Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[St. Viers]

^that statement reeks of lack of knowledge (not C-T)

as seeing as I can play falco, and haven't got the IC chain-grab down...and I've seen more IC than falco vids....

 

[DanGR]

I'm knowledgeable in melee, but this is brawl. Don't talk about melee in the brawl section. It's irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, it's a totally new game. imo, it's easier to land grabs in brawl anyways. There isn't as many AT's in brawl that help against the grab and shieldgrabbing is easier to do. It's also easier to punish in brawl.

 

[Pure-???]

Of course, Tiers discussion really does just come down to discussion. There's not going to be a tier list for god knows how long, and even then it's going to change every so often.

All things being said, I'm still expecting faster medium weight characters to top the tier list, much like Melee.

 

[SnatchForFree]

I'm knowledgeable in melee, but this is brawl. Don't talk about melee in the brawl section. It's irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, it's a totally new game. imo, it's easier to land grabs in brawl anyways. There isn't as many AT's in brawl that help against the grab and shieldgrabbing is easier to do. It's also easier to punish in brawl.

It's not the first week of brawl any more. In the brawl physics engine it's way easier to space aerials and easily avoid being grabbed. Not to mention the ICs have one of the worst grab ranges in the game and a short grab duration.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I'm knowledgeable in melee, but this is brawl. Don't talk about melee in the brawl section. It's irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, it's a totally new game. imo, it's easier to land grabs in brawl anyways. There isn't as many AT's in brawl that help against the grab and shieldgrabbing is easier to do. It's also easier to punish in brawl.

Brawl seems to be more about spacing and being careful. Try to use attacks that let you stay out of grab range even if you hit a shield, etc...

 

[metalmonstar]

I believe the SFR may be able to have a first draft tier list by about mid june.

I am suprised how much debate Ice climbers, pokemon trainer, and jigglypuff have gotten on this thread.

 

[Kaizo]

I was gonna disregard that post until I read that last sentence. All I have to say is that you must be ****ing kidding me. Have you ever tried pulling off an alt.throw? It's about a good thousand times harder than Falco's CG or any of it's variants.

Alt throw is, like, the only ICs chaingrab I know offhand....haha....I love doing it, too, it freaks some people the **** out

But yea, ICs have some of the tougher chaingrabs as far as execution, although they can do some of them longer for more damage. But yea, Falco's chaingrab is **** easy, Dedede's is slightly more difficult, but easy, and ICs alt throw is hard, but fun

 

[St. Viers]

lol at you saying ddd's is harder than falco >_< You must play against lighter chars (G&W, Lucas, the like---falco's is mure sure for the first few regrabs...but yeah

 

[fkacyan]

The only difficult CGs are the inifinite IC ones. The basic forward-motion CGs with IC, Falco, and Dedede are so easy to pick up that I find it hard to believe people can't do them.

 

[St. Viers]

^^agreed

10char

 

[Corner-Trap]

I'm knowledgeable in melee, but this is brawl. Don't talk about melee in the brawl section. It's irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, it's a totally new game. imo, it's easier to land grabs in brawl anyways. There isn't as many AT's in brawl that help against the grab and shieldgrabbing is easier to do. It's also easier to punish in brawl.

Yes most characters have an easier time landing a grab in Brawl but not the IC's, they actually had it better off in Melee. Seriously, just trust me when I say that it's a lot harder to grab with the IC's in Brawl than it was in Melee. The IC's have one of the shortest grab ranges in the game and they get pushed a bit far back after shielding an attack leaving them out of grab range. They can't perfect shield into a grab either because Nana lags six frames behind Popo, so as Popo perfect shields Nana will still get hit. They had these exact same weaknesses in Melee but they had WD'ing to compensate for it. Their WD was really long allowing them to punish OOS with a grab, which they simply cannot do in Brawl. Most of their grab setups come from desynchs, as in making one IC attack to hit the opponent or make them shield, then let the other IC dash in for a grab. Sadly most characters with a projectile or long range attack can disrupt a desynch and bypass the grab attempt.

It seems to me that the only thing you honestly know about the IC's is that they have infinites. You're way to ignorant of the IC's as a whole to make any valid decisions on whether or not their infinite should be banned. Every time you post it shows more and more that you simply don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you should have done your research before spouting off. Or you know.... actually play against good IC players.

 

[IrArby]

Since more than likely ATs aren't really gonna develop and thus metagames aren't gonna evolve drastically more I think the Tier list is gonna be a huge mess. No ones gonna be happy with it. There are still a few people who don't completely agree with the Melee tier list but for the most part people agree its at least somewhat accurate.

Brawl's Balance is derived mostly from the fact that no one can abuse advanced techs. Think of the chars at the top of Melee's current tier list. They all use ATs in a way that gives them distinct advatages. A fox who cant waveshine isn't very scary. A falco who can't SHL is just waiting to get grabbed and a Marth who can't SHDF or wavedash to Fsmash or do a dropped bair ...etc.

Unless Brawlers find some amazing new techniques, creating a Concrete Brawl Tier List won't really mean anything.

Also, maybe the tournament rules will change this time around but in the past most infinites were banned from competitive play. However, if matches like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqUmbuXZ7Jk

become the new legal tournament standard, the Future of Smash will be sad indeed.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

People will end up finding an insane AT with Lucario and he will end up being at least High Tier. That is my prediction.

The reason I say (type actually) this, is because the Lucario community is really hardcore. They are pretty big and really devoted (Milln makes a weekly Lucario show called "Inner Fire" the videos are on youtube).

Not only that, but since he is a rather deep character, and really versatile when it comes to playstyle there is bound to be some amazing discovery with him.

Discuss.

 

[Grunt]

People will end up finding an insane AT with Lucario and he will end up being at least High Tier. That is my prediction.

The reason I say (type actually) this, is because the Lucario community is really hardcore. They are pretty big and really devoted (Milln makes a weekly Lucario show called "Inner Fire" the videos are on youtube).

Not only that, but since he is a rather deep character, and really versatile when it comes to playstyle there is bound to be some amazing discovery with him.

Discuss.

I originally said this about diddy. too bad noone has figured out how to use him without nanners.

 

[Browny]

I think Lucarios reverse double team is possibly that AT, if theres more... :D

Lucarios weakness of being gimped off stage is almost completely removed when he can just teleport back to the stage. it doesnt lose his second jump, but he travels a distance comparable to marths fully charged neutral b, with no charge time and still has his mid-air jump to get back on, if he didnt already. Even been edgeguarded by up-smash spamming snake? try this out and see what happens.

Also works awesome as an approach vs projectile spammers. he can just jump right into lasers, bombs, gyros anything and just RDT right into the enemies face. if they dont get hit by the DT, it sets up perfectly for a shield grab which might as well come out on the first frame where he loses invincibility.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Since more than likely ATs aren't really gonna develop and thus metagames aren't gonna evolve drastically more I think the Tier list is gonna be a huge mess. No ones gonna be happy with it. There are still a few people who don't completely agree with the Melee tier list but for the most part people agree its at least somewhat accurate.

Brawl's Balance is derived mostly from the fact that no one can abuse advanced techs. Think of the chars at the top of Melee's current tier list. They all use ATs in a way that gives them distinct advatages. A fox who cant waveshine isn't very scary. A falco who can't SHL is just waiting to get grabbed and a Marth who can't SHDF or wavedash to Fsmash or do a dropped bair ...etc.

Unless Brawlers find some amazing new techniques, creating a Concrete Brawl Tier List won't really mean anything.

Also, maybe the tournament rules will change this time around but in the past most infinites were banned from competitive play. However, if matches like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqUmbuXZ7Jk

become the new legal tournament standard, the Future of Smash will be sad indeed.

are you stupid? you could tell that the moose guy was a scrub, and that he'd proly never played DDD b4 going up against arguably the best one in teh country.

a real DDD ditto would have been way different.

also you have to be ******** or sheltered to have the audacity to assume that a 100% perfected IC is better than metaknight or snake, and any one who says otherwise is just plain ignorant

 

[IrArby]

The vid was an after thought that I edited in simply cause it illustrates how GAY Brawl can be. Please explain to me how a better D3 could have escaped the CGs other than not getting caught in one at all?

also you have to be ******** or sheltered to have the audacity to assume that a 100% perfected IC is better than metaknight or snake, and any one who says otherwise is just plain ignorant

I can only assume your responding to whomever posted b4 me cuz I didn't say **** about Ice Climbers.

As to my argument about ATs you made absolutely no counter points therefore you failD
As to my argument about the Tier list you made absolutely no counter points. failD again
As to your sig . . . WTF thats ********. I'm ashamed to be on the same website as you. Until you can reply with intelligent discussion please refrain from posting, playing smash, or breathing.

So please stop *****ing about the video since you were pissed off about how true everything else in that post is.

 

[Kaizo]

An MK who can't stick his sword into other people's poopers and spin isn't very scary, either =/ Also, if Dedede can ICG another Dedede, then D6 dittos will probably look a lot like that, except partially more defensive until someone gets grabbed.

lol at you saying ddd's is harder than falco >_< You must play against lighter chars (G&W, Lucas, the like---falco's is mure sure for the first few regrabs...but yeah

Well, Dedede's is slightly more difficult because you need to dthrow dash shieldgrab. Falco's is just dthrow to walk over and grab again. I always have trouble with Dedede's unless I dash shieldgrab for some reason.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Well, Dedede's is slightly more difficult because you need to dthrow dash shieldgrab. Falco's is just dthrow to walk over and grab again. I always have trouble with Dedede's unless I dash shieldgrab for some reason.

True, but thats not for all characters

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

This topic extremely bothers me...

Any list that has ROB below the top 10 is clearly Fuxing w/ ********...

and though Falco is quite an outstanding character... MK, Snake, G&W are all CLEARLY>him.


This topic is just beyond hope at this point.. none of you look at tournament placings, and THAT is what the tier list is for.. it is the EVALUATE THE CURRENT METAGAME.

Which would be why DDD MUST BE HIGHER on anyone's tier list's...


You all need to "create" your tier lists thinking about who the top 25 players in the US would use..

and i'll tell you right now..

Azen- Lucario/Marth
Chillin- Snake/DDD/Fox
M2K- DDD/Marth
Forte-MetaKnight
HugS- ROB
Boss- Mario
Random WC'rs that win- Wario
DSF- Olimar?
Candy- Snake/Wolf
OverSwarm- ROB


You really can't go on how you feel, when the competition is obviously going in a different direction then you are.


No Johns.


Fix your lists.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

The vid was an after thought that I edited in simply cause it illustrates how GAY Brawl can be.

I know, right!? M2K never got his dollar. Moose is so freaking cheap.

Please explain to me how a better D3 could have escaped the CGs other than not getting caught in one at all?

1) Not getting caught at all. 2) If caught, DI in such a way they didn't predict. According to this thread, DDD can only infinite a couple of characters without a wall, and DDD is not one of them.

I'm not trying to say that DDD is easy to escape a chaingrab with. I'm just saying that matches won't be anywhere near as gay as that video.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

This topic extremely bothers me...

Any list that has ROB below the top 10 is clearly Fuxing w/ ********...

and though Falco is quite an outstanding character... MK, Snake, G&W are all CLEARLY>him.


This topic is just beyond hope at this point.. none of you look at tournament placings, and THAT is what the tier list is for.. it is the EVALUATE THE CURRENT METAGAME.

Which would be why DDD MUST BE HIGHER on anyone's tier list's...


You all need to "create" your tier lists thinking about who the top 25 players in the US would use..

and i'll tell you right now..

Azen- Lucario/Marth
Chillin- Snake/DDD/Fox
M2K- DDD/Marth
Forte-MetaKnight
HugS- ROB
Boss- Mario
Random WC'rs that win- Wario
DSF- Olimar?
Candy- Snake/Wolf
OverSwarm- ROB


You really can't go on how you feel, when the competition is obviously going in a different direction then you are.


No Johns.


Fix your lists.

Chillin uses Fox? That's news to me......


And since when was DSF an Olimar user? I clearly remember him as Snake/Marth from Capitol Brawl

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Not that often.. honestly i see him use Falco even more >_>;

 

[Theftz22]

My tier list.

Top
Snake
Metaknight

Very High
G and W
King Dedede
Marth
Falco
ROB

High
Olimar
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Wario
Pit
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Pikachu
Kirby
Fox

Middle
Donkey Kong
ZSS
Zelda
Luigi
Lucario
PT
Bowser
Shiek
Lucas
Ness
Mario

Low
Ike
Sonic
Samus
Yoshi
Peach
Link

Bottom
Jiggs
ganon
C. Falcon

 

[IrArby]

1) Not getting caught at all. 2) If caught, DI in such a way they didn't predict. According to this thread, DDD can only infinite a couple of characters without a wall, and DDD is not one of them..

Ok point taken but does anyone have any response to everything else I posted. As I stated earlier the video was an afterthought though I don't see how having two Pro DDDs would make that match less gay since they'd just be CGing each other. I mean come on a 3 min match of CGing.

I digress thats not what I'm here about. Brawl will have a truly ****ed up tier list since nobody can abuse ATs since there really aren't any or at least no outstanding ones. Thats my real point here. Go back to the other post for a slightly longer analysis if anyones interested.

And whoever said something about metaknight's sword in people's poopers is secretly gay but has trouble admitting to himself.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Few ATs=/=No/messed up Tier list. It's still clear what characters are better than others, does not matter. Also, you're not going to find DDD Dittos all that often, so even if that one match was....."gay" it doesn't fortell the entire future of Brawl. Technical Depth does not automatically create Tiers.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Some of y'all seem confused. Tier lists are supposed to measure how good a character is, not how good a player is. Tournaments are a measure of how good a player is, they are in no way the deciding factor of how a tier list should be ordered. Tournaments are merely used to back up points made in a tier list. You're suppose to evaluate a characters abilities and see how they relate to other characters through match-ups. Characters with mostly good match-ups end up in top tier. Characters with mostly good and even match-ups end up in high tier. Characters with mostly even match-ups end up in mid tier. Characters with mostly bad and even match-ups end up in low tier. Characters with mostly bad match-ups end up in bottom tier. This is why I keep pushing for a match-up based tier list because it's what nearly every other fighting game community goes by.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Smash is quite different from most fighting games.. that is why OUR tier lists are based on MetaGame... we don't really have set combos.. just spacing and DI. A tad different one would think.


and to comment on the CG'ing issue...


Ever watch two "pro" Shiek players [melee] ditto on FD in tourney...

exactly.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Yes Smash is different from other fighting games but they still do have match-ups, which allows for a match-up based tier list to be developed.

 

[Kaizo]

Some of y'all seem confused. Tier lists are supposed to measure how good a character is, not how good a player is. Tournaments are a measure of how good a player is, they are in no way the deciding factor of how a tier list should be ordered. Tournaments are merely used to back up points made in a tier list. You're suppose to evaluate a characters abilities and see how they relate to other characters through match-ups. Characters with mostly good match-ups end up in top tier. Characters with mostly good and even match-ups end up in high tier. Characters with mostly even match-ups end up in mid tier. Characters with mostly bad and even match-ups end up in low tier. Characters with mostly bad match-ups end up in bottom tier. This is why I keep pushing for a match-up based tier list because it's what nearly every other fighting game community goes by.

But regardless of how good or bad a character or other characters are, if the top players have success with a character, then clearly that character has some value, and if they consistently win tournaments with said characters, then they go up in the tier list. That's why the tier list changes so much......people are always learning new things, so why make a "theoretical" tier list, based on "theoretical" matchups, when you can make it on what's happening at the moment? I mean, that's like saying that Falcon is the best character in Melee (he is, just not play-wise ) because he has the best combo ability, can combo anyone, and is the fastest character. It's all theory until a player puts it into practice.

Now the only problem I see with tier list based on tourney results is the problem that that other guy ran into....used Kirby the whole time, and then used Snake against MK, and "won the tourney with Snake." But this is why tier lists aren't based entirely on tournaments, and this is why the SBR handles tiers and not just nubs like you.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

I sincerely hope you're not calling ME a nub...

 

[Corner-Trap]

I'm not talking about theoretical match-ups, I'm talking about match-ups proven through tournament play. For most other fighting game communities, a tier list and match-up chart are synonymous. Match-up based tier lists are for the most part more accurate compared to the various other ways tier lists are decided. And I know you're not calling anyone a nub, personally I hate that word it sounds so lame, so I'll just call you a scrub.

 

[Kaizo]

I'm not talking about theoretical match-ups, I'm talking about match-ups proven through tournament play. For most other fighting game communities, a tier list and match-up chart are synonymous. Match-up based tier lists are for the most part more accurate compared to the various other ways tier lists are decided. And I know you're not calling anyone a nub, personally I hate that word it sounds so lame, so I'll just call you a scrub.

Lol, I'm just calling everyone in general a nub....like I said, this should be left to the SBR.....or incidentally the SFR

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

SFR has nubs too, I've only been to 3 Smash tourneys total >_>.


I still know a lot about this game though.

 

[RedfishX]

RedfishX Tier List v1.5

I made some changes to my previous tier list, and I want to see what you guys think of it. I added some notes at the end.

REDFISHX TIER LIST

Last updated: 5/31/08 --- Version 1.5

---TOP TIER---

1) Snake
2) Meta Knight

---HIGH TIER---

3) Falco
4) Mr. Game and Watch
5) Toon Link
6) Marth
7) R.O.B.
8) King Dedede
9) Pikachu
10) Diddy Kong
11) Pit
12) Wolf

---UPPER MIDDLE TIER---

13) Ice Climbers
14) Olimar
15) Zelda
16) Wario
17) Pokémon Trainer - Rotation
18) Fox
19) Lucario
20) Squirtle
21) Zero Suit Samus

---LOWER MIDDLE TIER---

22) Kirby
23) Ike
24) Donkey Kong
25) Bowser
26) Luigi
27) Lucas
28) Ivysaur

---LOW TIER---

29) Sheik
30) Charizard
31) Samus
32) Ness
33) Mario
34) Sonic
35) Link

---BOTTOM TIER---

36) Peach
37) Jigglypuff
38) Yoshi
39) Ganondorf
40) Captain Falcon


NOTES:

Top Tier:

I am not changing anything here. I guarantee you, Snake is first, Meta is second.

High Tier:

I still believe in Falco as the number 3 spot, and G&W at fourth. D3 Rose up some spots from what I've seen, and I think he belongs there. Diddy I'm willing to move around, I wasn't quite sure about him. Other than that, I am a firm believer in what I have here.

Middle Tiers:

The Upper, in my opinion, looks perfectly fine. I think I fit Zelda in here nicely.

The lower, I'm still never very assured with what I have in the Ike-DK-Bowser-Luigi area. I think Ike can stay where he is, until the others find more things. Ike was good, and despite dropping quite a bit, he still is an okay character. Ivysaur will remain the last spot, despite it's easiness to be edgehogged. But hey, who else is screaming for counterpick stages such as Bridge of Eldin? Even Norfair/Brinstar brightens up his (or her, whatever the heck we decided on) day.

Low Tier:

Sheik might be the top spot there. She's still almost mediocre, despite being nerfed quite a bit. And I think she does have some potential, plus...despite not actually being considered a "competitive" move, she can always just transform to Zelda.

I really am almost pushing myself to move Samus up to Low-Middle. What do you think?

Bottom Tier:

If you have any problem with this...I really don't know what to say.

Pokemon Trainer - Rotation? What the? :

No matter what we do, someone is going to get mad. We make PT one character, "Squirtle", "Ivysaur", or "Charizard" mainers get mad. We make them 3, "Rotators" get mad. So I put both. Sue me. (Personally, I want to do them as just 3 seperate, but oh well.

Captain Falcon for God Tier:

Nah I'm just kidding.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

I come back to this thread because its funny to see people fighting on the top tier and high tier when we all pretty much know that part is set.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

I'm not willing to spend the $25 to gain access, and most of the SBR are a bunch of elitist dumb*sses... that don't really post, and leave the ACTUAL discussion to like 10 members... so when you say "leave the discussion to the back room" you're really saying.. "leave the discussion to the exclusive room that no one else can see but a bunch of rich elitist *******, that don't even talk about anything important"

The SBR is not a magical place where REAL discussion goes on... imo more spam goes on there then in the Pool Room...

at least some of us here *cough* Chozen/EmblemLord *cough* can have intellegent discussion w/out throwing out a tier list and NOT back it up....

 

[RedfishX]

I come back to this thread because its funny to see people fighting on the top tier and high tier when we all pretty much know that part is set.

Yeah, but metal monstar's joke tier lists are hilarious as well.

 

[Frown]

Watching old tier lists is fun.

its way too early to think of anything as i doubt no one has played every character except for those who have it, and i doubt theyv played everyone still. however, from my impressions of watching the tons of vids i do and from the play time iv had with it, im just gonna split characters into 3 groups awesome, good, not good lol:

Awesome:
Sonic
Diddy
Marth
Toon Link
Luigi
Mario

Good:
Pokemon Trainer
ROB
Bowser
Peach
Link
Zelda
Meta Knight
Pit
Falcon
Dedede

Not Good:
Snake
Ike
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Undecided:
Everyone I didn't name

What I think (list not in order):

Top
Pit
Marth
Falco

High
Fox
Wolf
ROB
Toon Link
Olimer
Peach
Diddy
Pikachu

Mid
Dedede
Ike
Mario
Luigi
Sonic
Kirby
Metaknight
Zelda
Lucas
PT

Low
Ness
Samus
Lucario
Falcon
Bowser
Link
Sheik
Wario
ZSS

Bottom
Yoshi
Jiggly
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
DK
Snake

Opinions from ~ 10 hours of play.
I've only listed the one's that I have played.

Top
Pit
Marth

High
Fox
Falco
ROB
Olimer
Peach
Diddy
Dedede
Metaknight

Mid/High
Ike
Mario
PT (IMO Ivysaur - high, Charizard - mid/high , Squirtle - mid/low)
Luigi
Lucas
Lucario
Samus

Mid
Snake
Link
Sheik
Wario
ZSS
Sonic
Kirby
Zelda
Falcon

Low
Ness
Bowser
DK

What little I know/played

Top Tier;
Olimar (near broken)
King Dedede
Lucas
Marth
Ike

Hight Tier:
Wolf
Falco
Snake
Sonic
Meta Knight
Pit
Ness

Mid Tier:
Everyone else

Crap Tier:
Ice Climbers

I dnd't play everyone, sorry.

my tier list (ive never played, but im pretty sure its accurate

in no specific order

god tier
sonic
snake

top tier

marth
fox
metaknight
diddy
pit

high tier

falco
wolf
dedede
ike
toon link
zelda
mario
luigi
peach

mid tier

zss
bowser
kirby
game and watch
rob (due to lack of usage)
samus
sheik
PT
falcon
pikachu

low tier

wario
lucas
ness
olimar
gannondorf
DK
jigglypuff
link
lucario

bottom tier

yoshi
ice climbers

 

[Sh1n0b1]

@ RedFishX

G&W is better than Falco for numerous reasons that have already been explained. There is no way in hell that Ike is better than DK, Bowser, Luigi, Lucas (questionable), Ivysaur, and Sheik. All those characters can own him. DK will simply murder him because his range is comparable to Ike's, and also DK has a speed advantage over him. God if I see another tier list with Ike being anywhere above Low Tier I will simply explode!