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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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Kaizo

Kaizo

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Nss, Ytam!!!!!!!!!! Your Pointy Hair Is No Match For My Coattails Of Doom!!
 
Kaizo

Kaizo

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Emblem Lord said:
LOL!!! I'm pretty sure Link is seen as homosexual by the gaming community since he flat out ignores Zelda in every game.
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He's actually pretty straight. The problem is that Nintendo constantly feeds him this censorship crap. If Sony created LoZ, Link would be getting some after every temple. And he'd be wearing a speedo.
 
Kaizo

Kaizo

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Nigerian Star Storm said:
*Gasp

I sacrifice my other two god cards to give Obelisk UNLIMITED ATTACK STRENGTH.

Now Open wide Kaiba and SUCK ON MY OBELISK.
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Even though there's absolutely no chance of me winning I'm going to go ahead and attack anyway!!!

oh man, good times. Dan Green for Brawl.
 
C

Corner-Trap

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Sethlon is more like the best Falco in Texas, or best Falco with videos of him online. There are many well known Falco players who don't have videos of them online.
 
Yuna-Maria

Yuna-Maria

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I think Mr. 3000 is a pretty cool guy. Eh says you're too slow and doesn't afraid of anything!
Well, guess you proved it to me. Now I can't hide behind the 'Samus sucks' excuse.
 
Blistering Speed

Blistering Speed

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Falco is getting some great attention, Bombsoldier has just released his first 2 vids (being in Japan it's obviously difficult) and Forward merely 3 days ago picked up Falco as his main again.
 
Kaizo

Kaizo

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Hey NSS....

These sunglasses make it difficult to see in this dark cave, but I refuse to take them off because I'm an American, and Americans ALWAYS wear sunglasses!
 
M

Monshou_no_Nazo

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I want to say that Zelda 1 is the same way, but Zelda 2 proves that Link didn't actually stay with Zelda 1's Zelda, and instead is in love with Zelda 2's Zelda.

Must be painful for Zelda to get turned down in favor of her own ancestor.
 
DanGR

DanGR

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jiovanni007 said:
SO you show me one great Diddy against an above average Snake which pretty much proves the point of tiers. 3rd tier on a 6 tier system would make him middle tier (on my system at least). I had him high in that section as well which puts him in the league of Capt. Falcon, Spamus, IC, and Jiggs of Melee. None of those 4 characters I just mentioned were bad and could even hold their own against the Marth, Peach, Sheik, Falco, and even the God-awful brokenness of Melee Fox. It was also a 1-stock which in my eyes is a marginal win. So even Diddy playing to his max (which was implied by how this was the first and assumed to be best) can get only a one stock against one of the best character. Pretty much proves to me even further that he's high mid tier.
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When you say this: "Diddy shouldn't even be in the third tier either.", it seemed to me like you're implying that you're in opposition of him being in the third tier, making him a fourth tier character, which is ridiculous. The video I showed shows a glimpse in what Diddy is like. Nanerz made many avoidable mistakes, but even more perfectly timed banana combos that are VERY hard to avoid. Likewise, he won the match with ease to one of "the most broken characters in the game." Diddy should be in the second tier if we're going by the standards.

To everyone else-

As for snake-Snake shouldn't even be the top character in the tiers if you ask me, but everyone's mindwashed into thinking so. He has several counters that people refuse to acknowledge b/c they think he's the best character. He wins tournaments largely b/c he's a MK COUNTER and the character that's most likely to make it to the finals in tourneys b/c of his REAL brokenness is MK. People use snake to win the final match against the broken MK and thus he's the tourney standings leader. Don't get me wrong, he's good, but not top.

IC- IMO, he should be banned or either placed on the top of the tiers. If the IC player isn't dumb and he has perfected the infinite cg, then he should win every match. It's just plain stupid to say that you can avoid getting grabbed the whole match, being the game that this is. The only reason they aren't winning tourneys is b/c too many people quit them b/c they're afraid the cg will get banned eventually. It's not banned right now, but it is in texas and it will be banned all across the U.S sooner or later. People will realize that they should have banned him in the beginning of this whole mess.
 
C

Corner-Trap

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DanGR said:
IC- IMO, he should be banned or either placed on the top of the tiers. If the IC player isn't dumb and he has perfected the infinite cg, then he should win every match. It's just plain stupid to say that you can avoid getting grabbed the whole match, being the game that this is. The only reason they aren't winning tourneys is b/c too many people quit them b/c they're afraid the cg will get banned eventually. It's not banned right now, but it is in texas and it will be banned all across the U.S sooner or later. People will realize that they should have banned him in the beginning of this whole mess.
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You are so incredibly ignorant of the IC's, you seriously don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Even if you factor in a player mastering the IC's infinites they're still only mid tier at best. In Melee the IC's had a much easier infinite and had a much easier time getting in grabs, yet those weren't banned and the IC's still weren't exactly dominating tournaments. So why ban the IC's infinite in Brawl when it's much harder to perform, and it's much harder for the IC's to land a grab in the first place. The main reason the IC's will never get past mid tier is because they have a mountain of disadvantageous match-ups, especially against the characters who are popular in tournaments. If you think it's impossible to avoid being grabbed against the IC's then you obviously don't have much experience fighting with or against them.

Yes the IC's infinite has been banned in Houston, Texas tournaments hosted by TGM and you won't believe the amount of hate he has received. Even well respected players such as Overswarm, M3D, LeeHarris, and Samurai Panda have given him a large amount of criticism for his seemingly moronic decision. I'm sick and tired of people being so incredibly ignorant of the IC's and Smash in general. People want to simply ban the IC's infinite or the IC's as a whole without even knowing much about them aside from the fact that they have an infinite. This idiocy seriously frustrates me.
 
Kaizo

Kaizo

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Corner-Trap said:
You are so incredibly ignorant of the IC's, you seriously don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Even if you factor in a player mastering the IC's infinites they're still only mid tier at best. In Melee the IC's had a much easier infinite and had a much easier time getting in grabs, yet those weren't banned and the IC's still weren't exactly dominating tournaments. So why ban the IC's infinite in Brawl when it's much harder to perform, and it's much harder for the IC's to land a grab in the first place. The main reason the IC's will never get past mid tier is because they have a mountain of disadvantageous match-ups, especially against the characters who are popular in tournaments. If you think it's impossible to avoid being grabbed against the IC's then you obviously don't have much experience fighting with or against them.

Yes the IC's infinite has been banned in Houston, Texas tournaments hosted by TGM and you won't believe the amount of hate he has received. Even well respected players such as Overswarm, M3D, LeeHarris, and Samurai Panda have given him a large amount of criticism for his seemingly moronic decision. I'm sick and tired of people being so incredibly ignorant of the IC's and Smash in general. People want to simply ban the IC's infinite or the IC's as a whole without even knowing much about them aside from the fact that they have an infinite. This idiocy seriously frustrates me.
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I wouldn't say it's so hard to chaingrab with ICs, I can do it with some semi-reliable success, not enough to secure a match against a pro, but decently enough. Also KDJ does it almost effortlessly, so all it takes is some intense practice.

Also, as a Bowser user, I know how hard it is to grab people sometimes, so the key is relying on your other strengths, and throwing in your grab when it's not as expected =]
 
Kaizo

Kaizo

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This thread is now about YAS.

"Finally, my plans to steal an object from a small child are now complete."
 
DanGR

DanGR

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Corner-Trap said:
You are so incredibly ignorant of the IC's, you seriously don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Even if you factor in a player mastering the IC's infinites they're still only mid tier at best. In Melee the IC's had a much easier infinite and had a much easier time getting in grabs, yet those weren't banned and the IC's still weren't exactly dominating tournaments. So why ban the IC's infinite in Brawl when it's much harder to perform, and it's much harder for the IC's to land a grab in the first place. The main reason the IC's will never get past mid tier is because they have a mountain of disadvantageous match-ups, especially against the characters who are popular in tournaments. If you think it's impossible to avoid being grabbed against the IC's then you obviously don't have much experience fighting with or against them.

Yes the IC's infinite has been banned in Houston, Texas tournaments hosted by TGM and you won't believe the amount of hate he has received. Even well respected players such as Overswarm, M3D, LeeHarris, and Samurai Panda have given him a large amount of criticism for his seemingly moronic decision. I'm sick and tired of people being so incredibly ignorant of the IC's and Smash in general. People want to simply ban the IC's infinite or the IC's as a whole without even knowing much about them aside from the fact that they have an infinite. This idiocy seriously frustrates me.
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Don't get in a a rut over this dude, I'm on your side. I understand your frustration, I feel sorry for y'all that it's gonna get banned eventually. I'm just about the only person in the forum that'll come out and say it though. I'm sure about a fourth of the forum feels the same way I do. This is brawl, not melee, where skill overwhelmed luck by a very large margin. It's harder to land grabs in melee than it is in brawl. It took be a couple days to master the infinite in brawl. It's quite easy. It's not hard to grab people either in this game-don't matter how "good" you are. It was banned b/c an IC player, that will stay unnamed, dominated every tourney he went to in Texas. TGM had no choice, but to ban it. I'm not defending him, I'm just giving the facts that everyone refuses to acknowledge.

For everyone else who disagrees with me, here's a scenario for you. Play against a friend as IC. If you grab them with nana in place for a chaingrab, then get your friend to jump off the stage. If you're smart about it, you'll win every time with ease.
 
Kaizo

Kaizo

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DanGR said:
Don't get in a a rut over this dude, I'm on your side. I understand your frustration, I feel sorry for y'all that it's gonna get banned eventually. I'm just about the only person in the forum that'll come out and say it though. I'm sure about a fourth of the forum feels the same way I do. This is brawl, not melee, where skill overwhelmed luck by a very large margin. It's harder to land grabs in melee than it is in brawl. It took be a couple days to master the infinite in brawl. It's quite easy. It's not hard to grab people either in this game-don't matter how "good" you are. It was banned b/c an IC player, that will stay unnamed, dominated every tourney he went to in Texas. TGM had no choice, but to ban it. I'm not defending him, I'm just giving the facts that everyone refuses to acknowledge.

For everyone else who disagrees with me, here's a scenario for you. Play against a friend as IC. If you grab them with nana in place for a chaingrab, then get your friend to jump off the stage. If you're smart about it, you'll win every time with ease.
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Welcome to the east coast. I mean ICs are nothing to sneeze at, and I know grabbing is easier and supported by the game engine, but they're easily countered, and it's a lot easier to avoid getting grabbed than you think. You just need to use your head. Obviously you're going to get grabbed at some point, but as long as you have the sense to separate the ICs (relatively easy to do), you'll protect yourself most of the time.

Also, won't Snake's nade counter protect him from getting thrown more than once by detonating after being thrown? I don't know this for sure, someone let me know. At the very least, it'd allow him to break out of the grab.

P.S. I heard it's easy to counterpick ICs with stages with unlevel/moving platforms. I'm not sure about the moving platforms thing, it sounds kind of stupid and irrelevant, but can an IC main explain counterpicking ICs to me?
 
C

Corner-Trap

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Kaizo said:
I wouldn't say it's so hard to chaingrab with ICs, I can do it with some semi-reliable success, not enough to secure a match against a pro, but decently enough. Also KDJ does it almost effortlessly, so all it takes is some intense practice.

Also, as a Bowser user, I know how hard it is to grab people sometimes, so the key is relying on your other strengths, and throwing in your grab when it's not as expected =]
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I can CG with relative ease, execution isn't exactly a barrier I need to overcome since I'm naturally skilled in that area. So far I only have the timing down against the currently popular characters, so whenever someone uses a more obscure character I can't CG effectively because of the new timing. Doing the CG isn't really the hard part, it's getting a grab in the first place thats hard especially against a player who even has a remote sense of what spacing is. Several characters like Falco and Pit can completely shut down the IC's approach not allowing them to move in for a grab. Characters with long range, aerial mobility, or lagless attacks can easily stay out of the IC's grab range such as Marth and MK. Only people who don't play the IC's view them as some sort of god tier type of character which they are not. It confuses me how we can accept the IC's infinite in Melee but then ban the one they have in Brawl even though it's a whole lot harder to perform and the IC's have trouble landing grabs in the first place.
 
DanGR

DanGR

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I'd rather not go into the whole IC chaingrab discussion. If it makes you feel better, you can say it's b/c I'm a lost cause. I'd much rather talk about snake and why he isn't as good as it seems, but that's probably for the matchup thread anyways...
 
C

Corner-Trap

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DanGR said:
Don't get in a a rut over this dude, I'm on your side. I understand your frustration, I feel sorry for y'all that it's gonna get banned eventually. I'm just about the only person in the forum that'll come out and say it though. I'm sure about a fourth of the forum feels the same way I do. This is brawl, not melee, where skill overwhelmed luck by a very large margin. It's harder to land grabs in melee than it is in brawl. It took be a couple days to master the infinite in brawl. It's quite easy. It's not hard to grab people either in this game-don't matter how "good" you are. It was banned b/c an IC player, that will stay unnamed, dominated every tourney he went to in Texas. TGM had no choice, but to ban it. I'm not defending him, I'm just giving the facts that everyone refuses to acknowledge.

For everyone else who disagrees with me, here's a scenario for you. Play against a friend as IC. If you grab them with nana in place for a chaingrab, then get your friend to jump off the stage. If you're smart about it, you'll win every time with ease.
Click to expand...
You seriously don't know what you're talking about, you don't even know what really happened at that incident. The IC player you're referring to is Hylian and although he does win the majority of tournaments hosted in Houston, he doesn't exactly win them with the IC's. You can ask him yourself, on average he'll use them like 3-5 times in a single tournament. The reason being is that they have so many bad match-ups and he only uses them as a counter-pick in the few matches they have an advantage in. You're seriously showing how ignorant you are of the IC's if you think they have an easier time grabbing in Brawl then they did in Melee. It's been unanimously agreed upon amongst IC players that it's actually harder to land grabs in Brawl, specifically for the IC's. The majority of characters may have an easier time getting grabs, but the IC's have experienced a reverse effect. As I said before TGM has received so much hate for his decision that his name has literally been dragged through the mud. Much more well respected TO's are against banning the IC's infinite such as M3D who was the tournament director for the Smash devision of MLG for two years. Seriously, stop talking out your *** when you don't even know what really went down.

EDIT:

St. Viers said:
because there are more scrubs playing brawl ^__^
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I'm starting to believe thats whats really the problem. Brawl has brought an onslaught of new players who don't have the slightest clue of Smash's history and a stuck in the scrub mentality where you ban everything you deem broken without even having proper knowledge of the situation. OMG teh IC's can 0-De@th any1 off of @ single grab!!11!!!!1!! Well they forget to mention the fact that the IC's could do that in Melee, and that their new infinite is much harder, and the IC's are worse as a character overall.
 
Kaizo

Kaizo

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DanGR said:
I'd rather not go into the whole IC chaingrab discussion. If it makes you feel better, you can say it's b/c I'm a lost cause. I'd much rather talk about snake and why he isn't as good as it seems, but that's probably for the matchup thread anyways...
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Snake is very good, it's not just MK-counter hype. He is fairly linear, but he also has a lot of options to work with. He's not even strictly a camp-y type character, he has a very quick approach (mortar slide). Ironically the one character that the mortar slide doesn't work as well on....is Meta Knight.......I'm sure there are others, but I have a fairly easy time punishing a good mortar slide.
 
Yuna-Maria

Yuna-Maria

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Kaizo said:
Snake is very good, it's not just MK-counter hype. He is fairly linear, but he also has a lot of options to work with. He's not even strictly a camp-y type character, he has a very quick approach (mortar slide). Ironically the one character that the mortar slide doesn't work as well on....is Meta Knight.......I'm sure there are others, but I have a fairly easy time punishing a good mortar slide.
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I've actually been able to predict and punish the mortar slide with Samus's f-tilt more often than not. I'm not saying that makes the mortar slide an ineffective tactic against Samus, but just throwing that out there. All kinds of fighters can do it; the mortar slide isn't an end-all-be-all tactic.
 
M

Monshou_no_Nazo

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Brawl started out as a huge grab fest, but as I watch videos of players that are getting consistently better at the game, I see less grabs land. Yeah, grabs are still common, but they seem to rely more on mistakes now than when Brawl first came out. I'm sure it'll depend on if Ice Climbers can exploit mistakes consistently.
 
Kaizo

Kaizo

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Lobelia Mk. IV said:
I've actually been able to predict and punish the mortar slide with Samus's f-tilt more often than not. I'm not saying that makes the mortar slide an ineffective tactic against Samus, but just throwing that out there. All kinds of fighters can do it; the mortar slide isn't an end-all-be-all tactic.
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It's not always so easy, especially if a player relies a bit more on his tilts and projectiles, and then out of the blue mortar slides. That's the problem with characters like MK and Snake....their attacks aren't godly, but the fact that they're so versatile ties all their strengths together.
 
N

Nigerian Star Storm

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Corner-Trap said:
You seriously don't know what you're talking about, you don't even know what really happened at that incident. The IC player you're referring to is Hylian and although he does win the majority of tournaments hosted in Houston, he doesn't exactly win them with the IC's. You can ask him yourself, on average he'll use them like 3-5 times in a single tournament. The reason being is that they have so many bad match-ups and he only uses them as a counter-pick in the few matches they have an advantage in. You're seriously showing how ignorant you are of the IC's if you think they have an easier time grabbing in Brawl then they did in Melee. It's been unanimously agreed upon amongst IC players that it's actually harder to land grabs in Brawl, specifically for the IC's. The majority of characters may have an easier time getting grabs, but the IC's have experienced a reverse effect. As I said before TGM has received so much hate for his decision that his name has literally been dragged through the mud. Much more well respected TO's are against banning the IC's infinite such as M3D who was the tournament director for the Smash devision of MLG for two years. Seriously, stop talking out your *** when you don't even know what really went down.

EDIT:



I'm starting to believe thats whats really the problem. Brawl has brought an onslaught of new players who don't have the slightest clue of Smash's history and a stuck in the scrub mentality where you ban everything you deem broken without even having proper knowledge of the situation. OMG teh IC's can 0-De@th any1 off of @ single grab!!11!!!!1!! Well they forget to mention the fact that the IC's could do that in Melee, and that their new infinite is much harder, and the IC's are worse as a character overall.
Click to expand...

Darn scrubs ruinin ma competitve Brawl

*grumbles*
 
Browny

Browny

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Ice climbers chain grabs cant be defended as if they take any large amount skill :/ i mean desynching takes half a second and doing the d-throw -fiar chain to a charged upsmash is simple, all you have to do is watch one video of it you should be able to replicate it no trouble. IMO falcos chain grab is harder ot pull off consistently than the IC's
 
C

Corner-Trap

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djbrowny said:
Ice climbers chain grabs cant be defended as if they take any large amount skill :/ i mean desynching takes half a second and doing the d-throw -fiar chain to a charged upsmash is simple, all you have to do is watch one video of it you should be able to replicate it no trouble. IMO falcos chain grab is harder ot pull off consistently than the IC's
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I was gonna disregard that post until I read that last sentence. All I have to say is that you must be ****ing kidding me. Have you ever tried pulling off an alt.throw? It's about a good thousand times harder than Falco's CG or any of it's variants.
 
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