Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[DMG]

Easy, just find the characters that are radically worse (or, I guess, less good) than the character above them. For example, G-Dub is pretty much assumed to be third or around that area at this point (I don't mean to start a debate over that so don't quote this) but he doesn't perform nearly as well as Snake and MK do. Or, if you want to see it in a concrete way, see Ankoku's Character Placement thread. You'll notice that the points assigned to each character are much different between gaps.

I guess that for me, it just seems like the gap between certain Tiers is vaguely defined. Who is to say that Snake and MK can be in Top Tier but another character or two can't join them? Who is to say that High Tier can't have 20 characters or that each character can't have his own individual Tier? I know that the SBR does the official Tier list and I know that they will do a good job, but sometimes it seems like there will always be questions about things like "How many Tiers should there be?" or "How many characters deserve/fit into this Tier?".

 

[Corner-Trap]

CT, while I admire your persistence and I think your focus on matchups is admirable, I also think you have a tendency to underestimate a character if you haven't played a good one yourself, and also how much a character can benefit from having good matchups with high tier characters. For example, looking at the matchup chart, even if it is somewhat inaccurate, by the numbers Donkey Kong should not be doing well in tournaments. But because he has a neutral to good matchup against Snake and a neutral matchup against Metaknight, and pretty good or neutral matchups against other high tiers, he is consistently doing very well in tournaments. In fact, the only reason he's not higher is because the NY weeklies aren't currently counted in the results--Bum wins with him virtually every week there. I think the same is true for Wario--from what I can see he is fast and agile enough that he does pretty well against Snake, and goes neutral with a lot of other high tiers. I also think that the reason Olimar is not doing as well in tournaments as might be expected is not exactly because of his recovery and light weight, although they are factors, which I think are the reasons you give for your placement of him. I think it is because he simply has bad matchups against high tiers, which is why he gets so many top 8s and has only one victory. I'm not at all good at using Wario, but I still think he is at worst upper middle tier, and more likely high tier, on the basis of the fairly consistent tournament results we see. Note that it's not just Futile using Wario to great effect; if you look around, when people actually use Wario they seem to do quite well. While he may not be the best purely by counting good, neutral and bad matchups, the reality of the Smash scene is that a lot of it is dominated by Snakes and MKs, and any character who can do well against them will probably do well even if he or she has not-so-good matchups against lower tiers.

I like how you assume things about me with no evidence, but I'll let that pass. Yes I do put a lot of emphasis on match-ups, and yes I do take notice to who has good match-ups against the current top and high tiered characters. DK does do well against Snake and MK but he loses out to some of the high tiered characters such as Falco and DDD, which is why I consider along the upper end of mid tier. On Wario what does he match-ups look like against the top/high tiered characters? I don't really see him being at an advantage vs. any of them. As far as Olimar goes he only loses out badly to two characters which are MK and Wolf.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Jigglypuff seems pretty cheap in brawl.
First off the character has nice defensice tactics, you can easily pull off, also brawl allot more air tactics involved then melee ever did and jiggly puff is not so bad in the air.
Juggly Puff can also use rollout as a recovery, you make one little mistake when he is coming back, you could easily be dead.

Defense? No. Please, say it isn't true.
Jiggz has so little range that her Pound in the air and f-smash on the ground are really the only choices she has to deal with oncoming attackers.

More air tactics in Brawl then in Melee? No.
The only real air tactic that has been improved is dair into rest. That only works if every hit of dair hits anyway.

Rollout as recovery works fine until you miss the stage completely or your opponent uses a projectile. Quick lesson here: Projectile cancels Rollout.

@ isomorphism: You make good points in your posts, but please break them up like this post. Wall of texts will make people angry and they're hard to read.

Edit:

I know that the SFR does the unofficial Tier list and I know that they will do a awesome job

Fixed.

 

[isomorphism]

This is why SRK has two tier list for Third Strike.

A match-up based one. And then a list which is about tournament viability. Basically how well a character will do in an environment with only top tiers and high tiers.

I think this is the best idea EVAR!!!

I think weighting high and top tiers might be a better idea than discounting the other characters completely. I don't know exactly how such weighting would be done, but I think it could be done so that it took into account the possibility of one of the weirder bad matchups actually occurring (this might especially be a good idea when you take into account that people counterpick) without being silly and giving it equal importance to a bad (or good) matchup with someone like G&W or Marth.

 

[Corner-Trap]

To make a matchup based tier list, we would need a good matchup chart.

Yes I agree, which is why we need more people contributing to the match-up thread then just low level players who are new to Smash in general.

For one its an argument concerning two characters.
Something you often see in tier discussion.
Who is higher Olimar or Falco etc etc.
Who is the better character?

Under your idea you've never seen two people arguing about which character is better.

Furthermore my argument is that Sonic is not crappy as the common conception goes.
Sonic can approach very well, combo decently, can space well.
his man cons are that he can't kill easily ( not only because of the lack of kill moves but how difficult it can be to place an opponent in such a position to KO them)
His lack of priority.

I main Sonic, Link, Marth, TL and Falco so no I am not a Sonic fanboy.
If I see someone say something like (Sonic's recovery is lesser than CF) then I m going to lacerate them if their reasoning does not work.

Uhhhh....... I was merely joking, no need to get so defensive.

This is why SRK has two tier list for Third Strike.

A match-up based one. And then a list which is about tournament viability. Basically how well a character will do in an environment with only top tiers and high tiers.

I think this is the best idea EVAR!!!

I guess I'll make a second part to the "Character Ranking Discussion" thread on SRK to have two tier lists. One based on match-ups, the other based on tournament results.

 

[isomorphism]

I like how you assume things about me with no evidence, but I'll let that pass. Yes I do put a lot of emphasis on match-ups, and yes I do take notice to who has good match-ups against the current top and high tiered characters. DK does do well against Snake and MK but he loses out to some of the high tiered characters such as Falco and DDD, which is why I consider along the upper end of mid tier. On Wario what does he match-ups look like against the top/high tiered characters? I don't really see him being at an advantage vs. any of them. As far as Olimar goes he only loses out badly to two characters which are MK and Wolf.

The Wario boards seem to believe Wario has at least a neutral matchup against Snake, and from the video evidence and tournament results I find that hard to dispute--the super armor on Wario's Fsmash helps a lot more than you might think with the killing problem, and an intelligent Wario can pretty easily avoid being gimped. Wario's excellent DI and weight also makes him surprisingly hard to kill. And Wario is far better than Snake in the air, which helps balance his inferior game on the ground.

As for DK, he does lose to Falco, and DDD's chaingrab obviously gives him a hard time, but while both characters are popular they are a lot less popular than the other two, and can be pretty easily counterpicked. I also seem to remember that at some tournaments DDD's standing infinite on DK is banned, which makes the matchup much easier for him.

Olimar does have pretty bad matchups with MK and Wolf, but he's not excellent against any of the high tiers, really, which means that while he can dominate the low tiers and not-so-great players, he very rarely actually wins a tournament. The problem is that MK doesn't really have easy counterpicks like D3 or (to a lesser extent) Falco; Snake is a counter but you have to be a good Snake to counter a good MK, while an okay Fox can still do well against a good D3. From what I can recall, in your tier list you're placing Olimar lower than his matchups suggest he should be--I assume because of results from actual play--and my proposal is that his bad matchups at the top play a bigger role in this than factors like his being easily gimped and light, which are already factored into every matchup.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well the character ranking list done by Ankoku is pretty much the tournament based tier list already, although it's constantly being updated. In about 2 or 3 months I think it will be very accurate.

Now we just need to fix the match-up chart so it's accurate then make the match-up based chart.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic's Up-B gains really little horizontal distance so it's pretty predictable.

Please watch at 3:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI

By the way, all other characters can do the same as Sonic by holding down on the control stick while Up-Bing. Sonic can never autograb the ledge, so OH WELL FOR HIM. His Up-B is basically like G&W's I guess, but 1/10 the effectivity.

For the last time, Sonic is not supposed to grab the ledge when recovering. Sonic can use his side B, homming attack, spin shot, and up B to get to pretty much anywhere he wants. And even after all that he can still attack you, and he even gets his B moves back if he does get hit. Have you even played Sonic? Or at least played against one that actually used more than Up B to recover?

Hah, that's actually what I've been saying. Sonic gets pretty good distance, but his recovery is bad because much of it is easily intercepted, and it's rather predictable, and he doesn't have nearly good enough aerial attacks to compliment the fact his Up-B allows him to attack.

Wrong. You're assuming that he's using his up B in the middle of nowhere. How about if the Sonic player isn't ******** and just uses his homming attack, side B, and second jump to get really close to the stage. Heck, he doesn't even need to use his up B most of the time, and he uses it anyway to dodge edgeguards (thank you invincibility frames). You're also forgetting that Sonic can just airdodge after his up B if he doesn't want to attack, and that airdodging, fairing, or bairing all increase the amount of horizontal distance Sonic travels after his up B.

Falcon's gets about as good distance, but his Up-B has very good priority in front AND above him and goes quickly (try Up-Bing someone above you, you'll kinda warp to them in the process so yes, it has very good priority). Also he has the Raptor Boost spike to compete with Sonic's Up-B spike.

What are you smoking and can I have some? First, get this straight.

Sonic recovers with more moves than his up B. His recovery consists of homming attack, Side B/spinshot, second jump (if not used by spin shot), up B in that order. 99% of the time he won't be using his up B until he's actually really close to the stage, and even then he could just homming attack to get back on (but that's more of a mixup. Up B is much safer).

If you have a huge disjointed hitbox, it will more easily intercept Sonic than it will intercept Falcon.

Luckily it only grabs in front of him, which makes him completely vulnerable from above (Sonic's psuedospiking dair says hi). Sonic's up B however, has invincibility frames to protect him from being hit out of it, and even when those are over he can airdodge or attack for increased safety.

BTW, in case you didn't notice, Sonic's up B actually travels more horizontal distance than Captain Falcon's. Just test it out on FD. (Make sure to fair or airdodge immediately after Sonic's up B. It actually adds horizontal distance).

Besides, Falcon initially gets very good distance by DIing alone since his air speed is good. My point still saying that Falcon's recovery gets the job done better.

And my point is that Sonic's recovery consists of more than just up Bing, and is actually much harder to edgeguard than Captain Falcon's becuase of his great aerial speed coupled with his spin shot (which travels faster than Falcon could ever dream to) and homming attack.

Besides, this is not melee where Falcon's recovery dies against anyone who grabs the ledge. This is Brawl where you can grab ledgeghoggers and stagespike them. Or similar **** with the Forward B.

And for the people who actually go of the stage and hit you? Yeah, why edgehog when you could just spike him. Or just keep hitting with weak aerials so he can't recover.

Summing it up both have rather predictable recoveries. Sonic can attack out of his, and gets some more distance which doesn't really matter, but he can't autograb the ledge with his Up-B.

How about you stop up Bing when you're in the bubble and actually use his other moves like a smart person. Sonic can litterally recover from the very bottom corner of the screen and make it onto the stage with his recovery. Now, let's cut the distance he needs to travel in half, but keep all the options (and actually gain a new one, since homming attack actually aids your horizontal recover). Sonic can neutral B, side B->jump cancel, spin shot, down B->jump cancel, or simply drift foward, all before using his up B (if he even wants to, since with all that stuff he can easily make it to the stage anyway). After his up B (which he's already within ledgegrab range anyway), he can attack or airdodge to make himself even harder to hit out of it (if the invincibility during the first half wasn't enough).

Yeah, what can Falcon do? He drifts foward, and then up B's or Side Bs (side B becomes unavailable if he drifts below the ledgegrab range). Much more telegraphed and actually much easier to stop, since his up B does not grab above or below him. All you need is a decent ranged dair (even Sonic can hit him from above) or a fair with good vertical range (or uair that hits sideways) and you're pretty much set. And if that isn't enough for you, you can just speed hug the ledge so he can't grab it, get back up when he lands on the stage, and hit him back of with a shffl'd bair (or back throw). So you can't just poke him fro the stage anymore, but he's still one of the easier characters to edgeguard.

Falcon gets more than sufficient distance to recover, and has a very easy time going for the ledge, and his techniques used to recover have better priority and are more dangerous than anything else Sonic can pull off, making him harder in intercept overall.

And when the ledge is not available? You know, what ever happend to standing at the ledge, running of, and then grabbing it behind you so Falcon doesn't get it? Sonic will not be getting hit out of his recovery, because he'll simply go above not only the ledge, but everything the opponent can do, then safely airdodge his way down (or dair if he needs to get down in a hurry) Sonic is harder to intercept because he's harder to hit out of his recovery. Captain Falcon is vulerable from above and below, while Sonic isn't vulnerable at all. Falcon can grab people with his, but Sonic will simply go under them and up B on the other side, or up B over them, or homming attack at them, or side B through them. Sonic has more than just his up B you know.

Plus, Falcon is heavier. Basically going back to the point that Falcon survives longer than Sonic.

Sonic can recover from much farther than Falcon, and does not depend on grabbing the ledge to recover (which is a good thing) Falcon is also easier to string attacks on, since his aerials have very little priority. And as soon as you know how Falcon's up B works (has large grab range in front of him, but none from above and below), then it becomes very easy to edgeguard him. Just stand on the ledge until he gets in line with it. If you see him start a side B, run of and speed hug the ledge. If he starts an up B (very easy to distinguish) approach him from below and use an aerial that will hit him sideways, as long as it doesn't have to hit from directly in front of him. If he drops lower, wait for him to up B and either speed hug (if he drops down really low before using it) or run off and bair if he uses it early.

Sonic's recovery varies much more, because he has a plethora of recovery options that can be done in any order (as long as up B is last), travel very quickly and very far, and have very little risk to himself, since his up B has invincibility during the first half, and allows him to do anything (except B moves) during the second half (including airdodging).

 

[Frown]

I think Yoshi will be middle tier. bigman40 has recently discovered a glitch which enables Yoshi to double jump twice.

 

[FS Fantom]

I think Yoshi will be middle tier. bigman40 has recently discovered a glitch which enables Yoshi to double jump twice.

LINK NAO PLEASE

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

This Sh*t Has Bothered ChozenOne for Far Too Long...

Top-

Snake
Metaknight
Game and Watch
Falco
DDD

Each places consistently high.. basically this is how each's matchup chart would go just based on tourneys, and toon specific forums...

High-

Marth
Wolf
Zelda
Pit
Wario

At this point we get into alittle more obscure territory.. again we have more consistant placers.. but also varying character choices really bases upon which coast you're from.. Wario from the WC.. Pit from the EC. Marth has alot of KO potential.. but is gimped easily enough to not warrent top tier status... Wolf.. usually lower than Marth in tourney.. and Marth does better against Top Tiers... Zelda does VERY well against the lower tiers, but can struggle w/ some top tier matchups, and go even w/ others.

Upper-

R.O.B.
Pikachu
Toon Link
Mario
Fox

All solid characters but due to some VERY poor matchups w/ the tiers above them.. they do not make the cut for High/Top tier. Generally speaking all of these characters can also be played offensively/defensively, and are outstanding at comboing, but nothing any of these characters has, sets them out from the rest of the cast ahead of them...

Middle-

Ike
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Luigi

All of these toons characters are decent/good but can either be gayed, or easily stopped... it is MY belief that most of the mid tier characters are quite easily ***** by most of the top tier cast.. and much of the high tier.

Low-

Link
Donkey Kong
Ness
Peach
Samus

Less solid.. less consistent.. not as good at comboing.. nothing truely broken.. Link is an amazing spammer.. Ness has a nasty Spike/Fair.. Peach's Fair is quite amazing.. GrappleCancels are too good.. DK has the new WoP.... but all in all they just get HORRIBLY gayed by Top/High Tier toons.

Bottom-

Bowser
Kirby
Sheik
Lucas
Yoshi

Honestly this tier, and WTF tier are basically in any order you want... the above five belong where they're at... and the below crap belongs in the trash... quote me say whatever you would like... it doesn't matter.. tourney placings and matchups talk.. not how you "feel" a toon does against the world. That is a silly argument.. Throw out an MK/ROB against ANY of the characters out between bottom/wtf, and i'll see them NOT be gayed... yeah i doubt it >_>

Wtf I'm not even Kidding how dare you-

Olimar
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Sonic
ZSS
Ganondorf
Pokemon Trainer

Right now you're all thinking... dude seriously.. Olimar/ZSS/PT in WTF tier.. well this is why...

first off.. PT is TOTALLY inconsistent.. the opposing player gets a free hit on whatever pokemon the trainer wts to switch to if they don't like.. we'll say Charizard.. secondly... all of the 3 pokemon are HORRIBLY gayable.. PT=EPIC FAIL.

I will MM the best PT in the United States for $5000.00 i'll write out a check, and we can have the tourney director hold the money for us.. btw i play ROB. GTFO w/ that PT sh*t... he is NOT playable. End of story.. EVERYONE can gay them.. it's like watching DDD infinite a Mario.. or an IC player CG a DDD [though that is quite hilarious]..

ZSS.. recovery is such an important factor in competitive smash that it is truly necessary to NOT play a tether toon in order to succeed.. this argument really goes for Olimar aswell.. honestly when Yoshi ***** both of them b/c he can insto-grab the ledge w/ his doublejump Bair'ing either of them during their 2nd jump you know there is a problem here..

For some odd reason both of those tether characters were thought to be "broken" when the game first came out, and then better spammer came along *cough* snake/pit *cough* and olimar bit the dust... then more players began to learn to hit these characters off the stage, and then just GRAB THE F*CKING LEDGE... gg? i'm not quite sure wtf Nintendo was thinking but i've got to tell you.. they ROYALLY SCREWED UP.

But what can you do..

Btw.. all of you telling me that Sonic is amazing, and i should watch Lucky play... well.. Sonic is not good... its like when "Neo" was maining Roy.... just not good at all.. he's even easy to gimp, combo, and CANNOT kill.. no jones. Sonic Blows.

Emblem Lord.. help me out here my good sir...



Good Day Sirs.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Kirby isnt bottom tier...

 

[quik2288]

hey ill play u wit sonic to prove he doesnt suck

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

You are incorrect sir.. i play w/ Gonzo almost everyday... and Gonzo is the BEST kirby in the US... trust me. He is bottom tier.. even Gonzo will tell you that.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

I think Yoshi will be middle tier. bigman40 has recently discovered a glitch which enables Yoshi to double jump twice.

If thats true yoshi is my new secondary lol

 

[Corner-Trap]

Ch0zen0ne, you rag all the time on other people's list saying how crappy they are, but yours is just as bad. Zelda, Pit, and Wario above R.O.B., Pika, and TL? Mario in upper tier, seriously? DK in low tier? Ness above Lucas? Bowser, Kirby, Sheik, and Lucas in bottom tier? I can't believe you actually made a WTF tier. If you were trying to be humorous then I would understand, but since you're serious I have to say thats real unprofessional.

That post overall was simply terrible. You rag on ZSS's recovery but forget to mention she can use DownB as a substitute for UpB to recovery. She can also use UpB several times unlike other tether recoveries, and it spikes if the opponent is hit by it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth outclasses Falco in almost every regard and Falco is far easier to gimp.

Marth is 5th. Heck if u go by tourney results Marth is probably 4th.

He does WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better in tourney then Falco.

It's not even debatable.

 

[aquteen]

For the Snake vs Wario match-up Warios mid air bite makes snake sad...

 

[DanGR]

For some odd reason both of those tether characters were thought to be "broken" when the game first came out, and then better spammer came along *cough* snake/pit *cough* and olimar bit the dust... then more players began to learn to hit these characters off the stage, and then just GRAB THE F*CKING LEDGE... gg? i'm not quite sure wtf Nintendo was thinking but i've got to tell you.. they ROYALLY SCREWED UP.

I loled at this pretty hard. You've NEVER played against ANY Olimar have you?(good or not) It's much harder than "just GRAB THE F*CKING LEDGE". He'd be top of high tier above GaW if he didn't have the awful recovery. Snake isn't a better spammer then Olimar and he isn't far behind Pit either.

You care to explain any further?

 

[AlcyoNite]

Wtf I'm not even Kidding how dare you-

i lmaoed so hard there...

seriously, i think nintendo f*ked up with the gameplay on this one. it was a hit and miss. i would like to go into detail about the pertinence of brawl in a competitive and analytical setting such as SWF, but idk where to go on smashboards to discuss such a thing. i'm actually looking for an unofficial consensus on a description of melee and brawl and a place where i could host a ranking of the two. anyone know where I can discuss both in the same topic and have a good turnout?

 

[isomorphism]

Ch0zen, I'm confused by a lot of your placements. One that immediately jumped out was Kirby, who has some fairly good matchups and has seen reasonably good tournament placement, and Lucas, who other than the Marth CG isn't a bad character at all. Neither really seem to fit in with Yoshi, Bowser, or (to some extent) Sheik. I'd say Samus is considerably worse than either of them, which is unfortunate because I really wanted to keep her as my main, since she's slow and has pretty bad kill options. You also have DK in low, which is very inconsistent with his consistently high placement in tournaments and the fact that he actually has pretty good matchups with the two top tier characters.

I'm also not sure how Mario qualifies for "Upper" tier; I certainly don't see why he's over Luigi in your list, when Luigi has the fire punch combo, awesome priority and aerial comboing, and three recovery moves. I think you may have limited yourself by keeping each tier to five characters, but that doesn't explain all the idiosyncrasies in your placement.

The WTF tier is really just kind of annoying, but I'm sure you knew that before you created it anyway.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Ch0zen0ne, you rag all the time on other people's list saying how crappy they are, but yours is just as bad. Zelda, Pit, and Wario above R.O.B., Pika, and TL? Mario in upper tier, seriously? DK in low tier? Ness above Lucas? Bowser, Kirby, Sheik, and Lucas in bottom tier? I can't believe you actually made a WTF tier. If you were trying to be humorous then I would understand, but since you're serious I have to say thats real unprofessional.

That post overall was simply terrible. You rag on ZSS's recovery but forget to mention she can use DownB as a substitute for UpB to recovery. She can also use UpB several times unlike other tether recoveries, and it spikes if the opponent is hit by it.

First off.. ROB, TL, and Pika have VERY difficult times against the TOP tier. All of the TOP tier. They either go even.. or do poorly. TL.. is so easily gimped, its almost a joke.. the only reason he's as high as i put him, b/c he's just a f*cking beast at comboing... and spiking. His camping isn't even that good.

Zelda/Pit are more consistant, and do better than the three you stated aswell.. Wario just does EXTREMELY well on the WC, so i can only assume that is where he should be.. i can't really speak too highly of my Wario experience seeing as i only play w/ ChuDat, Chillin, Azen, Boss, G-Reg, M2K, Forte, on a regular basis... and none of us use Wario.. but i've seen enough tourney placings to know where he SHOULD be.

DK is good.. but his recovery is basically horizontal.. it he is spiked he WILL die. He is also VERY easily combo'd... but you probably still play in an area where campers still win.. so you probably don't understand that point just yet.

Ness does better than Lucas in tourney.. no johns. It is a fact.

You also seem to be doing alot of talking for someone that didn't suggest a different place to put Bowser, Kirby, Sheik, and Lucas.. please sir... where should they be/replace on the tier list... and btw.. were those the ONLY problems you had w/ my list?

Zamus is not mid tier material.. low tier would be pushing it.. i've played Chillin's ZSS... serioulsy, if that is how ALL ZSS's play, then she's lucky to not have her own tier below WTF...

and call me unprofessional.. but WTF tier just has a nice ring to it...

 

[Blad01]

Hello all ! I propose my own tier list, please feedback and say what you think is wrong, i will explain my self

Please note this : This list is NOT based on tournaments results or popularity, just on each character potential in the game.

- Top Tier -

1) Snake
2) MetaKnight
3) Falco
4) Game & Watch

- Very High Tier -

5) Marth
6) ROB
7) Ice Climbers
8) Wario
9) Toon Link
10) Pikachu

- High Tier -

11) King Dedede
12) Zelda
13) Olimar
14) Pit
15) Wolf

- Middle [High] Tier -

16) Diddy Kong
17) Fox
18) Mario
19) Lucario
20) Luigi
21) Donkey Kong
22) Lucas

- Middle [Low] Tier -

23) Kirby
24) Sonic
25) Zero Suit Samus
26) Bowser
27) Pokemon Trainer
28) Ness
29) Peach
30) Sheik
31) Link

- Low Tier -

31) Samus
32) Yoshi
33) Ganondorf
34) Ike
35) Jigglypuff
36) Captain Falcon

Last Updates :

[06/02 : List created. It will be updated when i feel like it should ^^]

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Haha. I don't know if Smash Back Room's tier list will look like Ch0zen's, but I like his reasonings a lot better than most people's.

 

[isomorphism]

The first hit or two of DK's Up-B has super armor, and his recovery is not actually totally horizontal, so he can often avoid being spiked (not saying it isn't a problem though). He can also gimp a lot of characters himself when he's far from the stage, so it's not as one-sided as you made it appear. And yeah, he's relatively easily comboed / juggled but there aren't that many actual combos in Brawl that can't be escaped with good DI, and he can take a lot more damage than most characters as well. I don't think the reasons you gave are enough to overlook his speed, KO power, priority, super armor, three spikes and massive range and place him firmly in Low Tier, especially when you have characters like Ike (easy to gimp, big and easily comboed, significantly slower than DK but lacking significantly more power / better range) much higher than him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Uhhhh....... I was merely joking, no need to get so defensive.

Sorry I couldn't tell too easily ;-;
That and it isn't as if this is the first time people ahve been making incorrect assumptions about a character.
For Sonic its (WOMG HE CAN'TZ APPROACH OR RECOVER)
Or with the IC (THEIR INFINITE CG IS BROKEN)


its just annoying you know?
Soz I got defensive.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

I'm not going to lie.. Md/Va doesn't have any Stellar Olimars atm, but even still i must say that the decent/good ones that i've played really haven't impressed me enough to make me change how i feel about the character as a whole.. also if you go into the olimar forums and look at matchup info... well.. just go, and then come back and post over here >_>;

Mr Lord- last time i posted a top/high tier i got eaten alive for putting falco where i did before.. so i put him higher.. i actually agree w/ you... but inorder for more smashers to agree w/ what you're saying you have to appease the masses..

 

[AlcyoNite]

Ch0zen0ne, you rag all the time on other people's list saying how crappy they are, but yours is just as bad. Zelda, Pit, and Wario above R.O.B., Pika, and TL? Mario in upper tier, seriously? DK in low tier? Ness above Lucas? Bowser, Kirby, Sheik, and Lucas in bottom tier? I can't believe you actually made a WTF tier. If you were trying to be humorous then I would understand, but since you're serious I have to say thats real unprofessional.

That post overall was simply terrible. You rag on ZSS's recovery but forget to mention she can use DownB as a substitute for UpB to recovery. She can also use UpB several times unlike other tether recoveries, and it spikes if the opponent is hit by it.

Zamus's down-b recovery is worthless, and chosen recognizes bad recovery when he sees it. marth's third jump is plenty better than zamus', but hes still gimpable. dont let the ease of playing brawl fool you...people still can have bad recovery. in addition, you'll be hard pressed to find a time where you have to use zss' up b as opposed to her down b, after which u have missed the up b and must try to use it again. by that time, ur dead.

i wouldnt play down his wtf tier so harshly. his mockery of characters perfeclty fits the mockery of smash that is Brawl, imho.

moreover, his tier placement, while not perfect (can safely be said due to limited testing time and analysis), is based on what any other tier list is based on. i personally wouldnt put into question hardly any of his rankings (though i would like to see a good wario). maybe try viewing some pro matches or attending some tournies, but if i were u, i wouldnt waste the time. Brawl is a waste of time...

please excuse me if my posts seem aggravated. its just that i played so much brawl this past weekend with someone who mocked me when i picked up the controller to practice some f-air tipper spacing in melee. "Why are you playing that game?" After which comment I tried to explain the superiority of melee while trying to suggest a match or two. "Oh no, I'm not playing with that glitching!" "Glitching? You mean the freeze glitch or something?" "Huh? I'm talking about that wavegliding thing you do; I refuse to play with a hacker (or something to that effect)"

What do you do after that? Well, I wasn't going to do something like refuse to play Brawl in the same manner. That would put me on the same level. So I played Brawl with him...A LOT.

And when his friend came over, I began to set the rules: "No items!? You mean you play with no items?" "...Tournament regulation provides that you do not play with items..." "Well, let's at least play with the weapon items, like the saber and the bat, but not the hammer; that makes it unfair" So most of our games were played with the "fair" items.

Finally, I got my closure at the end of the last day at this guy's place. Mind you, we had only played 4 person FFA's until this point. And we only played some 1v1's after my brother left the room and no one else was there to play with us. After ****** his first two stocks with my Shiek (bottom tier, remember?) vs. his Ness, he Sd'ed his last life: "You've got way too much 1v1 experience for me to handle"

This is the plight of all competitive smashers. I address all of SWF when I ask you to please find something revolutionizing like L-Cancelling or Wavedashing so that I can reclaim my 3-stocks/4-stocks against noobs, and Pika-Thunder spammers and Pit-Arrow spammers won't ever take off two of my stocks and claim that "they got so close and could beat me with just a little bit more training"

I want my answer to that comment to be "No, do you know how long it took me to get this good in Smash? The only way for you to be on my level will be first to call me Sensei!"

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Va is too good.

 

[Popertop]

Chozen, why is Bowser Bottom?
He's not bottom.
He's low-mid at least.

And where are your tourney placings if you play with all these good people so much?

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

He's at the Top of Bottom.. so no johns about him being at least "low/mid"... in all honesty... i didn't even want to put titles on the tiers at all.... b/c it just aggrivates ppl into saying "so and so should be so and so.." that is silly..

tell me why?

imo Bowser gets horribly combo'd by EVERYONE and has bad Top/Upper/High tier matchups.

Name 5 toons out of those 15 that Bowser has advantage against....

 

[Blad01]

No feedback on my tier list ? (p_q) I mean, mine is near perfect, and a LOT BETTER than CHozen's one. :D

 

[DanGR]

I'm not going to lie.. Md/Va doesn't have any Stellar Olimars atm, but even still i must say that the decent/good ones that i've played really haven't impressed me enough to make me change how i feel about the character as a whole.. also if you go into the olimar forums and look at matchup info... well.. just go, and then come back and post over here >_>;

Decent olimar players are hard to distinguish from great olimar players. The general playstyle is pretty much the same from person to person. I'm assuming your opponents are in fact not very good at all from what I've read so far, it's just that you can't distinguish the difference. Just about the only things you can point out that point out one olimar being better than another are the following:

-Aiming pikmen and when to throw-pretty self explanatory.

-Pikmen differentiation-having to do with choosing to different things in certain circumstances based on what the pikmen lineup looks like. this is very hard to do and keep up with. This is pretty much impossible for your opponent to keep up with-so in reality, saying that predicting what your opponent will do-is a dumb idea.

-Spacing-in olimar's case, it's getting setup after being too close for comfort from an opponent. This means dsmash, rolling, airdodging away from a scene, running away while grabbing, throwing pikmen to space, etc.

-Capitalizing on pikmen killing- When olimar's opponent stops or jumps to kill pikmen, Olimar players need to dash in and punish accordingly. This is HUGE to his gameplay.

-When to pull and when not to- This is to avoid those situations where you don't have any pikmen left to attack normally. Pikmen should be pulled in not so punishable places. Those places are similiar to when Diddy should pull out his bananas. It's not hard, but bad players get into these bad situations more often than do better players.

That's about it unless I've missed something. As for going into the matchup info in the Olimar threads, we haven't really made one yet. I myself am attempting to organize a weekly matchup thread that's been alive for a week so far. This week is wario. It's getting there. I'll organize it so we'll have most matchups covered sooner or later. If you're looking for matchup info, you can head over to the matchup thread that IvanEva has so wonderfully decided to sponsor. It's not perfect, but it's getting there. The Olimar matchups are pretty solid if you ask me, except a couple checks and X's need to be enlarged.

@Blad01, your list is pretty good, but I'd place Olimar above Zelda. Imo he has a big check over her, and he also has more better matchups I think. The rest, I can't argue with b/c it's potential tiers and partly cuz I agree.

 

[Caael]

I Get Analed By The Tier List Because It Means So ****ing Much To Everybody

I Suck Off Brawl Because It Is Such An Amazing Game

 

[ragnarock]

DANgr, good info on olimar. I actually learned a thing a too. How do you feel about the matchup between him and G@W.

 

[Kiwikomix]

What A Cool Guy

He Can Start Every Word With A Capital Letter

 

[ShadowLink84]

Really Don't Know How He Can Do It Without Killing Himself.

 

[Roller]

Chozen, why is Bowser Bottom?
He's not bottom.
He's low-mid at least.

And where are your tourney placings if you play with all these good people so much?

Um, tiers are determined by the character's matchups vs the metagame, which consists mainly (not only, just more so) of the top tier characters. Of which I don't really see any good matchups for Bowser.

There is even a thread up in THE BOWSER boards that's name is Bowser has no good matchups...

You are simply being blinded by your love of the character. I understand where you are coming from, however there is just nothing to back up your claim. Honestly, I don't even know why chozen even gave you that he is in the upper portion of the bottom tier.

You should be greatful for that.

 

[St. Viers]

Chozen: I'm sorry, but DK has to be higher. He has a good matchup vs Snake and MK, and the only person in top tier he has trouble with is falco, really. He has a harder time against the spammy high tier chars, but as he can simply tilt through most projectiles, he isn't as screwed against spammers as one would think.

His tilts come out quick and have so much range that you can stuff most approaches, except for disjointed hitboxes. His d-throw sets up for tech chasing/punishing, he can still combo from cargo, and can combo simply by hitting, making them break out. He owns on stages with platforms, as they increase his mobility, and allow him to mess with peopel above him, thanks to his tilts, smashes, and n/u-airs.

I respect your opinion, and I like yoru insight into some chars (plus the fact that you're using actual info+statistics), but wrt DK, I feel your simple being lazy.

Also, Toon link is wicked hard to gimp thanks to being able to spam projectiles while recovering, and clear the ledge with bombs.

He has one of the stronger spikes, and insane aerial power.

 

[Adapt]

I hate it when ppl say that ZSS has a terrible recovery.
One of the best ways to tell a good ZSS from a bad one is how they recover. Most of the time, to gimp her you have to dodge 3 separate attacks. Even if you do gimp her theres a good chance you are going down too. Also, f-B can both attack and grab the ledge at the same time (not the easiest thing to do, but with practice you can space it right)
You can't even put hers in the same category as olimar's recovery

Sure it is gimpable, but so is any character's. (exceptions being rob, and the balloons off the top of my head) And many characters have a **** harder time making it back than she does

EDIT: I forgot that you can use up-B at the height of any normal or footstool jump to gain about 20% height. and her down-B has a footstool capability that will shoot you almost the entire length of FD. The footstool can be done off of attacks, items and projectiles.