Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
TIS TOO QUIIETT IN HURRZZ
We need more disscussion. I want to debate
.
We need more disscussion. I want to debate
.
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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Is this any better Kiwikomix?
I moved DDD down because, simply, he's very easily countered. True, he has a decent chaingrab against about half the cast, but big, slow characters like DDD have a lot of ratehr one sided matchups against them. I don't think DDD is on better than even footing with any of the highest tiered characters and is bad against a good many of them. Once again, the only "good" charcter I play is Zelda, and I know that DDD is one of her favourite matchups because she has complete dominance there.... frankly, I don't think he does well against the majority of the cast. I think he's overrated by anyone placing him above mid-high but is underrated if below mid-low... so he's mid tier to me.
I moved DDD down because, simply, he's very easily countered. True, he has a decent chaingrab against about half the cast, but big, slow characters like DDD have a lot of ratehr one sided matchups against them. I don't think DDD is on better than even footing with any of the highest tiered characters and is bad against a good many of them. Once again, the only "good" charcter I play is Zelda, and I know that DDD is one of her favourite matchups because she has complete dominance there.... frankly, I don't think he does well against the majority of the cast. I think he's overrated by anyone placing him above mid-high but is underrated if below mid-low... so he's mid tier to me.
Pieisthebest
Smash Apprentice
Rar me thinks mario = bottom tier
kare to disagree?
kare to disagree?
Ratherion
Smash Journeyman
No... he's got a good approach game, a decent enough spike and alright speed.
Grunt
Smash Master
not to mention his good edgeguarding game. this is truly what brawl mario was made to do.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
Quick question. Does Falco have an advantage over Pit?
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
They're even.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
NOOOOOOOOO
Meh. I thought as much. Alright one more. How are Diddy and Ness looking? Is Diddy locked and will Ness get any higher?
Meh. I thought as much. Alright one more. How are Diddy and Ness looking? Is Diddy locked and will Ness get any higher?
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Diddy is likely High Mid or Low high. Ness USED to be thought of as high, but with the deathgrabs fiasco a week or two again, it' effectively probably moved them down a Tier, maybe two
@ Hedgedawg: Nice list, I still think Wario is a bit overpowered but the place you have him in isn't too bad. I know Zelda dominates Dedede but one bad matchup shouldn't really move him down that far, eh? I could still see Kirby, Yoshi and Sonic just a little higher. Also, I know it's very hard to accept/believe, but Bowser really is much better in this game. He was buffed almost to the extent of G-Dub/Pikachu, his tilts are reliably fast and rangy, and firebreath seems a lot better this time around. He also has Whirling Fortress to get people out of his face, something most other heavy characters can't do well.
@Lucas/Ness: Lucas still has his place in mid tier, but Ness gets cg'ed worse than him and therefore is stuck in anywhere from lower mid to mid low.
@Lucas/Ness: Lucas still has his place in mid tier, but Ness gets cg'ed worse than him and therefore is stuck in anywhere from lower mid to mid low.
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
All I am trying to say is that marth is good (low part of the top tier proabably) but DEFINETLY not the best. He has and still is a good character, but thier are a few others that outmatch him and deserve a higher place them him on the tier list(MK, Snake, and maybe falco and G&W)
Ratherion
Smash Journeyman
I asked this question a while back, but people post so fast that if someone answered I probably lost it in the deluge of replies.
I fully realise that G&W is high teir, I can tell just from what I can see in the way he works, but what is it exactly that makes him place so high?
I fully realise that G&W is high teir, I can tell just from what I can see in the way he works, but what is it exactly that makes him place so high?
TehBo49
Smash Ace
@ Hedgedawg: Good list, but I agree with Kiwikomix, Bowser should move up. Pit & Lucario seem a little to high to me too. Yoshi should also move up to top of low. His b-air is like a weaker GW b-air. Also, is there a reason for the very high tier?
@ Mr. Escalator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1LgMnHlm3o&feature=related
Wario's *** is the most seductive, hands down.
@ Mr. Escalator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1LgMnHlm3o&feature=related
Wario's *** is the most seductive, hands down.
blade_master99
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2008
- Messages
- 21
I really think Ike is going to be in the middle tier section. Maybe at the bottom half of the Middle Tier. But that doesn't mean I won't main him anymore. As for Snake- He can play defensively real well, camps well, Great ground and aerial game. So I think snake might be at the higher part of the tier list.
PIMPSLAP
Smash Lord
hmmm Random choice should be top tier because he has the best of all the chars moves... sound good guys?
Dexter Morgan
Smash Apprentice
There will only be two tiers from now on:
Low tier -
Pit
Wario
Zamus
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Diddy Kong Meta Knight
Snake
Lucas
Sonic
King dedede
Pikmin & Olimar
Mario
Link
Kirby
Pikachu
Fox
Samus
Zelda
Bowser
DK
Yoshi
Peach
Ice climbers
Sheik
Ness
Marth
Luigi
Falco
Captain Falcon
Lucario
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & watch
Gannondorf
Jigglypuff
Toon Link
Wolf
Top tier - Random
Low tier -
Pit
Wario
Zamus
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Diddy Kong Meta Knight
Snake
Lucas
Sonic
King dedede
Pikmin & Olimar
Mario
Link
Kirby
Pikachu
Fox
Samus
Zelda
Bowser
DK
Yoshi
Peach
Ice climbers
Sheik
Ness
Marth
Luigi
Falco
Captain Falcon
Lucario
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & watch
Gannondorf
Jigglypuff
Toon Link
Wolf
Top tier - Random
TehBo49
Smash Ace
No, he has the best AND the worst of each character so he averages out in middle tier. Dragoon is top tier.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
As far as I know, there has never been a Pro random.....
Someone needs to break this trend
Someone needs to break this trend
PIMPSLAP
Smash Lord
I like the tier list dexter.... ahh but happens when both oppenents select random and the get counter picked? yea i will main random for the next tourny... i hope he does not get banned
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Hmm... well I was just saying that zelda was the only matchup that I had personal experience in... though I've played against him with my sonic too and I feel fairly dominant. I'm just saying that I don't think DDD has near enough good matchups to merit top tier... tell me if I'm wrong. Bowser received big buffs, but, likewise, has a lot of TERRIBLE matchups. I shuffled around a tiny bit based on your comments, but, overall, I feel like it's splitting hairs in some cases because the charcters are so close in terms of tier placement.
@TehBo49: at this point, MK and Snake do well enough to merit a gap between themselves and the next highest characters, but the new "very high" tier still has what I consider a big enough gap in skill between itself and "high" tier to merit its own tier.
Any complaints?
Sikarios
Smash Cadet
I think what places is him so high is sort of the same principle that places MK so high, which is, lack of weaknesses. I mean, being light weight isn't even a genuine weakness if you think about it.
The way he works, as you said, is what makes G&W great. His fair and bair's have already been heavily discussed on this board so I won't go into further depth about them, but needless to say they are some of the best in the game. He he a great dair move ala ToonLink and a one-of-a-kind up air that can control the opponent very well. The hitbox for his Nair is huge and VERY ANNOYING.
His jab is great: the little puffer thing outprioritizes a lot of stuff. His Dsmash and Fsmash are blindingly fast and still KO very well even if they have move decay.
And even if his projectile isn't that useful, his bucket is great for fighting projectile characters and gives him another KO move.
He has rock solid air, ground, approach, and grab games. Just check out the SBR discussion they have posted at the top of this forum, I think G&W is number 2 or so.
I think Zelda is high tier but not top. But we've already had this conversation and I have nothing new to add. I think Yoshi should be higher. Just a little bit above G-dorf and puff. Kirby is a bit low here. Overall he's got good attack speed, good aerials, good edgeguarding, and reasonably good power. Range is a problem but he's still pretty good. I'd say better than Sheik, all of PT's pokemon, and DK.
Dedede seems a bit low. Zelda destroys him but thats the only top tier who has a really big advantage against him. He's also one of the few that matches up fairly well against Snake which should offset his weakness against Zelda. He's better than Lucas, Wolf, Diddy and Peach at least.
Olimar is also a bit overrated. Amazing priority and good speed but the combination of being very lightweight and having an easily gimped recovery gets him KOed at very low percentages.
Overall a good list though.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
Zelda's too high and Kirby and Fox are too low. DK is kinda high too. Zelda's good but not all that great when you get right down to it.
TehBo49
Smash Ace
@ Hedgedawg: In that case, through ICs, Pikachu & Wario into very high tier because their not that far below the characters you have in there. Like I said before, Yoshi should be at the top of low. The rest is fine.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
okay... in that case:
now my high tier seems a little small... should I move ZSS and DDD up into it or no?
I've said this before and I understand your reasoning, but at the very best Zelda should be below ROB and Toonie.
I think you're overrating Pikman just a bit. He probably belongs in high tier, not very high.
Dedededededede can be moved up to high, but you might be overrating Zamus, who I would actually place below Kirby or Fox.
Boozer must be mid! At the very least, he should be where Mario is.
And Yoshi isn't bottom.
Sorry, I feel like I'm bugging you about your list over and over.
I think you're overrating Pikman just a bit. He probably belongs in high tier, not very high.
Dedededededede can be moved up to high, but you might be overrating Zamus, who I would actually place below Kirby or Fox.
Boozer must be mid! At the very least, he should be where Mario is.
And Yoshi isn't bottom.
Sorry, I feel like I'm bugging you about your list over and over.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Excellent list but only one complaint. There is no way Fox is that low! Fox owns many of the top tier candidates including Snake and D3 (D3 matchup is arguable, but Usmash KO at 115% is a major advantage for Fox). He has a decent matchup versus much of the top tier as well. He has many good hard to avoid strategies and combos (Dair to basically Dsmash, shine, Utilt, ect). What surprises me also is that Fox really can outcamp many characters. You take a good Fox that knows how to SHTL and he can easily outcamp ROB. His blaster is not to be overlooked, as it quickly recharges the decay on his other moves (Usmash!) and is great for a fast unavoidable 5-10%. I think he is still a great character with many overlooked abilities and some day will be considered high tier.
more info on the G&W thing: he's top because he has a great pressure game, due to his turtle, d-tilt, d-air, and to some extent his f-air, n-air and jab.
He has kill moves at low percents, and his up-air makes for great aerial control.
He can also agressively edgeguard, thanks to his parachute, and long lasting aerials
His only real problem is his weight, making chars with good kills off the top a problem
He has kill moves at low percents, and his up-air makes for great aerial control.
He can also agressively edgeguard, thanks to his parachute, and long lasting aerials
His only real problem is his weight, making chars with good kills off the top a problem
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
will do
well... at least... to some extent... but, for yoshi... um... who is worse than him besides others in the bottom tier?Top:
Snake
Meta Knight
Very High:
Game & Watch
Marth
Falco
Toon Link
Zelda
ROB
Wario
High:
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Wolf
Lucas
Dedede
Middle:
Luigi
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong
Fox
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Ness
Low:
Mario
Peach
Sonic
Bowser
Ike
Samus
Bottom:
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
I can't let Hedgedawg take all the Tier list commenting glory, so I'll repost mine with some edits
Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
High Tier:
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Wolf
Olimar
King Dedede
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Mid Tier:
Pit
Diddy Kong
Wario
Kirby
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Fox
ZSS
Bowser
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Low tier :
Ness
Peach
Sonic
Ike
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Bottom Tier:
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Does it look more properly proportioned now?
Also, I love the trio of Me, Kiwi, and Hedgedawg Tier list supremacy going on lately in this topic. No one can beat ours ^_^.
Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
High Tier:
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Wolf
Olimar
King Dedede
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Mid Tier:
Pit
Diddy Kong
Wario
Kirby
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Fox
ZSS
Bowser
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Low tier :
Ness
Peach
Sonic
Ike
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Bottom Tier:
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Does it look more properly proportioned now?
Also, I love the trio of Me, Kiwi, and Hedgedawg Tier list supremacy going on lately in this topic. No one can beat ours ^_^.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
heheheeh... a little friendly competition is always good.... I wish we had some sort of algorithm to see how different our two tier lists honestly are
Grunt
Smash Master
I think Wolf is a little too high. Once you learn how to get through his lasers he's not that tough to deal with. His aerials are decent too but altogether it doesn't add up to high tier. From my experience he also has a bit of problems KOing. His Fsmash and Dsmash are his best KO options but if you want to use them for building damage things can get tough.
lol, that's cause no one argued with mine, so I had no need to repost ^_^
I think I should get a "shot down the most nubs in non-violent ways" award
Also, if he doesn't just senselessly spam the laser, he shouldn't be punished for it
I think I should get a "shot down the most nubs in non-violent ways" award
um, you obviously play bad wolves. You seem to be forgetting using his aerials/tilts to rack up damage, which keeps his smashes fresh.
Also, if he doesn't just senselessly spam the laser, he shouldn't be punished for it
Grunt
Smash Master
Lol, yeah.
i reposted mine like 3 times with no comments, so i guess it was perfect.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I think his Dsmash is more often used for KOs and not damage building... and he has a few aerials which make legitimate KO options... but, yes, he has trouble KOing unless he's freshly spawned... and he doesn't like to grab edges.... he's probably high middle tier or low high tier.
^^since my reply will be missed due to edit+end of page, I'll repost it.
Wolf should have no trouble killing. If you use his blaster properly (to space/pressure more than spam), and use his aerials--which either autocancel, or you can time them to have them finished before he lands-- along with rather excellent tilts (his f-tilt has multiple hitboxes (I assume, because of the change in its lag between hitting and missing), meaning it still does damage after being degraded) to rack up damage, he can keep his smashes to kill.
Wolf should have no trouble killing. If you use his blaster properly (to space/pressure more than spam), and use his aerials--which either autocancel, or you can time them to have them finished before he lands-- along with rather excellent tilts (his f-tilt has multiple hitboxes (I assume, because of the change in its lag between hitting and missing), meaning it still does damage after being degraded) to rack up damage, he can keep his smashes to kill.
goodkid
Smash Lord
Wolf seems to be always debated. He's placing really well in tourneys, so he's definitely better than middle tier.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Hell, look how far my list has evolved since the very first edition on Gamefaqs.
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42497436
Top Tier:
Wolf
Snake
MetaKnight
Marth
High Tier:
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Fox
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Lucas
High-Mid Tier:
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Shiek
iike
Pit
Pikachu
Ness
Falco
Mid Tier:
Mr. Game and Watch
Lucario
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Samus
Wario
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
Low-Mid Tier:
Donkey Kong
Mario
Jigglypuff
Low tier:
Bowser (lonely)
Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Yoshi
I must say what in the blue hell was I smoking?
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42497436
Top Tier:
Wolf
Snake
MetaKnight
Marth
High Tier:
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Fox
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Lucas
High-Mid Tier:
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Shiek
iike
Pit
Pikachu
Ness
Falco
Mid Tier:
Mr. Game and Watch
Lucario
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Samus
Wario
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
Low-Mid Tier:
Donkey Kong
Mario
Jigglypuff
Low tier:
Bowser (lonely
)Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Yoshi
I must say what in the blue hell was I smoking?
Ratherion
Smash Journeyman
Ehl oh ehl CFalc in mid.
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