Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Blistering Speed]

I think Meta's worst counter is DK tbh

 

[Kaizo]

I think Meta's worst counter is DK tbh

I'd say Snake is a worse matchup for MK just because Snake is hella-good, too. I've seen good DKs, but MK just has too much priority for DK to be a counter.

 

[Blistering Speed]

lolwut? A Dk that knows how to use his tilts, B Air and B Moves destroys MK's, moreso then Snake who just because is ''hella-good'' does not make him better then a lower tiered character in a certain matchup.'

 

[Corner-Trap]

Your views are actually pretty similar with mine! I think the tier is pretty accurate so far...maybe Captain Falcon up a bit, and Olimar moved up into high....

CF sucks hard in Brawl, I still don't see why people put themselves under the delusion that he's anywhere near decent. Approach, camping, and ground game are all pitiful. Air game, edge guarding, and recovery are only decent. He can't build up damage nor KO reliably, and he's at a disadvantage in almost all of his match-ups. CF just isn't good.

On SRK we had Olimar in high tier for the longest but eventually decided to move him down to mid because of his recovery and noticeable bad match-ups versus some of the other top and high tier characters such as MK and Wolf for example.

pikachu need to be higher... maybe above wolf, G&W or R.O.B.

Bottom of high tier is a good place for Pikachu, he's not necessarily worse than any of the above characters, it's just that they do better against more characters than he doers.

Bowser should probably be bottom of mid at worst, Olimar should definitely be in high somewhere, Lucario might be bottom of high or top of mid. Also Charizard is somewhere in mid. Ivysaur shouldn't be bottom, probably low, though. Mario's better than everyone in Low tier or below, excluding Charizard and Bowser who should be higher up anyway.

I've considered moving Bowser to mid tier, but I deemed that he has way to many bad match-ups to move past low tier. I already went over Olimar, and Lucario deserves to be in mid tier. Just like Bowser, Charizard has way to many bad match-ups to move to mid tier. Ivysaur is probably the most debated character on whether she needs to be in low or bottom tier, but at least we can safely say that she's somewhere on the lower end of the tier list. As for Mario, I already went over many times on why he sucks terribly. All the characters within low tier including Gannondorf(and possibly Sonic) are all much better than Mario.

Why is Ivysaur so low? Bad recovery =/= bottom tier. And Bowser is too low also, so is Charizard.

Recovery, edge guarding, approach, and air game are all really bad. Ground game, and camping are only decent at best. All of her KO moves are really laggy, and she's terrible at building damage(I really have no idea why people insist that she's actually good at that).

IMO Ike should be low tier. He has become way to predictable, and anyone with a speed advantage should be able to take him. G&W's placement should be third. That guys got a great chasing game, powerful finishers, and good priority on most of his moves. I don't believe King Dedede is better than Pikachu. Sonics placement in bottom tier is probably a bad decision on your part. His spring gimps recoveries, his uair has a great chaining ability, and he has a decent chase game. Switch him with Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff may be able to do a WoP and her air game may be above average, but when you die at ridiculously low percents it sort of compensates for all of those qualities. It is a pretty good tier list nonetheless.

I think Ike is significantly better than all the characters in low tier, thus his mid tier placement. I completely disagree with GW being third although I can see moving him above Wolf. Falco is easily a slight notch above all the other character in high tier, and is known as a good counter versus Snake and MK, so I feel he should be third. As stated before Pikachu deserves to be at the bottom of high tier, and I don't understand why everyone is all of a sudden turning against D3, he's currently won more tournaments than even MK. I could see Sonic moving to low tier, but definitely not above Jigglypuff. She may be the lightest character in the game but GW is the second lightest and you didn't knock him for that. Also you may want to learn what compensate means, because you used it out of context.

 

[TehBo49]

IMO Snake is a worse matchup for MK. Grenades hurt MK a lot, & keep him from getting too close. DK gets outprioritized too much.

 

[Kaizo]

lolwut? A Dk that knows how to use his tilts, B Air and B Moves destroys MK's, moreso then Snake who just because is ''hella-good'' does not make him better then a lower tiered character in a certain matchup.'

Snake's ftilt and jab range is almost as good as DKs, and about as strong as DK's tilts, if not stronger, and have more knockback. Also, MK can approach from the air if DK is just tilting him, or better yet he can just tornado. I wouldn't be surprised if the lag from DK's ftilt was long enough for MK to dash grab him.

@corner-trap, what matchups are bad for Bowser? Also, I wouldn't say Sonic is bottom tier. He might have awful priority and range, but his speed does allow him to chase well, and his recovery is insanely good, unlike the rest of the bottom tier. I don't think he'll be out of low tier quite yet, though.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Snake's ftilt and jab range is almost as good as DKs, and about as strong as DK's tilts, if not stronger, and have more knockback. Also, MK can approach from the air if DK is just tilting him, or better yet he can just tornado. I wouldn't be surprised if the lag from DK's ftilt was long enough for MK to dash grab him.

If you go to the air a good DK won't be just tilting you, he'll use the B Air. Snakes only deterrent from approaching the air is mortars which I believe in this situation are worse. Also MK can 'just Tornado' against SNake too and I believe DK has a move which knocks MK out of the tornado, though don't quote me on that *goes off to investigate*

 

[Onxy]

Recovery, edge guarding, approach, and air game are all really bad. Ground game, and camping are only decent at best. All of her KO moves are really laggy, and she's terrible at building damage(I really have no idea why people insist that she's actually good at that).
QUOTE]

Well it's your opinion anyway, but here I go. her recovery is slightly better than Olimar's, her edge guarding isn't too bad against number of characters, approach your probably right, and her aerial isn't horrible. Bair is great for spacing, Uair can kill at low%, Dair can spike, and Fair has a bit of range and can kill. Her Smashes are about as laggy as Wario's (except the Usmash) with more range, can can also kill with vine whip. And she's fine at building up damage with her tilts, razor leaf, and the occasional Bullet Seed.

And about Charizard, what match ups are you referring to? The match up thread on this board?


Ughh, I messed up the quote thing some how, and I'm not fixing it.:embarrass

 

[DanGR]

Diddy, Pika, and IC have no business in the 2nd tier, Diddy shouldn't even be in the third tier either.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sx25jELFaC8&feature=related

defend your point.

 

[Corner-Trap]

@corner-trap, what matchups are bad for Bowser? Also, I wouldn't say Sonic is bottom tier. He might have awful priority and range, but his speed does allow him to chase well, and his recovery is insanely good, unlike the rest of the bottom tier. I don't think he'll be out of low tier quite yet, though.

As I said before I think Sonic could be low tier but definitely not past that. As for Bowser's bad match-ups:

Snake
Metaknight
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Wolf
Game & Watch
Toon Link
Pikachu
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Wario
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Fox
Ike
Luigi
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
Peach
Jigglypuff

Basically most of the cast.

EDIT:

Well it's your opinion anyway, but here I go. her recovery is slightly better than Olimar's, her edge guarding isn't too bad against number of characters, approach your probably right, and her aerial isn't horrible. Bair is great for spacing, Uair can kill at low%, Dair can spike, and Fair has a bit of range and can kill. Her Smashes are about as laggy as Wario's (except the Usmash) with more range, can can also kill with vine whip. And she's fine at building up damage with her tilts, razor leaf, and the occasional Bullet Seed.

And about Charizard, what match ups are you referring to? The match up thread on this board?


Ughh, I messed up the quote thing some how, and I'm not fixing it.:embarrass

I agree that Ivysaurd does have better recovery than Olimar but that makes her have the second worse recovery out of 39 characters which isn't saying much. The reason her edge guarding is bad is because every time she jumps off the stage to attack she's at just as much risk of dieing as the person she's trying to edge guard. Her KO moves are good at killing, I never said they weren't, but they all have terrible lag. She can build up damage but no where near as good as people make it out to be. Her horrible approach makes it hard for her to consistently land hits.

As far as Charizard goes he has bad match-ups against characters with good projectiles and/or long range/disjointed attacks. Also I don't pay attention to that match-up thread, I prefer actually going to character boards and reading the match-ups for said individual character.

 

[Kaizo]

If you go to the air a good DK won't be just tilting you, he'll use the B Air. Snakes only deterrent from approaching the air is mortars which I believe in this situation are worse. Also MK can 'just Tornado' against SNake too and I believe DK has a move which knocks MK out of the tornado, though don't quote me on that *goes off to investigate*

Snake has projectiles that have a good shot of knocking MK out of the tornado (nades might, nikita should with no problem). DK's ftilt MIGHT, but I doubt it.

The thing with MK is that he's such a versatile character that he can adapt to nearly any situation. The reason Snake is so good against MK is because he limits MK's approach severely in some situations, and just generally forces MK to do certain things. DK's biggest asset (aerial control) is somewhat negated by the fact that MK has disjointed attacks and high priority.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Snake can simply hold or shield drop a grenade every time MK tries to do a tornado or drill.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

As I said before I think Sonic could be low tier but definitely not past that. As for Bowser's bad match-ups:

Snake
Metaknight
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Wolf
Game & Watch
Toon Link
Pikachu
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Wario
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Fox
Ike
Luigi
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik
Kirby
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle
Peach
Jigglypuff

Basically most of the cast.

EDIT:



I agree that Ivysaurd does have better recovery than Olimar but that makes her have the second worse recovery out of 39 characters which isn't saying much. The reason her edge guarding is bad is because every time she jumps off the stage to attack she's at just as much risk of dieing as the person she's trying to edge guard. Her KO moves are good at killing, I never said they weren't, but they all have terrible lag. She can build up damage but no where near as good as people make it out to be. Her horrible approach makes it hard for her to consistently land hits.

As far as Charizard goes he has bad match-ups against characters with good projectiles and/or long range/disjointed attacks. Also I don't pay attention to that match-up thread, I prefer actually going to character boards and reading the match-ups for said individual character.

just curious what are your reason for D3 being practically top tier?

 

[flyingpork002]

alright this is my first crack at it but here goes

God Tier
Snake
Metaknight

High Tier
Marth
DeDeDe
G&W
Toon Link
Pikachu
Falco
Pit

Upper Tier
Olimar
ROB
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Luigi
Fox

Mid Tier
Ike
Lucas
Zamus
Lucario
Kirby
Wario
Zelda
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
DK
Ness

Low Tier
Shiek
Samus
Sonic
Yoshi
Peach
Link

Bottom
Jigglypuff
Gannondorf
Captain Falcon

I appreciate constructive criticism or suggestions but please don't blatantly insult me.

 

[hizzlum]

just curious what are your reason for D3 being practically top tier?

Although DDD has mediorce match-ups and is on the slow side, his CG wins tournies, and so he places very high on tiers lists made by "smart" people. I personally think that he will be at the bottom of the G&W,Falco,Marth, Rob group(No specific order in the group) with toon link under him(that group is under Snake and MK)

 

[St. Viers]

Donkey Kong (this matchup is either even or *very* slightly DK)

Wario (even, maybe bowser a bit advantaged--warios range is too short --up angled f-tilt beats his aerials, and wario's grab game is too bad.)
Pit (pit has no more of an advantage on bowser than anyone else)
Ike (bowser owns ike. Ike is too slow, and gets adgeguarded too easily.)
Luigi (even, as luigi can't camp)
Peach (no)
Jigglypuff (no--read wario's but jiggz dies easier)

 

[Onxy]

I wouldn't say Ivy has terrible lag on all of them, just her Usmash. Her vine whip can be used to edgeguard actually, not by hitting them, but by running off and whipping, it grabs the ledge and catapaults you into the air, and thus won't get hit, and they fall to their death. Approach is one of the few problems, so it can affect damage input. But I can't say that Ivy = Bottom, somewhere in mid atleast but not bottom, hell low is even acceptable, but not on par with characters like Falcon or Sonic. Oh and according to the PT boards, Ivy is the best according to the match up thread. Maybe so, but unlikely.

Edit: Actually both of the matchup threads say that Ivy is the best out of the three, lol.

 

[Kaizo]

As I said before I think Sonic could be low tier but definitely not past that. As for Bowser's bad match-ups:

Snake
Metaknight
Falco (agreed on the first three, all really bad)
Marth (actually even/goes in Bowser's favor...he outranges him, and he can camp with his ground game/partially with fire)
King Dedede (I don't know the matchup, but probably bad for boozer)
R.O.B.
Wolf (really? how?)
Game & Watch (yea)
Toon Link (not so unfavorable, but probably not even)
Pikachu (even? Bowser outranges Pikachu grossly)
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Wario (how?)
Pit (how? the only possible problem is projectile spam, which doesn't overshadow the fact that Bowser completely outranges Pit and gimps his upB more easily than most...heavily in Bowser's favor)
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Diddy Kong (haven't seen this matchup a lot, it's probably even/not really bad)
Fox (I don't think so.)
Ike (this one's tough, it's probably in Ike's favor, but I'll go with Viers on this)
Luigi (I wouldn't call this a bad matchup, at worst it's slightly in the weeg's favor)
Zelda (this isn't so bad, it might go even actually)
Olimar (bad for boozer......btw Olimar is probably high/really high on the tier list)
Sheik (I wouldn't say so, but I'm unsure of things like ftilt combo atm)
Kirby (yea....frigin dair)
Lucario (don't know the matchup, but probably bad)
Ness (I wouldn't say so, Ness is really good and all, but he doesn't have a real noticable edge)
Squirtle (no? honestly, it doesn't seem like it, but maybe his small size and aerial excellence hurt bowser)
Peach (no. just no.)
Jigglypuff (also no.)

Basically most of the cast.

I'm guessing you're assuming "big size+projectile (or marth/MK)=bad matchup". Well, it's a bad assumption, or you're coming down with melee 2.0 syndrome, AKA you don't know how to play brawl.

I read Viers' assessment, and he was able to explain most of the "I'm not sure why this isn't bad for Bowser, but I know it's not" problems I had. I explained the rest, I could be wrong about some of them *starts camping against Emblem Lord*. Bowser's bad matchups are against the characters that take away his advantage of having an excellent ground game and a decent airgame (like DK, Falco, MK, Snake, DDD, ICs) or just gimp him easily (Kirby really only comes to mind, possibly Lucas, or MK yet again )

 

[Frown]

alright this is my first crack at it but here goes

God Tier
Snake
Metaknight

High Tier
Marth
DeDeDe
G&W
Toon Link
Pikachu
Falco
Pit

Upper Tier
Olimar
ROB
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Luigi
Fox

Mid Tier
Ike
Lucas
Zamus
Lucario
Kirby
Wario
Zelda
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
DK
Ness

Low Tier
Shiek
Samus
Sonic
Yoshi
Peach
Link

Bottom
Jigglypuff
Gannondorf
Captain Falcon

I appreciate constructive criticism or suggestions but please don't blatantly insult me.

Was that really your opinion or have you just looked at all the other lists? Just a question.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

lol, tier list

That's actually pretty good. I'd say, however, that Sheik should be mid-tier and not low.

 

[jiovanni007]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sx25jELFaC8&feature=related

defend your point.

SO you show me one great Diddy against an above average Snake which pretty much proves the point of tiers. 3rd tier on a 6 tier system would make him middle tier (on my system at least). I had him high in that section as well which puts him in the league of Capt. Falcon, Spamus, IC, and Jiggs of Melee. None of those 4 characters I just mentioned were bad and could even hold their own against the Marth, Peach, Sheik, Falco, and even the God-awful brokenness of Melee Fox. It was also a 1-stock which in my eyes is a marginal win. So even Diddy playing to his max (which was implied by how this was the first and assumed to be best) can get only a one stock against one of the best character. Pretty much proves to me even further that he's high mid tier.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Well I never said all those characters had heavy advantages over Bowser just an advantage which could be merely slight. And whats with people still doubting D3? Does the fact that he's actually winning more tournaments than MK mean nothing? People keep saying he's overrated, but how?

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Can someone prove Brawl's balance to me? I mean, does it really amount to more than Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede, or have fun losing?

 

[Recognize]

Can someone prove Brawl's balance to me? I mean, does it really amount to more than Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede, or have fun losing?

Just because you play low tier characters doesn't give you the right to ***** and moan. You chose those characters so shut the eff up.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dedede is a fat piece of ****.

MARTH FTW!!!!!

He is the TRUE king!!!!!

 

[Kaizo]

Just because you play low tier characters doesn't give you the right to ***** and moan. You chose those characters so shut the eff up.

Mains aren't a choice of high tier and low tier, but rather a choice made by an intuitive understanding/feel of a character. It's different for everyone.

Dedede is a fat piece of ****.

MARTH FTW!!!!!

He is the TRUE king!!!!!

Spoken like a true Melee queer

Like Marth would be king of anything. More like queen of the girls' slumber party if you ask me. Marth is like Zelda's gay friend that Zelda always cries to because Link never pays any attention to her.

 

[St. Viers]

or someone with a spammable projectile and alot of patience.

The way I see it, everyone needs to play MK against campers, and then have snake as a backup against MK XD

jk, it isn't so bad, but this is the WRONG THREAD to discuss that.


EDIT: recognize: stop trolling

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Just because you play low tier characters doesn't give you the right to ***** and moan. You chose those characters so shut the eff up.

I'm amused.
You didn't prove jack to me. I don't have a Brawl main. Now if you're so vehement about Brawl being a balanced masterpiece, then prove it to me, little boy. Unless, of course, you can't, which I believe is probably the case.
Stupid child.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Mains aren't a choice of high tier and low tier, but rather a choice made by an intuitive understanding/feel of a character. It's different for everyone.

Of course an MK main says this,

"Come now guys, pick your main according to his fun for you, and whatever you do, do NOT pick your main based on tiers. It just so happens I really like MK."

I'm joking of course.

 

[Kaizo]

Of course an MK main says this,

"Come now guys, pick your main according to his fun for you, and whatever you do, do NOT pick your main based on tiers. It just so happens I really like MK."

I'm joking of course.

Lol, I liked MK way before everyone knew he was the best. I was even coming up with the gay combos like uairX5 to tornado before people even knew he could kill stuff.

On a serious note, do you think people wake up and decide who they want to main? I mean they make a conscious decision, yes, but there's a character that just feels right.

 

[St. Viers]

^^Hey, I'd say that, and I'm a doc main...

In brawl I "main" Bowser, while having a better G&W ^_^

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Of course an MK main says this,

"Come now guys, pick your main according to his fun for you, and whatever you do, do NOT pick your main based on tiers. It just so happens I really like MK."

I'm joking of course.

I'm a 6'4 250 Black guy that plays OL in football, yet I like a small round ****** wearing a mask that can attack a mach speeds.

What does that tell you?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Exactly^

i main sonic and while feeling that my lucario is slightly better

and btw, @ lobelia

Mr. 3000 wins multiple tourneys maining sonic. does that kill your point enuff?
also melee tourneys were even worse, b/c you knew for a fact that it was play Marth, Sheik, Fox, or Falco, or wait for your inevitable defeat. in melee the top 4 chars won tourneys in this game its basically who ever is the best player with the best char. with the best secondary to complement that main, wins (emphasis on the best player part

 

[Kaizo]

I'm a 6'4 250 Black guy that plays OL in football, yet I like a small round ****** wearing a mask that can attack a mach speeds.

What does that tell you?

That you're also Latin?

EDIT: Maybe it's cuz all the ladies want a ride on your Halberd

 

[Emblem Lord]

So Kaizo being the ***gort that he is, has earned himself a place on my faithful ignore list.

Let's give him a round of applause people.

*claps for the ignorant troll

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

That you're also Latin?

EDIT: Maybe it's cuz all the ladies want a ride on your Halberd

Please read my Username again and put 2 and 2 together, and Meta lost his spanish accent from the Kirby Anime.....

Ok, can we PLEASE not get on disscussion about that, I get teased enough at school about that, when your school is mostly white they don't know how to act when they see it, it's actually somewhat of a curse. You don't know how many "Five Dollar Footlong" Jokes I've gotten in the past week, and it scares chicks away, not attract -_-.

 

[Blistering Speed]

From the start everyone knew MK was brilliant, one of the if not the best. Im not going to preach about maining high tiered people, Look at my mains. It just so happens that I find better people more fun to play as in Brawl. In Melee it was the reverse (again see sig). Im not saying there weren't other factors but don't deny him being br0k3n had nothing to do with it.

Woah, me and Kaizo are fast becoming argument rivals XD

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Like Marth would be king of anything. More like queen of the girls' slumber party if you ask me. Marth is like Zelda's gay friend that Zelda always cries to because Link never pays any attention to her.

I'm writing a fanfiction where Marth is exactly that. Zelda ends up leaving Link for Samus though. I'm such a fangirl. I love myself.

Mr. 3000 wins multiple tourneys maining sonic. does that kill your point enuff?
also melee tourneys were even worse, b/c you knew for a fact that it was play Marth, Sheik, Fox, or Falco, or wait for your inevitable defeat. in melee the top 4 chars won tourneys in this game its basically who ever is the best player with the best char. with the best secondary to complement that main, wins (emphasis on the best player part

Show me video footage of Mr. 3000. I'm curious.

 

[Kaizo]

Please read my Username again and put 2 and 2 together, and Meta lost his spanish accent from the Kirby Anime.....

I know man, I was just joking....except maybe about the Halberd part, who knows.

Also, he sounds like Zoro, which is funny......I've never seen the Kirby anime, apparently I need to go check it out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL!!! I'm pretty sure Link is seen as homosexual by the gaming community since he flat out ignores Zelda in every game.