Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Grunt]

You can't jump out if they mash fast enough. How does Ness break out of this without taking 80-100% damage, again? Lucas can DI out of it, as I've heard, but it usually sets up for a free smash attack.

NVM.
read my post in the Thread. i figured out what i was doing wrong, so...HOLY **** BRAWL IS BROKEN!

j/k

 

[DarkKnight077]

http://gaiaonline.com
It's essentially the biggest sh*t pit in internet history.
Oh, and Shoryuken is a hive of pure win and awesome. SRK! WE DA BEST!!!

4Chan beats most internet sites. So yea calling Gaia is a piece of crude makes Neopets much better huh?

 

[Corigames]

Rule 1 and 2 new***.

 

[Vash_15]

TIERS R 4 QUEERS
But I guess since Melee's tier list was an abomination I should help out this one.
I think bowser maybe deserves mid-low tier, he has been buffed a bit, and at times i up msashed a guy to death then was able to bowsercide him, easiest win ever. Marth and Pit both deserve high/top tier, both are fast and strong, with Pit's arrows SERIOUSLY screwing with your approach, Link is mid tier because he is usable and can come in handy, even though toon link is better. Ganon is better than C Falcon so Ganon could be low mid tier, shiek could still potentially be high mid/high tier and zelda could be mid-high mid

 

[Ills]

Rule 1 and 2 new***.

I thought that only applied to raids?

 

[Corigames]

Shows who the new***s are, doesn't it?

 

[Ills]

Shows who the new***s are, doesn't it?

:/

I don't think new***s run around spouting memes at the slightest mention of 4chan.

There's more to life than 4chan and that stuff, you know.

 

[aznxk3vi17]

Actually, both "rules" whatever and whatever and "new***" was coined by one that you would consider as such, a "new***." People who have been around since the beginning (yours truly) just take this in stride. By condemning people left and right for being "new***s," you are actually exposing yourself as the true junior. Ignore him, Ills.

Besides, if you really think that 4chan is still a small, recluse corner of the internet, visited by the elite few who shun outsiders, i.e. "new***s," you're simply crazy and simple.

tl;dr: if you say "new***" and "rules 1 and 2," you are actually proving your own status as one who has only recently begun to visit 4chan ZOMG I BROKE THE RULES WOW IM A NEW***

 

[Patinator]

Personally I can see wolf making it to mid-high or maybe even high tier. He has a ton of fans, so a lot of people will represent him at tournaments. I personally wouldn't rate him that high because of the easily gimped recovery by most of the cast during his up B start up. I love his attacks though, they have some great potential.

I think the only ones I'm confident putting in bottom tier right now are bowser and link. I just can't see them moving up the list too high.

Well, if Wolf is easily gimped from his Fire Wolf, then Fox and Falco are gimp-able even moreso.

The reason people think Wolf is good is because he is. None of his moves, save for his Up B, have any remarkable start-up lag, and only one or two have long ending lag, off the top of my head. Besides, if you're close enough and flashy enough, you can always try and do what is almost unexpectable: using Wolf Flash against a non-invincible edgehogging opponent, spiking them to death.

Not to mention the fact that his projectile, though slow, has apparently high priority. And need I mention his Reflector?

Anyway, I think Bowser can be higher than bottom. Sure, he has a lot of slow moves and low range comparitavely, but... He does have a few quick ones.

But no higher than High-Low Tier.

 

[Xiivi]

Well, if Wolf is easily gimped from his Fire Wolf, then Fox and Falco are gimp-able even moreso.

Wolf easily has the worst recovery of the 3 space animals due to the sheer glitchiness involved that will allow for him to be easily punished. His would be easily the best if it weren't for this case.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well the recent Ness/Lucas findings really hurt their once thought of Low-High tir standing, and add to the fact that they weren't doing very well in the US in the first place, and their matchups have basicially gone down the drain. I say the dissuction should now be focused on HOW far they will drop.


I'd say it depends on how heavily this gets abused. IMO I'd say they would be around the Low-Mid to High-Low or possibly even near the bottom

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think Ness will shoot straight to bottom of low tier, maybe even bottom tier, while Lucas will stay maybe high in low tier, or bottom of mid. I say that because the infinite does not work as well on Lucas as it does on Ness, so matchup wise Lucas will be less hurt (though still severely damaged).

 

[Shark Week]

oh come on.

if you all feel it's truly THAT game breaking, then ban that tactic. it's not a big deal. we banned a few tactics in melee, let's just kick this one out, if it's going to completely destroy what are otherwise pretty decent characters.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

This isn't something they can ban like the ICs Wobbling or their Bthrow infinte. This is a combonation of faulty programming and Brawl's physics enigne. The person doing the grab doesn't control how long they stay stunned.


And you can't simply say ban all grabs on Ness/Lucas, that's just as stupid.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't think it will be banned, just like the DDD chaingrab probably isn't going to be banned anytime soon. It also only works on Ness and Lucas, making it specifically banned in only two matchups, and only with some characters. What are we going to do, say that you're not allowed to grab Ness or Lucas?

The only tactics banned in melee were stalling tactics, such as wall bombing, rising pound, luigi's ladder, ect (all of which were still allowed for recovery purposes.)

 

[Shark Week]

i'm not saying nobody should be allowed to grab them EVER.

i'm just saying, it's pretty obvious when someone is abusing that tactic. let's just say, you're only allowed to grab ness/lucas twice without moving. any more than that, that's banned.

i don't know, to me this just seems like a really simple issue to resolve. and believe me, i HATE fighting ness/lucas, i would love nothing more than for the both of them to be taken to bottom tier.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Don't forget Wobbling >_>.


But yeah, it's basicially just tough luck for them.

 

[Deadandlivin]

Snake, DDD, GaW, Toon Link, Pika, Lucas, Meta knight, Marth and Wolf will be in the top.

Thinking Snake and Pika being avsolute top.
If you can get 100% sure on the IC chain grab hell surely be nr.1

 

[Dark Sonic]

Then everyone will simply grab them twice every single time, let them go (after attacking them from the grab of course) and grab them again. Repeat as many times as possible. It's harder to resolve than you think.

 

[Shark Week]

Snake, DDD, GaW, Toon Link, Pika, Lucas, Meta knight, Marth and Wolf will be in the top.

Thinking Snake and Pika being avsolute top.
If you can get 100% sure on the IC chain grab hell surely be nr.1

do you even have brawl yet?

Then everyone will simply grab them twice every single time, let them go (after attacking them from the grab of course) and grab them again. Repeat as many times as possible. It's harder to resolve than you think.

but that wouldn't be grabbing twice and then moving on with the match... that's just grabbing twice, then grabbing twice again, and then grabbing twice some more.

i mean, i get what you're saying. it just seems to me, if we can ban wobbling (and we did), we can ban grab whoring on ness/lucas (and part of me hopes we don't... i hate those two).

 

[Lucario2k8]

lol, yeah pikachu is ****, and lucas, and dedede isnt great, mid-tier IMO, R.O.B for god tier!his recovery ftw, and his smashes ****in luv that big gay robot, oh and his super taunts make me laugh.were will diddy kong come in?mid i think.

 

[Dark Sonic]

But we never really agreed on banning wobbling. Many tournaments still allowed it, in the same way they allowed infinite drill shining.

I mean, it may be feasible to ban it, but at the same time people will just go as close to the arbitrary ban line as possible. And even two grabs is enough to severly hurt them in some matches, as grab attacks refresh your other moves, and you can even attack them from the grab with a KO move (like Marth's d-smash).

 

[BDawgPHD]

I'm thinking people are giving Ike too little credit for what he can do, he's slow (Fast enough for a slow character though) but he can pack a punch. And unlike Ganondorf/DK/Etc, he's fast enough to be able to land those hits. Plus his A combo is the greatest thing on the planet. He's not God/Top tier at all due to his speed and some gimp factor, but I'd say high is a pretty good description of his abilities.

A lot of people have really good A combos. Also, DK's range is just as good as Ike's, AND he's faster AND he's just as strong.

but that wouldn't be grabbing twice and then moving on with the match... that's just grabbing twice, then grabbing twice again, and then grabbing twice some more.

i mean, i get what you're saying. it just seems to me, if we can ban wobbling (and we did), we can ban grab whoring on ness/lucas (and part of me hopes we don't... i hate those two).

Yea, I mean using Jigg's rising pound to stall in the air in a way that mindgames the opponent and flubbs edgeguarding isn't banned, just in the way that stalls the match. There's a fine line that judges will determine during the game, and this can easily be applied to Ness/Lucas getting chaingrabbed.....I can see someone accidentally bashing on them once or twice and grabbing them again, especially during the beginning of the stock, but judges can regulate anything that's obvious.

I mean it won't be easy, but it's possible. I don't care because I don't play against cerebral palsy OR fudgehead.

 

[hizzlum]

Can someone please explain why falco is up so high on the tier list? I know that he has the SHL and high priority aerials and good vertical KO power, but he lost the pillaring and has a bad recovery that is easily edgeguarded. I just want to know exatcly why he is placing in the top/high tiers, and i don't think he is a low tier character, but i need to know why he is better than middle

 

[Grunt]

it's honestly not that big of a deal, i dont think it should be banned. the person grabbing ness could mis-hit one of his attacks, and ness will jump out. Like Sonic Wave said, people will get as close to the ban line as possible.

Can someone please explain why falco is up so high on the tier list? I know that he has the SHL and high priority aerials and good vertical KO power, but he lost the pillaring and has a bad recovery that is easily edgeguarded. I just want to know exatcly why he is placing in the top/high tiers, and i don't think he is a low tier character, but i need to know why he is better than middle

DThrow to Dair can pillar, and his recovery is good. :\

oh and it's not just SHL but SHDL

 

[hizzlum]

DThrow to Dair can pillar, and his recovery is good as far as i can tell. :\

His recovery is one of the worst in the game, his b-up wont get him back to the ledge when hit by a normal c stick smash at 100%, its easy to edgeguard , and it barely takes him any distance, also two moves is not much of a pillar, a true pillar is when pc chris get 60% on a dude from zero not two moves that do 15%-25%

 

[Emblem Lord]

Falco has his chain grab, good combos, overall his move list is solid with good tilts, good aerials and good smashes. He has the best camping game out of the entire cast. His shine lets him fight against other campers and makes it very hard for close range fighters to space effectively against him. His forward b lets him get out from tight situations and he has a solid edgeguarding game.

His main weaknesses are that his kill moves are a bit weak, he is one of the eaiser characters to edgeguard, and he is light.

Despite that he is still a beast.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You also have to remember that for most of the characters it's not an infinite, it's just a chainthrow. The characters that have to dash grab to keep them in it will eventually push them to the edge of the stage. In that sense it's just like the DDD chainthrow, or Falco's chainthrow, Or Iceclimbers, ect. and none of those are banned. And if you say "well, this racks too much damage and it's too easy" then let me just say that you'll be hard pressed to find a cut off point between the characters who can only grab them a little bit, and those who push him so slowly that it's almost an infinite. It's easy to see the extreme cases (those who can't regrab at all, and those who have regrab infinites), but how do you differentiate what's in the middle? They all push Ness and Lucas off the stage at different speeds, so which chainthrows would be "fair" and which ones wouldn't be?

 

[Shark Week]

you're overthinking it

there's no need to differentiate like that

 

[Kiwikomix]

Some of the chain throws aren't even that strong and just push Lucas/Ness to the edge quickly with minimal damage. Needless to say, a stronger attack (Snakes f-tilt, for example) can follow out of them, but it's not always an infinite. And it's not like every character can do it.
Besides, it's likely Lucas and Ness will still perform well at tournies. If they win the first matchup and lose the second to a counterpick, they can just counter-counterpick and beat the second character chosen for two out of three. Good Earthbounders will survive, even if tournies end up taking longer.

 

[Exousia]

a true pillar is when pc chris get 60% on a dude from zero not two moves that do 15%-25%

1)PC Chris is a good falco but that doesn't have anything to do with Falco's position on the tier list. And Pillaring is not PC Chris' special move just for him

2)True Pillar = Shield Punishment, Not 0 to 60% on a dude, your thinking of a combo. And even then, it still requires 2 moves: Dair + Shine.

Falco's New Pillar? Meh its not as effective but it still uses 2 moves that punish shielding nicely. D-Throw + Dair(although it is escapable).

His recovery is one of the worst in the game.

Apparently that didn't stop him from achieving God Tier status in the recent Tier list for Melee.

And it certainly hasn't given me a problem in brawl ESPECIALLY since his Phantasm has the same range as Fox's now and is MUCH faster and better to sweetspot the edge than before. True his recovery was the worst in Melee, but it is now one of the better ones in Brawl.

That alone, actually gives him more of a reason to deserve a high tier spot for Brawl.

 

[Aggression]

Fox, Falco, Sonic, Mario, Luigi, Wolf, Metaknight, Peach, Marth, and Pit are definatly high on the tier list.

Shiek, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Olimar, Kirby, Dedede,Jiggly, Falcon, Snake,Ike,Toon Link, Yoshi, Diddy,IC's, and Rob seem to be in the middle of the tier list.

Donkey Kong, Zelda,Ness, Lucas, Lucario, Bowser,Game and Watch,Ike, Wario, and Ganon seem to be on the southern half of the tier list this time around.

The lists I gave are in no order, and are just what I think an image of the first tier list will actually be like.

wow you got that all wrong so hard
sonic/mario/luigi/wolf/peach lower
and just combine the rest of the 2 lower tiers together no one is bad/good enough in brawl to be considered bottom/low/god tier
its all mid/highs
with infinite dodging only characters with projectiles/reflectors seem to be high tier...
earthbounders are too good against certain characters
zelda is insane, lucario is good, bowser... meh hes a heavy FFA guy, ike same as bowser, G&W low? you're on crack, wario higher, ganon is a FFA too, DK as well

honestly the only bad characters ive seen are ZZS/olimar/pkmnT/falcon/ganon
and they're not even that bad even though they're some of the worst
(zzs and olimar because theyre WAYYY too gimpable, ganon is too slow, falcon cant do **** this time around, and pkmn trainer is too unbalanced (char has too much power not enough speed, ivey has too much range not enough speed, squirtle has speed but cant kill...))

 

[Grunt]

no one is bad/good enough in brawl to be considered bottom/low/god tier
its all mid/highs

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight... maybe you should actually play someone good.

@Exousia
Yes, exactally my point.

 

[ShadowLink84]

PC chris is not in PC.
Just refer to him as Chris.

He's a bit of an *** as well. *shrug*

 

[Exousia]

PC chris is not in PC.
Just refer to him as Chris.

He's a bit of an *** as well. *shrug*

That just proves I missed out a lot since my melee days in '06

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ignore this post. It was accicdental

 

[Conda]

Ban grab-release exploits.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That just proves I missed out a lot since my melee days in '06

nah most people just don't know about the goings on.

PC Chris didn't stay in PC long.
He is actually in TEC.
under the name of brothers2grim.

I feel like choking him sometimes.

 

[BDawgPHD]

His recovery is one of the worst in the game, his b-up wont get him back to the ledge when hit by a normal c stick smash at 100%, its easy to edgeguard , and it barely takes him any distance, also two moves is not much of a pillar, a true pillar is when pc chris get 60% on a dude from zero not two moves that do 15%-25%

Umm....we're talking about Brawl, not melee........Falco doesn't have the best recovery, but it's pretty good. It's also not as gimpable anymore both because of the engine and because of length buffs.

 

[sagemoon]

PC Chris is hella nice to everyone. You're not gonna make friends by **** talking him.

Edit: Falcos recovery (at least his up b) is very gimpable. As pit i just fall with a bair and the bair will out prioritize it from above. then i just hit falco under the stage and he dies. The side b recovery is good though