacks for the most part come out slow and can be telegraphed with ease, Ganondorf basicially has the same attacks for the most part, but they are much stronger but even slower. I'll take Slow speed and very high damage and knockback than below average speed and low to mediocore Damage and knockback. Not to mention Ganon can approach much better than Falcon and doesn't get outprioritized by jabs >_>.

Nothing is ever 100% confirmed, I just find their match-ups good in general. Any time it's referenced to, the unspoken (or spoken) assumption is "if the match-ups hold" and and for that reason it's more then fair to disagree with the match-ups in order to make a point. I said something to that affect when I referenced to it before.

If you have any issues the match-up data, please point it out, I have no issue debating them.


Fast is a relative term, I meant fast as compared to Gannondorf.

Though, yeah, Gannondorf's attacks are pretty different this time around, they share some commonalities though and certain attacks are near identical. Let's just say I have no intention of exchanging Gannondorf's up-smash for Falcon's...

And over-b, I need my tech-chasing game.

Personally, I'll take those attributes (gannondorf is one of my secondaries after all)... but ultimately I think that the high speed and better attack speed gives more advantageous match-ups in general. Even if jabs do outprioritize.

 

[Raistlin]

Ganon is top tier.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Actually, I jumped the gun in saying that Ganondorf was better than Ike, but I can still see Ganondorf jumping up if his attack speed really does help him.

 

[hizzlum]

Does any think that the SBR is going to finish a tier list soon? I doubt an accurate one will form until the end of the year when brawl meta-game could vastly change with new AT's being found constantly(the infinite jump with everyone is a big breakthrough that happened recently). But I doubt that snake and Mk will be anything but top and the "high" tier group of G&W,falco,Marth,ROB,DDD and maybe wario(He's been doing strangly vry well at tournies and has overall good matchups) won't change.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

There's a good chance they won't have one out until around March-April 2009

 

[Yuna-Maria]

There's a good chance they won't have one out until around March-April 2009

I'd say that's a good estimate.

 

[Grunt]

Ganon is top tier.

Yes
10Ganontiers

 

[Fogo]

Ganon is wack-tier people.


why are you even discussing this?
and yes, falcon is worse.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dude man I understand why you guys think Falcon is worse than Ganondorf, I used to think that too.

It's rly hard to tell now if Falcon is worse than Ganondorf because we discovered his Up-B has a lot of good uses, and that he can still D-air to Knee which is a better finisher combo than what most characters have. Falcon is hurt a little less by camping too which must be considered, and he doesn't get gimped.

I think both characters are underestimated right now.

 

[Roller]

guys, bowser should realy be bottom tier...he has like virtually no good matchups, especially vs anybody over low tier.

 

[Aggression]

guys, bowser should realy be bottom tier...he has like virtually no good matchups, especially vs anybody over low tier.

suiciding? 0-60% fire breath on snake? makes nades explode? kills heavy weights at 90%????? dude bowser is godly