Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Matchups. Those are key when you start entering the High and Top Tiers. Against all the others High/Top Tiers at least according to my list, I would say where he has advantages and disadvantages.

Top Tier:
Snake-Neutral, maybe advantage
Meta Knight-Disadvantage
Marth-Even
Mr. Game and Watch-Disadvantage
Falco-Disadvantage
R.O.B.-Even, maybe advantage

High Tier:
Toon Link-Disadvantage
Wolf-Advantage
Olimar-Disadvanatge
King Dedede-Even, lol
Pikachu-Disadvantage
Ice Climbers-Advanatage
Zelda-Disadvantage
Pit-Even
Diddy Kong-Disadvantage.

So that's 8 disadvantages compared to two advantages with two maybes and 2 evens. That's not a good enough record for a Top Tier character, even though the rest of his resume fits it so far


And to Viers, Pika's projectiles neutralize Snake's Mine, decreasing the effectiveness of his camping game. Juggling like you've already stated, as Snake is quite the juggle bait. And Jolts kinda force Snake to the air, where Pika could beat him out.

 

[Browny]

snakes like to recover by flying very high over the stage and dropping C$ below to prevent anyone from chasing them. DSF does this all the time. trying that vs pikachu ends up in death. is he tries to approach from below the stage, thunder and dsmash both hit below since he fails to sweetspot the edge. snake has serious problems getting back on the stage. couple this with pikachus fthrow chaingrab on snake to push him off the edge in a 0% combo, its nasty

 

[St. Viers]

ah, so his jab doesn't cancel pika's b...nice to know

 

[gorgon.]

We should definitely get one thing straight: Snake is top tier. The top of top tier. This is not a biased report (I main Olimar,) this is a fact. Snake has way too many projectiles, two mines, crazy range, ridiculous killing power, a high reaching, C4able recovery, and on top of this I just found out he is among the top 5 heaviest in the game. He is quick, badass, and has a box. No one is as broken as he is.

Meta is hyped. As he should be. He is top/high tier, but he is not the best. He is light, and lacks KO power (however, considering he racks up damage like a *****, this shouldn't be a big problem.) He also lacks a projectile.

Why do people keep putting Marth top tier? This is not Melee. Marth is good; fast, good range, maybe high tier. But he lacks in comparison to many new characters. He also lacks a projectile.

Olimar is good. Don't get me started, I could write a page about how good he is. I am pleased to see many people putting Olimar high tier, where he belongs. But I see some people putting him mid/low. I ask you, why? Good range, priority, power, excellent damage racking tool, best grab in the game. But he is not the best: light with bad recovery. High tier/ high in the high tier.

Mind that this small list is in no order. It is just to group who I believe belongs in these tiers.

Broken Tier:
-Snake

Top Tier:
-Metaknight
-ROB

High Tier:
-Olimar
-Toon Link
-G&W
-Diddy Kong
-(maybe) Marth

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

We should definitely get one thing straight: Snake is top tier. The top of top tier. This is not a biased report (I main Olimar,) this is a fact. Snake has way too many projectiles, two mines, crazy range, ridiculous killing power, a high reaching, C4able recovery, and on top of this I just found out he is among the top 5 heaviest in the game. He is quick, badass, and has a box. No one is as broken as he is.

Meta is hyped. As he should be. He is top/high tier, but he is not the best. He is light, and lacks KO power (however, considering he racks up damage like a *****, this shouldn't be a big problem.) He also lacks a projectile.

Why do people keep putting Marth top tier? This is not Melee. Marth is good; fast, good range, maybe high tier. But he lacks in comparison to many new characters. He also lacks a projectile.

Olimar is good. Don't get me started, I could write a page about how good he is. I am pleased to see many people putting Olimar high tier, where he belongs. But I see some people putting him mid/low. I ask you, why? Good range, priority, power, excellent damage racking tool, best grab in the game. But he is not the best: light with bad recovery. High tier/ high in the high tier.

Mind that this small list is in no order. It is just to group who I believe belongs in these tiers.

Broken Tier:
-Snake

Top Tier:
-Metaknight
-ROB

High Tier:
-Olimar
-Toon Link
-G&W
-Diddy Kong
-(maybe) Marth

*Facepalm*.....

 

[BDawgPHD]

We should definitely get one thing straight: Snake is top tier. The top of top tier. This is not a biased report (I main Olimar,) this is a fact. Snake has way too many projectiles, two mines, crazy range, ridiculous killing power, a high reaching, C4able recovery, and on top of this I just found out he is among the top 5 heaviest in the game. He is quick, badass, and has a box. No one is as broken as he is.

Meta is hyped. As he should be. He is top/high tier, but he is not the best. He is light, and lacks KO power (however, considering he racks up damage like a *****, this shouldn't be a big problem.) He also lacks a projectile.

Why do people keep putting Marth top tier? This is not Melee. Marth is good; fast, good range, maybe high tier. But he lacks in comparison to many new characters. He also lacks a projectile.

Olimar is good. Don't get me started, I could write a page about how good he is. I am pleased to see many people putting Olimar high tier, where he belongs. But I see some people putting him mid/low. I ask you, why? Good range, priority, power, excellent damage racking tool, best grab in the game. But he is not the best: light with bad recovery. High tier/ high in the high tier.

Mind that this small list is in no order. It is just to group who I believe belongs in these tiers.

Broken Tier:
-Snake

Top Tier:
-Metaknight
-ROB

High Tier:
-Olimar
-Toon Link
-G&W
-Diddy Kong
-(maybe) Marth

You need to play a REALLY good MK sometime. Not like "zomg i play MK guys i is so good LOL" but like, Jinx, or me

....or that guy that made the epic montage, he was too sexy

....but yea, it takes a really smart player to use MK against *good* people, but he does play very very well.

Still, I can't argue with the top three players in the last tourney being Snake, granted I went toe to toe with one of them As I said before, Snake is not a hard MK counter by any means, but he's still probably the top.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

We should definitely get one thing straight: Snake is top tier. The top of top tier. This is not a biased report (I main Olimar,) this is a fact. Snake has way too many projectiles, two mines, crazy range, ridiculous killing power, a high reaching, C4able recovery, and on top of this I just found out he is among the top 5 heaviest in the game. He is quick, badass, and has a box. No one is as broken as he is.

Meta is hyped. As he should be. He is top/high tier, but he is not the best. He is light, and lacks KO power (however, considering he racks up damage like a *****, this shouldn't be a big problem.) He also lacks a projectile.

Why do people keep putting Marth top tier? This is not Melee. Marth is good; fast, good range, maybe high tier. But he lacks in comparison to many new characters. He also lacks a projectile.

Olimar is good. Don't get me started, I could write a page about how good he is. I am pleased to see many people putting Olimar high tier, where he belongs. But I see some people putting him mid/low. I ask you, why? Good range, priority, power, excellent damage racking tool, best grab in the game. But he is not the best: light with bad recovery. High tier/ high in the high tier.
Mind that this small list is in no order. It is just to group who I believe belongs in these tiers.

Broken Tier:
-Snake

Top Tier:
-Metaknight
-ROB

High Tier:
-Olimar
-Toon Link
-G&W
-Diddy Kong
-(maybe) Marth

Responding to both bolded points, and yes, I agree that at this point in time, Snake should be at the Top of ANY Tier list, Mock or Real. Almost nothing can dispute this.

The thing that balances Meta's lack of a projectils is the fact he's impossible to camp and has some of the best approaching skills in the game. Tornado already cancels out a lot of crap and he's always gonna get the first hit since his attacks come out at a retardedly fast pace when he eventually gets in close. If anyone else is a Top Tier lock at this point aside from Snake, It's MK for sure. He's got everything in his favor as well, and possibly even better matchups than Snake himself

As for Marth, so what if it isn't Melee? Marth not only retained mostly everything that made him good in Melee, but add too it, he got buffs in some areas, has great matchups with the rest of the cast, and looking at tourney results, there's not that much of a difference in his performance if you take into account Snake and MK's dominance.

I think you may be underestimating the problem of Olimar's recovery. It's what keeps him out of Top IMO. So many characters percieved to be at the top can edgeguard very well, and if he gets pushed out far enough, or even just a well timed edgehog, he's finished. Considering how light that is, that is just too big of a flaw here.


Edit: Bdawg I think you mean Tru-, but I would have to say Forte is one of the best MKs in the country/

 

[Tien2500]

Metaknight's KO options aren't that bad. Its a case of quality over quality. His fair is good to WOP people off of the stage. Up B is incredibly quick as is Dsmash. Between the three KOing shouldn't be that much of a problem. You also have glide attack which can be effective if you're a bit crafty with it.

 

[hizzlum]

Metaknight's KO options aren't that bad. Its a case of quality over quality. His fair is good to WOP people off of the stage. Up B is incredibly quick as is Dsmash. Between the three KOing shouldn't be that much of a problem. You also have glide attack which can be effective if you're a bit crafty with it.

MK D-AIR=ONE OF THE BEST EDGEGUARDING MOVES IN BRAWL
Its spamable, a semi spike, good range, and when used off the edge a 100% you typically get the kill, if not a pivot edgehog will when to recover.
MK rivals marth for best aerials in the game(sheik is no more beacuse s/he has been terribly nerfed) also Mk is just as good an edgeguarder as marth is if not better, and marth was the best on the edge in melee and is still on of the best in brawl and getting easy edge kills

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uhh, yeah Marth is great and all, but let's not let fanboyism blind us.

MK is the best edgeguarder in the game and probably the best edgeguarder out of all the SSB games.

And overall MK has a better aerial game then Marth's. All of MK's aerials see use regularly, while only 2 or 3 of Marth's aerials will see alot of use namely Fair, Bair and Uair. Nair sees less use then those and Dair sees the least amount of use.

 

[Tien2500]

Yes I forgot about D-air. N-air can also kill but is more useful against lighter characters or at very high percentages.

 

[superglucose]

MK D-AIR=ONE OF THE BEST EDGEGUARDING MOVES IN BRAWL
Its spamable, a semi spike, good range, and when used off the edge a 100% you typically get the kill, if not a pivot edgehog will when to recover.
MK rivals marth for best aerials in the game(sheik is no more beacuse s/he has been terribly nerfed) also Mk is just as good an edgeguarder as marth is if not better, and marth was the best on the edge in melee and is still on of the best in brawl and getting easy edge kills

Woooah! Imo Marth's arials aren't as good as Pit's, Wolf's, or Zelda's. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but the difference between character's arials at the top isn't that large.

 

[hizzlum]

Uhh, yeah Marth is great and all, but let's not let fanboyism blind us.

Marth was considered by most pros, along with sheik, to be the best edgeguarder in the game, and that passes onto brawl, but MK is unquestionably a great edgeguarder. I'm just saying that marth is proabably second to MK in edge game and with the profusion of the use of shield breaker , marthhas a new move that can outrange almost anything in the air or ground.
MK is second to none, but remember that not many have done marth justice in brawl yet(until ken, who is maining marth again, or M2k or azen start playing marth in a big tournament); no one has shown marth's true potencial in brawl, most people are playing with him as if it were melee. MK stands as an amazing edgeguarderand proabably the best character in the game along with snake, but you have to recognize marth's aerials in melee were the best rivaling sheik and that doesent change drastically in brawl.

 

[Cliche-Guevara]

Woooah! Imo Marth's arials aren't as good as Pit's, Wolf's, or Zelda's. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but the difference between character's arials at the top isn't that large.

All of Marth's aerials are fast ranged attacks w/ disjointed hitboxes, making for quick, fairly unpunishable attacks. Pit / wolf doesn't have the range or killpower that Marth's attacks have and Zelda's moves are all good IF you sweetspot with them.


Aside from Marth's, there aren't too many aerials that are that well rounded on every air attack a char has out there.

 

[Tien2500]

Woooah! Imo Marth's arials aren't as good as Pit's, Wolf's, or Zelda's. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but the difference between character's arials at the top isn't that large.

Zelda... really? Zelda's aerial game is pretty bad. Nair is mediocre. Fair and Bair are hard to sweetspot with and unreliable. Dair is hard to sweetspot with as well. Uair is powerful but telegraphed. None of her aerials are really good as approaches.

 

[Corigames]

Wait, what aerial does Pit have over Marth? In my experience, a Marth has enough priority, speed, and range to completely out-aerial a Pit, giving me further reason to camp and spam arrows.

 

[Met]

Marth was considered by most pros, along with sheik, to be the best edgeguarder in the game, and that passes onto brawl, but MK is unquestionably a great edgeguarder. I'm just saying that marth is proabably second to MK in edge game and with the profusion of the use of shield breaker , marthhas a new move that can outrange almost anything in the air or ground.
MK is second to none, but remember that not many have done marth justice in brawl yet(until ken, who is maining marth again, or M2k or azen start playing marth in a big tournament); no one has shown marth's true potencial in brawl, most people are playing with him as if it were melee. MK stands as an amazing edgeguarderand proabably the best character in the game along with snake, but you have to recognize marth's aerials in melee were the best rivaling sheik and that doesent change drastically in brawl.

Brawl is alot different then melee buddy. And marth is good all around, but he isn't second best at edgeguarding characters with multiple jumps all seem to be better or good with the exception of jiggles. but kirby can spike very well even multiple times if need be. Dedede's back air is nasty especially at low percents. Rob can Fair you like a million times of the edge also nasty at lower percents.

marth isn't top tier anymore. He is in the high.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is probably top tier. Number one in high tier at worst.

Also, MK, Pit, R.O.B and Dedede beat Marth out in edgeguarding. Maybe Kirby but he lacks range so he might get hit when he tries to edgeguard others.

Anyway, out of the characters that don't have multiple jumps, Marth is the best edgeguarder.

hizzlum: You need to calm down with the fanboyism. Relax man, Marth is good. Anyone who says otherwise is not playing the same game.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Marth is probably top tier. Number one in high tier at worst.

Also, MK, Pit, R.O.B and Dedede beat Marth out in edgeguarding. Maybe Kirby but he lacks range so he might get hit when he tries to edgeguard others.

Anyway, out of the characters that don't have multiple jumps, Marth is the best edgeguarder.

hizzlum: You need to calm down with the fanboyism. Relax man, Marth is good. Anyone who says otherwise is not playing the same game.

But he's still totally a Sailor Scout.


Nah, but seriously folks, I thought Fairy Princess Marth was like....LOCKED for top tier like Snake and Meta Knight. What gives?

 

[Sikarios]

I wouldn't necessarily lock Marth for top tier. I feel top tierers need to have a great projectile or a super spammable moves (like MK's whorenado) but that's just me. But I haven't played enough good Brawl Marth's yet to make a fair assesment.

 

[St. Viers]

^^nice disclaimer.

 

[CervPurp63]

I don't think that Marth has a chance into becoming a TOP tier until people relearn how to space his sword again for tippers. The tippers in this game can completely swing a match. So once people perfect the new range of Marth's butter knife--I mean sword--then he has a chance of being in the TOP tier again. As of right now, I would only see him as a high tier because of how easily he can manuver around camping and the tipper game...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Reasons why people think Marth isn't top tier.

1) He was pretty much the king of melee. So to go from number 1 to lower changes people's perception of him.

2) His range is reduced and ALOT of people say that was his biggest advantage, so when they see that range nerf they scoff at him.

3) Snake and MK are far more broken then him.

4) His grabs were nerfed and again, that was one of the things people feared about him. Now that they are gone, people underestimate him.

5) Newer characters have more mystery and appeal, while Marth's moves LOOK the same, so people aren't impressed.

6) People THINK, that lacking a projectile is a big deal. (It's not.)

7) Most Marth's are scrubby and don't use him correctly, which leads others to believe that he isn't good.

8) No one really good plays him, except maybe Phanna. Since no pros use him, people think, "well then he must not be that great." When in reality they would rather use Snake or MK since it's an easier win.

 

[Corigames]

Was that an insult at Phanna... if so... that was low.

 

[Emblem Lord]

More like I'm not sure if he is maining Marth or not, but I know he has won a tourney with him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Regardless I thinkits safe to say that Marth is still a very good character despite the nerfs he has gone through.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I agree that Marth is top tier despite 2 or 3 nerfs and a bunch of buffs.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Even if you ignore the buffs you can clearly see he is top tier. Simly because he just fulfills the following so well.


1. Combo ability
2. KO ability
3. Capable of approaching
4. Capability in pressuring
5. Has a seductive *** (snake specific)

All of them (including 5) are a general idea.
Mainly since Bowser can't combo well, or approach or pressure but can Ko.
Why Sonic can't KO well but can approach, pressure and combo (though his lack of priority hurts him overall)
If Sonic had priority I think he would be high tier. Mainly since the character I fnid I can play similarly with is MK. Who while lacking kills has the ability to overwhelm his opponent with his priority.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W deserves top then :]
He's *** is quite seductive.

 

[St. Viers]

as is koopas...

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Mr. Escalator: I've been trying and trying but I just can't locate GW's ***. Please help.

Anywho...
For top tier it seems to be Snake, MK, G-Dub, and Marth all for sure. I think ROB and Falco also deserve top tier but no one seems to be as sure. What does everyone else think?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

That seems pretty accurate....

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I feel that I'm short changing ness putting him in low tier.... but I don't know where I should move him... any ideas? any othewr suggestions?
Top:
Snake
Meta Knight

Very High:
Game & Watch
Marth
Falco
Zelda
Toon Link
Olimar

High:
ROB
Wario
Pikachu
Pit
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Wolf
Lucas

Middle:
Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Pokemon Trainer
Squirtle
Donkey Kong
Charizard
Sheik
Mario
Fox

Low:
Ness
Peach
Kirby
Ike
Sonic
Bowser
Samus
Ivysaur

Bottom:
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Captain Falcon

 

[Ratherion]

I'm pretty **** sure if it wasn't for the chaingrabbing factor Ness and Lucas would be high-mid.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Hell they were considered High before that came out....

 

[Kilut]

Rob should be moved up a tad, he is definitely middle of "very high".

 

[Grunt]

who's going to be the character some noob starts a big controversy about this week?

anyone want to place bets?

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Hedgedawg's List:
Yes, ROB's a bit low. Olimar also seems too high, perhaps switch those two around?
Diddy and Lucario seem more of a high mid duo to me. And I remember you mentioning earlier that Dedede should be mid, why is that?
Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, and Mario are all too high. And Fox is too low.
Kirby is far too low, he should be where Lucas is now.
You should get rid of the individual Pokemon, as they just end up screwing up the scale for mid tier.
Sonic should be upper low, Bowser belongs in mid tier.
Yoshi should also be upper low.

@ Grunt: I can see a Sheik or Peach rant coming on soon.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

who's going to be the character some noob starts a big controversy about this week?

anyone want to place bets?

Well we've already done Ike, and Sonic several times.


MARIO. Bank on it

 

[SaxDude93]

Well we've already done Ike, and Sonic several times.


MARIO. Bank on it

And Ivysaur. I predict DDD or Wolf.