Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[metalmonstar]

@ metalmonstar

argh dont write tier lists based on the match up chart.....

if you conviniently ignore Dededes SUPPOSEDLY shocking match ups vs so many characters, why do you also ignore sonics decent tourney placements? Zelda is another example of these discrepencies.

your list seems to have its weighting completely random, you gotta keep it constant throughout.

I may have to break up my tier list since it really is a wall of text. I do think everything I have stated is important. I wanted to spark discussion of why Pit, Zelda, and such aren't higher when they have so many good matchups.

The truth is my chart is not based solely off matchups but also tournament ranks and slightly off perceived pros and cons which I had to try and be completely unbiased. I had to look past Dedede's awful matchups because he currently ranks third in tournaments. He must have something going for him. Not to mention other have started putting him lower lately. The list has to be weighted in some manor. I will admit, I may not have weighted it accurately and I figure that is something I can work on with discussion in this thread. Not to mention I also looked for patterns in their tournament standing, matchup, matchup ranking, and things the characters had in common. If you look at the bottom list that was based off longhorns you can see that patterns are developing. Also I tried to consider the pros and cons of the character. I was going to list them but a weighted chart would be the only way to and that would take too much time. If someone would be willing to give me an up to date pro and con chart for each character then I believe I can make an incredibly accurate tier list.

After looking at it, I will consider moving sonic up. It seems that most don't consider him a good character. Yet his matchup and tournament ranking fit right into mid tier. Sonic should warrant further discussion

I knew I would get some flak from Zelda but as it stands she has a lot of good matchups in fact she does well against several that are higher than her. Her tournamet ranking is too awful to go unnoticed, which is why I was hesitant off her spot.

Disclaimer: I understand that the match up chart may be inaccurate in several areas. I also understand that the tournament ranking isn't completely accurate either most likely due to popularity.

 

[Eclipse_the_Sun]

@A2ZOMG im aware of zamus's down b but there many situations where the tether is needed (mostly vertical recovary) and at these points she is in serious danger of being easily edgehogged

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Top Tier
Snake
Metaknight

Top tier seems fairly undisputed.

Very High tier
Mr Game and Watch
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.

This part of High tier seems undisputed also. Each of them have amazing matchups and do fairly well in tournaments. Not to mention they are just naturally good characters.

Disputed Very High and High tier
Toon Link- has a lot of good matchups, good character overall and does alright in tournaments
Pit – Has more good matchups then toon link but also more bad ones. Places better than Toon link in tournaments.
Zelda – Has a lot of good matchups and is generally considered a great character. However she hasn’t done well at tournaments at all. In fact she is ranked 31. Low tier and Bottom tier house those that Rank under 30. Maybe Zelda does deserve only high tier.
Olimar- Has a lot of good matchups, ranks just slightly below Toon Link in Tournaments. He is a great character except when it comes to being off the stage.
Wolf- If we weighted the matchups then olimar would just barely top Wolf. However they are so incredibly close. Wolf also ranks higher in tournaments than all those previously mentioned. His recovery isn’t that great either. He is generally considered a good character also.

These characters are mixed in Very High and High tier. They don’t quite make Very High yet they seem too good for just High tier.

High
Wario- Has good bit of good matchups and some bad. I can’t ignore the fact that he ranks 4th in tournaments though.
Pikachu-When weighted pikachu has the same matchup ranking as Wario. Yet places lower in tournaments.
Ice Climbers-Has the same matchup ranking as Wario and Pikachu yet doesn’t do nearly as well as those two in tournaments.
King Dedede- He just doesn’t have the matchups that those above him have. In fact he has more bad then good. Again I can’t ignore how well he does at tournaments. Not to mention his amazing chaingrab skills.
Kirby – Matchup wise Kirby does better than Dedede. In fact he actually has a favorable matchup against Dededed. However Kirby just doesn’t have good matchups versus the upper tier characters.
Diddy Kong- Maybe not as good as we thought but still a decent character. He has some favorable matchups against the upper tiers. He places low in tournaments though. He still has crazy banana tactics.
Fox- Maybe even borderline mid tier. However I think he just makes high. He has more bad matchups then good and doesn’t seem to fair well against those above him.

I don’t think my list for high will be generally approved by the populous. Most characters in this group are ranked above 20 except the oddball Diddy. Dedede and Fox are the only ones to have more bad then good matchups.

Middle Tier

Lucario- He matches up with some of the higher tier characters. He is ranked 20th when it comes to tournaments. He is a pretty cool character to top it off.
Zero Suit Samus- I am surprised most don’t rank her higher. She seems like she could fit into even High tier. She matches up decently with the upper tier characters and has more good matchups then bad.
Lucas- He gives a couple of higher tier characters a handful and just barely has more good matchups then bad.
Donkey Kong- He may be even higher than this. From what I have heard his range gives quite a few characters some problems. He doesn’t have as good of matchups as those above him. However, For a mid tier character he has a great tournament ranking. He currently ranks 11th. When everyone else ranks in the 20’s this is noticeable.
Ness- Trying to hold onto a good tier spot after the whole chain grab incident.
Luigi- He gives a couple of upper tier characters some trouble. He lacks a lot of good matchus though. In terms of matchup ranking he is just below Ness.
Mario- Although buffed from Melee he still isn’t up to caliber with the rest of the cast. He has hardly any good matchups, but he is pretty neutral with almost all of the cast.
Bowser- I am sorry bowser fans, but it really pains me just to put him here. His matchups are so bad. Almost that of bottom tier characters. I just his ftilt and Bowsercide save him though.

This tier was tricky to do since some characters looked like they felt more at place in low tier or bottom tier. Interesting to note, all but DK rank in the 20’s when it comes to tournaments.

Low
Sheik- She has the best matchups of all of them. In fact matchup wise, she seems to fit into mid tier. Her tournament ranking also seems well suited for mid tier.
Peach- She has a pretty good tournament ranking but her matchups aren’t that great.
Pokemon Trainer- I didn’t bother with him. So I just put him here. I did note that he has the second worse tournament ranking.
Ike- Has pretty good tournament record and comparatively not too bad of matchups.
Sonic – Has slightly better matchups then Ike but does a good bit worse at tournaments.
Yoshi- Matchups are bad and tournament ranking is the worst. Yoshi seems well suited for even bottom tier.

This tier must be hard. All that flak from Sonic, Ike, and Pokemon trainer mainers who think their character is good. Well at least the Ike players have hope since he does alright at tournaments. I must note though that some characters do well in tournaments while others do awful. This group has no real pattern like middle tier.

Bottom Tier

Link- Has the best Matchups of bottom tier. In fact he has matchups that could be considered good for even low tier.
Samus- Has worse matchups then link but maybe low tier worthy.
Jigglypuff
Gannondorf
Captain Falcon

I think bottom tier is almost completely set in stone. Interesting to note all of the bottom Tier characters have tournament rankings of below 30.

So I guess I will make a tier list

Top Tier
Snake
Metaknight
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.

Very High
Toon Link
Pit
Zelda
Olimar
Wolf

High Tier
Wario
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Kirby
Diddy Kong
Fox
Middle tier
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Donkey Kong
Ness
Luigi
Mario

Low tier
Sheik
Peach
Bowser
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Sonic

Bottom Tier
Link
Samus
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Gannon
Captain Falcon


Points to note, Yoshi just seemed to bad matchup wise to be with the rest of low tier. Bowser didn’t have the matchups to be with middle tier, he may even be able to go lower. Middle and High need a lot of discussion in my opinion. Note I based this off of the character Matchups and tournament rankings. I wanted to add pros and cons but the only way to do that accurately was to make the pros and cons weighted. That would take way too much time. I used longhorns/Nigerian star storm’s tier list as a good starting point.

Top Tier:
Snake Rank 1 (1 great, 23 good, 10 neutral, 4 bad)
Meta Knight rank 2 ( 1 great, 30 good, 5 neutral, 2 bad)
Mr. Game and Watch Rank 5 (5 great, 26 good, 5 neutral, 2 bad)
Marth Rank 6 (3 greats, 25 good, 7 neutral, 3 bad)
Falco Rank 9 (2 great, 24 good, 9 neutral, 3 bad)
R.O.B.Rank 7 (24 good, 8 neutral, 6 bad)
Toon Link* Rank 16 (24 good, 11 neutral, 3 bad)

High Tier:
Ice Climbers Rank 19 (19 good, 10 neutral, 9 bad)
Wolf Rank 10 (22 good, 10 neutral, 5 bad, 1 really bad)
Olimar Rank 17 (2 great, 19 good, 9 neutral, 8 bad)
King Dedede Rank 3 (11 good, 9 neutral, 18 bad)
Pikachu Rank 8 (1 great, 18 good, 10 neutral, 8 bad, 1 really bad)
Diddy Kong Rank 26 (14 good, 11 neutral, 13 bad)
Zelda Rank 31 (23 good, 9 neutral, 6 bad)
Pit Rank 13 (24 good, 9 neutral, 5 bad)
Fox Rank 11 (11 good, 14 neutral, 12 bad, 1 really bad)
Wario Rank 4 (3 great, 10 good, 16 neutral, 9 bad)
Kirby* Rank 14 (18 good, 9 neutral, 11 bad)


Mid Tier:
Lucario Rank 20 (13 good, 17 neutral, 8 bad)
Lucas Rank 22 (1 great, 14 good, 9 neutral, 13 bad, 1 really bad)
ZSS Rank 23 m(16 good, 12 neutral, 10 bad)
Donkey Kong Rank 11 (10 good, 12 neutral, 16 bad)
Ness Rank 28 (12 good, 6 neutral, 18 bad, 2 really bad)
Luigi Rank 25 (9 good, 7 neutral, 22 bad)
Bowser Rank 27 (4 good matchups, 6 neutral, 27 bad, 1 really bad)
Mario Rank 29 (5 good matchups, 14 neutral, 19 bad)

Low tier :
Peach* Rank 18 (4 good, 13 neutral, 21 bad)
Sheik Rank 24 (9 good, 17 neutral, 12 bad)
Pokemon Trainer Rank 36
Yoshi Rank 37 (2 good, 8 neutral, 28 bad)
Ike Rank 12 (7 good, 6 neutral, 25 bad)
Sonic Rank 21 (7 good, 11 neutral, 19 bad, 1 really bad)

Bottom Tier:
Link Rank 34 (10 good, 11 neutral, 17 bad)
Samus Rank 35 (12 good, 4 neutral, 22 bad)
Jigglypuff Rank 30 (5 good, 7 neutral, 25 bad, 1 really bad)
Ganondorf Rank 33 ( 2 good, 6 neutral, 26 bad, 4 really bad)
Captain Falcon Rank 32 (1 good matchup, 3 neutral, 24 bad, 7 really bad)

Great tier list.... better than any I've seen so far... but if yoshi's matchups are that terrible.... which they really are.... don't you think he should be bottom tier? Link does better than him. DDD also seems high to me... he has a lot of bad matchups

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Im sorry but this list is flawed in many ways. i dont believe you looked around at results from tournaments much before posting this list. first of all the top 5 in the game right now are snake,MK, DEDEDE, toon link, and G&W (not in any particular order). if you dont believe me ask anyone involved in tourney play. second its very hard to determine the rest of the tier list because i dont think under the top 5 characters have been payed attention to much. the game has been released for a short time and their are so many characters that i dont think there has been enough tourneys to determine anything further then the top 5.

second, for some reason it seems to be a popular assumption that marth is still one of the best in this game. i believe your tier list was mistakenly made based on how good you think the characters are. marth would not be top if that is the case because alot of his redeeming qualities from melee were revoked. His ability to combo was his greatest asset and with brawl physics that is not possible. marth would probably be mid-low tier in a tier list for character ability. i say this because he lacks the things needed to be top tier in brawl. which are...

Extreme speed (as in attack speed and move speed)
Range w/ power
Spamable projectiles
chain grab

That made me lol. Did you even play this game?

 

[ShadowLink84]

The requirements for Brawl is something more along these lines.

1.Combo ability
2. Approach ability. (How well they can close in upon the opponent as well as how easily and safely)
3. Killing ability
4. Priority

 

[PIMPSLAP]

also luck and luckly attacks.

 

[Metro Knight]

I like that tier list as well. Mainly because it seems like you did some sort of research before making it, as opposed to people just doing it from the top of their head. I think the Low/Bottom tier will be disputed for a long time, much longer than the top tiers will be. For instance, I think Peach, Mario, and Sheik are worse than Link, but I bet I wil have 10 people argue differently.

 

[BDawgPHD]

That made me lol. Did you even play this game?

I'd say he's not far off. Marth for low tier is absurd, but Marth for top tier or even high-high tier is kind of absurd, too. Marth has range, but he doesn't have the control that he used to have. He gets ***** by some of the higher-tiered characters (some, like MK and Snake, and probably TL.....I'd say even Olimar would kind of own him). What made him godly in Melee was his brutal grab range, his brutal combo and death-combo ability, his brutal range, and his brutal strength. What makes him good in Brawl is his range and his strength, but what keeps him from being really good is the speed and control that the higher-tiered characters possess. Sure, if Marth gets a tipper, he kills people at low percentages, but Ike can do the same thing with a lot of his moves. And unless you're a tipper machine, it's going to be easier to kill people with Ike than with Marth.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

Too bad Marth and MK don't have any projectiles at all, and aside from Falco none of his Top Tier characters have a CG. Snake also moves relatively slows (but attacks fast I'll admit). Learn what your talking about please.



Anyways, that list is pretty good, but pretty **** similar to mine

well if you were paying more attention to what i actually said you'd notice that i said his tier list is flawed. MK deserves to be there because he had nearly all of the above. Snake has ridiculous speed power and range on almost all of his good attacks. De3's chain grab has caused several stages to be banned from tourney, not to mention the spam ability of waddle-dees. G&W has ******** attack speed and can kill probably faster than any character in the game.

That made me lol. Did you even play this game?

i probably not only play the game more then you but i would probably **** you as well. explain where my post didnt make sense?

The requirements for Brawl is something more along these lines.

1.Combo ability
2. Approach ability. (How well they can close in upon the opponent as well as how easily and safely)
3. Killing ability
4. Priority

Comboing in brawl is nearly non-existent. i dont think most brawl players understand the definition of a combo. a combo is a chain of attacks usually larger then 2 or 3 hits which cannot be escaped after the first hit, despite DI or air dodging, provided the player controlling the character does not mess up.

approaching is not nearly as important in brawl when you can just spam projectiles. spamming is alot harder to punish in this game.

the other 2 are true but are already a part of the list i wrote.

 

[metalmonstar]

Great tier list.... better than any I've seen so far... but if yoshi's matchups are that terrible.... which they really are.... don't you think he should be bottom tier? Link does better than him. DDD also seems high to me... he has a lot of bad matchups

For the most part the top list with all the reasons is more of a hope to get some discussion on where people go. I also like to think that the top list is most accurate. The middle list is my own opinion based on what I stated in the previous list. In that list I did move Yoshi down quite a bit due to his poor tournament record and awful matchups. However in the upper list I kept him their since it seemed too drastic to pull him all the way down to the bottom. Not to mention I watched a Yoshi AT video and the little guy has some interesting tricks. A lot of yoshi players have stated he isn't that bad and he was buffed from melee which made me hesitant of knocking him down to bottom in anything but my opinion list. DDD has too good of a tournament record to let his matchups pull him down a significant amount. I read your tier list and I agree he gets too much credit. I did the best I could bumping him down, but I couldn't pull him down too drastically.

The bottom list is pretty much an exact copy of Longhorn's. If you read my the text you will see that I give him credit for that list. I just added matchups and tournament rankings to it so I could get an idea of how my tier list will look. Which are the above two. I also used yours as a reference since I think you have good ideas.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

For the most part the top list with all the reasons is more of a hope to get some discussion on where people go. I also like to think that the top list is most accurate. The middle list is my own opinion based on what I stated in the previous list. In that list I did move Yoshi down quite a bit due to his poor tournament record and awful matchups. However in the upper list I kept him their since it seemed too drastic to pull him all the way down to the bottom. Not to mention I watched a Yoshi AT video and the little guy has some interesting tricks. A lot of yoshi players have stated he isn't that bad and he was buffed from melee which made me hesitant of knocking him down to bottom in anything but my opinion list. DDD has too good of a tournament record to let his matchups pull him down a significant amount. I read your tier list and I agree he gets too much credit. I did the best I could bumping him down, but I couldn't pull him down too drastically.

The bottom list is pretty much an exact copy of Longhorn's. If you read my the text you will see that I give him credit for that list. I just added matchups and tournament rankings to it so I could get an idea of how my tier list will look. Which are the above two. I also used yours as a reference since I think you have good ideas.

im sorry but despite De3's match ups you cannot possibly put him in anything lower then 3rd place. From what i understand the tier lists arent based off anything other then tourney results. i can understand why you would put him low because of his bad match ups but the rules of creating a tier list should not change. Thats like saying falcon should have actually been mid tier because he got ***** by alot of characters who could gimp his recovery. even though that is so players used him way to well for that to happen often and so the character did well. this is the same case with Dedede.

as for the rest of your list i agree with you that it is hard to develop and mid-tier and low tier because there hasnt been much steady records of them or time to see what they can do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

BDawg: Stop posting about Marth plz.

You are clearly ignorant of him.

Marth is great and he goes even with TL, Olimar and MK.

Marth isn't at least high tier? Are you on drugs?

STFU man, you are pissing me off with your ignorance.

Tier list should be based on match-ups with tournament results serving as supporting evidence of what is already known about the match-ups.

 

[BEES]

Personally, I think MK might be god tier. Hear me out. Of all of the top tiers, he seems to reduce the number of competitive characters the most. He has the largest number of theoretically favorable matchups. Only a handful of characters can even fight him due to his speed and priority, and it is a very slow, aggravating fight for them.

While Snake has been very successful, I have to wonder how much of this is due to metaknight's dominance over Snake's counters, and Snake's own successful countering of Metaknight.

Taking Metaknight out of the equation... giving him the Akuma treatment, could open the door for more competitive characters, and might cut back on Snake's own success due him encountering more counters, and less Metaknights.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Except that...Snake owns more characters harder then MK.

Also, Benjamin Linus...Marth in low mid tier?

Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread for a bit.

 

[slikvik]

lol, how many of you actually go to/do well in tournaments?

 

[ROOOOY!]

That's pretty fanatical E.L.
Metalmonstar's list is decent, however there are a few characters I don't agree with, like Wolf being so high up, and Ike and Sonic being so low.
Sonic's doing quite well in tournaments as it happens, I think he's got more tournament potential then we'd have guessed.

 

[metalmonstar]

im sorry but despite De3's match ups you cannot possibly put him in anything lower then 3rd place. From what i understand the tier lists arent based off anything other then tourney results. i can understand why you would put him low because of his bad match ups but the rules of creating a tier list should not change. Thats like saying falcon should have actually been mid tier because he got ***** by alot of characters who could gimp his recovery. even though that is so players used him way to well for that to happen often and so the character did well. this is the same case with Dedede.

as for the rest of your list i agree with you that it is hard to develop and mid-tier and low tier because there hasnt been much steady records of them or time to see what they can do.

Tier list can’t be based of tournament placement solely because popularity and skill skew the results. A really good player may help push a bad character up in tournament placing.

Also if there are 100 good metaknight mains across the globe yet there are only 2 good DK players across the globe. Then is obvious that metaknight will have more tournament wins and a higher ranking.

To me tiers are based off how good the character is when everyone is playing at the same skill level. If a Fox faces a Pikachu, both at the same skill level, who will win more often then not.

Which is why I propose the following system,

First compile a weighted list of pro and cons. This can be weight, speed, priority, little quirks, advanced techniques and so on. This would take a lot of time. Something I had hoped to do but realized I couldn’t. To me this is the most important aspect in deciding where a character goes, because this shows how good a character is and can be.

Secondly we arrive at a list of matchups. I hold it as being the second most important because it allows us to see how well the character stacks up against everyone else. However it is the second most important because a bad character could have one aspect that shuts down a better character completely. Look at Snake, he has the worst matchups of any top tier character, yet there is little dispute that he is the best.

Finally we have tournament placing. In time this will become a reliable way of placing characters. However it is the most open to skewing and bias, which is why I rank it third in importance. Better players can tip their main up a bit on the scale and popularity also plays a part. It will be years before tournament standings reflect an accurate tier list, and we are trying to make one now.

Tier list should be based on match-ups with tournament results serving as supporting evidence of what is already known about the match-ups.

Pretty much the way I have it know.

He has the largest number of theoretically favorable matchups.

Actually Game and Watch has the most favorable matchups. Only Marth and Toon Link really provide bad matchups. Game and Watch has good matchups with most upper tier characters and a couple neutrals against them. He also has a good bit of match ups that are high advantages. Metaknight on the other hand gets beat by Snake and DK. Some have supposed that Zelda has a good match against. Maybe even a few more characters are neutral with Metaknight then are given credit for.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ROOOOOOOY: Dude, that was some of the dumbest **** I read on the Brawl boards. I found those post to be full of ignorance, and it has already been established that Marth can be no lower then high tier.

Then you have two people who don't have a ****ing clue, spewing nonsense about him.

Yeah, **** that.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Snip

Sorry I do not require someone from 2008 of May providing the definition to myself, someone from September 2005.
It's annoying, its condescending, and extremely ignorant on your part.


Combos do exist in Brawl. WHile they do not exist as great in number they still do exist.
The majority of combos is held by the top tier characters.

There is also the fact that these characters have moves that place their opponent in a situation that makes it difficult for the opponent to escape, or allows them to continue pressuring the foe. This is why at the botom I said it is a very general list, because it encompasses everything. It is non specific.

approaching is not nearly as important in brawl when you can just spam projectiles. spamming is alot harder to punish in this game.

the other 2 are true but are already a part of the list i wrote.

Approaching is extremely important in Brawl. have you been playing some other game that I do not know of?
It is because of the campy and defensive behavior that approaching is extrmeely important.
Looka t all the high and top tier characters. All of them have the ability to approach the opponent without a great risk.
Your logic is utter crap.

Can bowser approach?
Can Ike approach?
Can Ganandorf approach?
Can Captain Falcon approach?
if yes can they approach safely?

Do they have a large number of approaches?
Do the mvoes they use for approaching leave them open for attack?
Can they approach quickly?
If they approach can they take advantage?
Can they maintain that advantage?

This is the reason why the loss of wavedashing and L canceling was such a hit to the offensive game. The lack of approaching options means that characters naturally gifted with approaching will do very well and those that cannot go in the crap schute.

Use your head.
Killing potential doesn't mean too much since MK and Diddy can't kill very easily.
Combo ability, being capable of using inescapable combos or being able to place your opponent in a situatioin where they are forced to take a hit, or have difficulty avoiding a hit is what matters most.
It doesn't mean a **** thing if you kill at 70% but can't approach or combo.


Post less and lurk moar.

 

[Sikarios]

My computer screen seriously gets hotter when I come into the Tier Discussion thread. It's great!

 

[BDawgPHD]

BDawg: Stop posting about Marth plz.

You are clearly ignorant of him.

Marth is great and he goes even with TL, Olimar and MK.

Marth isn't at least high tier? Are you on drugs?

STFU man, you are pissing me off with your ignorance.

Tier list should be based on match-ups with tournament results serving as supporting evidence of what is already known about the match-ups.

Pardon, have you played with GOOD people before?

I played with a guy who's really good with Marth and Olimar, granted he's a lot better with Olimar. I use MK, if you forgot. When I play his Olimar, we usually go dead even, usually alternating between wins. However, when I played his Marth, I more or less owned him every time. Also, if I remember right, the last tournament I went to didn't really showcase any Marths, probably because everyone there realized he wasn't that good.

Now chill, because your ignorance isn't getting on my nerves yet, but it might if you keep it up, ya know

 

[ShadowLink84]

Obviously you haven't played a good marth bdawg.

 

[Deathcarter]

First of all, NOBODY should use the character match-up chart as a reference to a tier list. To person with Pikachu avatar, metalmoster or something (don't bug me on not remembering names, I am REAL bad with names), I love how researched your tier list is, good job. However, since I assume that is the first tier list you posted in this thread, it can be a little opinionated (is that a word) since we have little to go on for most of the characters. Going to the character forums to look up info on a character's strengths and going on from there imo is more effective than using faulty info made by somebody who is not even highly regconized (no offense to Ivan intended).

I vote that only Nss, Hedgehawg, Kiwi, and metal make tier lists as they are the only ones who have put thought into their tier lists and continue to evolve them (that is a little rude to say, but most people who put quicky tier lists do not seem to put a lot of effort and research into them and are also new posters) and we quickly educate the new posters who haven't even bothered to read the last 15-20 pages and put Ike in high tier (that or get Kirby to dish out hard punishment ).

 

[robosteven]

Where on the tire list is Ness? The infinite grab lowers him a ton, but hey, that's just with three characters.

He and Lucas. Ness looks like he's got some potential.

Edit: Yes, TIRE LIST.

 

[TehBo49]

@ metalmonster: G&W also gets beaten by Olimar, & I personally feel Snake has an advantage on him (if only just slightly).

@ BDawgPHD: You probably don't want to provoke him. He's a Marth fanatic who will fight to the death for Marth's sake. Let's just all agree that Marth is high tier & leave it at that.

@ robotseven: Most people think Ness is in low-mid.

 

[robosteven]

Most people think Ness is in low-mid.

I feel like he's a bit better than that.

I mean, he's not high tier, but I'd say that he's at least just mid. He's not actually as bad as most people say he is.

 

[TehBo49]

I know what you mean. But compared to everyone else, he just seems to rank in the lower half of mid. His recovery is easy to gimp, & his ground game is mediocre.

 

[Corigames]

I'd just like to point out that people saying certain characters shouldn't be low (on whoever's tier list) because they have a few good matchups should listen.

Someone has to be on the bottom, it's the sad truth. You can't have not bottom, there will be someone holding down the very end of the list. Does this mean there is no hope for that person? No. But someone has to be there. Deal with it.

 

[SaxDude93]

Was I right in predicting the next big argument would be about DDD?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Just to clear this up, and to get people to stop doing it:
TIER LISTS ARE NOT BASED ENTIRELY ON MATCHUPS.
They also are based or are reflected in tourney results, and are meant to be a measure of who would win what if players played other players with equal skill levels. It's a measure of how good a character is, not how many other characters they can beat.
So no one wants to come here and see umpteen tier lists based off matchups. You can establish them as an alternate tier list mebbe, but they aren't the most important factor.

Edit: Whoever that was with the Pit avatar about five or so posts above, thanks for the compliment. But I shouldn't be viewed as one of the more intelligent posters on here... after all, I've been lurking for a long time but have only been posting for six months, and there's still a lot I don't understand.

 

[Wubblez]

Was I right in predicting the next big argument would be about DDD?

Every post should be abotu DDD because he is just awesome

Personally Metalmonstar, I like the way you want a tier list to be created. As long as the people who make it actually know what they are talking about, it would be pretty darn accurate.

As For Ness, I to see him as a low-mid, yes he has potential (as most characters do), but in comparison to everyone else I just don't see AS much potential.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Just to clear this up, and to get people to stop doing it:
TIER LISTS ARE NOT BASED ENTIRELY ON MATCHUPS.
They also are based or are reflected in tourney results, and are meant to be a measure of who would win what if players played other players with equal skill levels. It's a measure of how good a character is, not how many other characters they can beat.
So no one wants to come here and see umpteen tier lists based off matchups. You can establish them as an alternate tier list mebbe, but they aren't the most important factor.

Edit: Whoever that was with the Pit avatar about five or so posts above, thanks for the compliment. But I shouldn't be viewed as one of the more intelligent posters on here... after all, I've been lurking for a long time but have only been posting for six months, and there's still a lot I don't understand.

Same, except change 6 months to 2 1/2 for me lol.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I'd just like to point out that people saying certain characters shouldn't be low (on whoever's tier list) because they have a few good matchups should listen.

Someone has to be on the bottom, it's the sad truth. You can't have not bottom, there will be someone holding down the very end of the list. Does this mean there is no hope for that person? No. But someone has to be there. Deal with it.

I'm archiving this in a file in my computer. This is pure truth and win

 

[Kiwikomix]

Everyone intelligent on this thread should make some sort of "Smash Front Room" and formulate a tier list all together.
TEAMWORK.

@ Wubblez: Ness will be low-mid if he's lucky. Since Lucas currently resides in mid-mid, it'll be tough for Ness to get more than about four spaces below him. Add in the fact that he's so easily counterpicked, and it'll be a long, hard road for him.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Everyone intelligent on this thread should make some sort of "Smash Front Room" and formulate a tier list all together.
TEAMWORK.

@ Wubblez: Ness will be low-mid if he's lucky. Since Lucas currently resides in mid-mid, it'll be tough for Ness to get more than about four spaces below him. Add in the fact that he's so easily counterpicked, and it'll be a long, hard road for him.

That's an excellent theory, I threw it out there a while ago, but unfortunately it requires intelligent people, which we are extremely lacking in for some reason.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Edit: Whoops, didn't mean to post. Blarg

 

[Deathcarter]

Edit: Whoever that was with the Pit avatar about five or so posts above, thanks for the compliment. But I shouldn't be viewed as one of the more intelligent posters on here... after all, I've been lurking for a long time but have only been posting for six months, and there's still a lot I don't understand.

I understand what you are saying. But since no smash back roomers or major players post in this thread, you pretty much in the upper echelon as far as posters in this thread are concerned (unless you only factor the frequent intelligent posters on here. I am inclined to agree with you then). Unfortunately, NSS has you beat as far as tier quality is concerned imo (and I had to say that with a grain of salt considering I beleive Kirby players will rule smash one day )

Also, do you get your character info from personal exp., the tactical discussion, this thread or each of the character forums? I also ask this to NSS, BDawg, and Hedgehawg.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Smash Front Room.....lol

 

[Kiwikomix]

Also, do you get your character info from personal exp., the tactical discussion, this thread or each of the character forums? I also ask this to NSS, BDawg, and Hedgehawg.

All of them. Kiwi = Pro Lurker.
Personal experience is good if you're defending your main or second or someone you've used extensively. Use it sparingly though, if you say you beat your friend with such and such character people will just say "good for you" and move on.
The thread I would most recommend in Tactical Discussion is the Matchup Thread, but BE CAREFUL. Don't use the chart, it's inaccurate in a lot of places. Instead, pay attention to the more intelligent debaters in the later pages.
This thread is a great place, but it's also noob-infested. You'll have to check your BS meter often to make sure no one's just trying to sound intelligent. And don't immediately adjust your viewpoints based on what just one person says, try to see if someone else agrees first.
The character forums are useful if I need to look something up quickly, like "does Snake's jab cancel out Pikachu's thundershock?" (No, it doesn't.)
Basically lurk, lurk, and lurk moar. And play the game often, avoiding restricting yourself to just one character.

 

[St. Viers]

hey, we all have aim right?

we can discuss via that ^_^
If not, I'm sure there are free forum site things around XD

anywho, bdawg, marth is still good: I know ur talking about dark cloud, but his brawl marth isn't that good--I mean, I could beat it with bowser, like 2-3 months ago. Try playing my marth, or kevin's, he pretty much owns everyone except you (MK), me (G&W), and ken (snake)...so yeah, that;s from a (slightly nubish) practical standpoint, Theory wise, he still as a strong disjointed hitbox with fast enough aerials to punish air-dodgers, and a good, fast ground game. Add to that that his b move has one of the best ranges in that game, and shield pokes, and voila, bottom top, top-high ^_^

And smash front room sounds like a great idea--the nubby BR XD

oh, btw, I love how the BR said pretty much the same thing I did about falco, like 100 pages ago ^_^

@kiwi: word to lurking, and then posting in the forums when something is unclear--gets you so much info ^_^ I get my info from lurking, playing as much as possible, watching vids, and knowing how the game works...as well as talking to good players, keeping up with tournie winnings, etc