Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Uzima (Uzi)]

I feel that people seem to ignore link since toon link is so much better. (this is my opinion do with it as you wish)

 

[DarkKnight077]

I feel that people seem to ignore link since toon link is so much better. (this is my opinion do with it as you wish)

Link is bleh. Link is still top low though.

 

[Kaffei]

I feel that people seem to ignore link since toon link is so much better. (this is my opinion do with it as you wish)

I agree, I think Toon Link might replace my current main.

 

[SwampFox]

I really wish the poor guy could at least hit Mid. I personally stopped playing him because I have a friend who mains Kirby and dair is my doom. No matter how much i tried, air dodging to hookshot or trying to hit him with my firespin it always seemed inevitable in the end..his jumping and recovery are just too shallow.

 

[Kaffei]

I really wish the poor guy could at least hit Mid. I personally stopped playing him because I have a friend who mains Kirby and dair is my doom. No matter how much i tried, air dodging to hookshot or trying to hit him with my firespin it always seemed inevitable in the end..his jumping and recovery are just too shallow.

i'm sorry.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I really wish the poor guy could at least hit Mid. I personally stopped playing him because I have a friend who mains Kirby and dair is my doom. No matter how much i tried, air dodging to hookshot or trying to hit him with my firespin it always seemed inevitable in the end..his jumping and recovery are just too shallow.

Link's top tier man, I mean cmon.....he's a direct descendant of Jesus ffs. He's the best character in the game!!!

....no seriously, he should have been much better, at least his recovery didn't have to get nerfed. In his defense, the gale boomerang is far better than people say, and is actually relatively useful, for mindgames if nothing else, but it's a fair edgeguarding tool. I'd imagine some really good Link player absolutely owning people with the boomerang....it's good, I swear.

 

[massimo009]

they did nerf his recovery.... and his ariels and his grab and his spin attack : ( They killed him for me

 

[BDawgPHD]

they did nerf his recovery.... and his ariels and his grab and his spin attack : ( They killed him for me

His aerials didn't get nerfed, you just can't combo into/with them, which is the only good way to hit them, so as a result only his bair and nair, and maybe his uair are good. His bair has pretty good knockback, and his uair is a decent juggler if you can land it, which is hard. His sex kick is a sex kick, straight and simple.

And yea, his grab always sucked, and scraaaah got nerfed.

 

[StripesOrBars]

BigDawgPHD you're an idiot.

Please shut up.

 

[thesage]

Ness and Lucas are bottom tier cuz of the cg. T_T

 

[ShadowLink84]

I say Sonic should be mid tier.
His matchs up are overall decent.
I don't understand where you say is recovery is gimpable considering he has his homing attack and Spring. (apparently there have been cases in which its been used twice but its still unconfirmed to my knowledge)
his approach game is decent and his pressure game is among the better ones. he can also approach well.
the only issue his is lack of priority but his game revolves around pressuring and chasing rather than direct combat.

*shrug*

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Sonic's recovery is one of the best in the game. Homming attack, side B, and up B are all really good for recovering, and he can even wall jump and footstool jump after his up B to prevent edgehogging. His recovery should not be an issue.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

^^Sonic's recovery is one of the best in the game. Homming attack, side B, and up B are all really good for recovering, and he can even wall jump and footstool jump after his up B to prevent edgehogging. His recovery should not be an issue.

Agreed.
On a lighter note, after giving it some intense thought, I've decided to take up Sheik in addition to Samus and Zero Suit Samus. Being the second sexiest character in the game and all, I figured there would be a lot more love for Sheik, but since she's no longer the equivalent to Marvel's Cable like she was in Melee, I guess she lost a lot of fans....

 

[Shark Week]

don't forget, you still need to show us your rack.

 

[smashmanic123]

^^ lol

10chars

 

[katanagash]

Okay I've updated what I think the tier list is going to have as far as each character is concerned (order does not matter, just the category)

Top:

King Dedede
Lucas
Pit
Olimar
Toon Link
Lucario

High:

Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Meta Knight
Squirtle
Ike
Snake

Middle:


Mario
DK
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Luigi
Ness
Peach
Bowser
Sheik
Ice Climbers
Marth
Falco
Wario
Sonic
R.O.B.
Wolf

Low:

Samus
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Ivysaur
Charizard

 

[katanagash]

Ness and Lucas are bottom tier cuz of the cg. T_T

Okay I do not believe what I am seeing. Lucas being bottom tier is not happenin. In fact he deserves to be top tier because of how easily he can spam with his PK fire. And have you seen his ridiculous strength? He has crazy aerials that will send you flying like your nothin.

Now Ness on the other hand I can't disagree with you too much. But instead of low/bottom tier, he'll probably be on the lower half of the mid tier.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

WOW. there's a metric ****-ton of things wrong with that list.

ivysaur and charizard are both way higher than that. rob, wolf, falco, and marth are all generally considered to be top/high tier. wario and ic's are better than that, bowser and pikachu are better than that, fox and dk are better than that. ike's too high, snake is easily top tier. that's not even debatable. dedede, lucas, and lucario are not even close to being worthy of top tier.

i just pointed out the obvious things, other people would argue with you on the smaller details like pit in top.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

lol.


You must be kidding. Lucas wasn't even considered Top Tier BEFORE the Glitch was found. With the exception of maybe Toon Link, none of those characters Top in your list would be Top Tier. Snake and Metaknight hands down should be at the top of all lists. How you think Marth, ROB, Falco, Pika and the ICs as mid only is absurd. Also Ike is heavily overrated, he's likely Mid-Low/Low Tier because of how **** easy it is to figure out his game.


Even if you were just guessing which Tier the respective characters would be in, this is WAY off.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Agreed.
On a lighter note, after giving it some intense thought, I've decided to take up Sheik in addition to Samus and Zero Suit Samus. Being the second sexiest character in the game and all, I figured there would be a lot more love for Sheik, but since she's no longer the equivalent to Marvel's Cable like she was in Melee, I guess she lost a lot of fans....

Yea, Sheik is hot, I always knew she was a chick....now she has boobs.....

....speaking of boobs.......

anyway, let's discuss DK. People keep putting him in low tier, despite the fact that he is

a) insane
b) winning tournaments

He has range and speed in most of his tilts and his jab, a few of his attacks kill at around 80%, but I'd say that he realistically kills at around the low 100% range. His only weakness is susceptibility to projectiles due to his size, that he can be juggled a bit at low percentages, and that his vertical recovery is aids. Otherwise, his size works in his favor since his aerial range is ginormous, making it possible to chase people in the air even if they airdodge in some cases. His bthrow kills off the side of FD at around 120% or so, and his cargo throw off the side of the stage is a fun way to gimp, and since grabbing is relatively easy, you'll either be throwing for more damage, or gimping

On that note, cargo throw off side of stage to footstool to recover ftw

I say DK should be high tier at least, if nothing else he should be at the bottom of high tier.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Yea, Sheik is hot, I always knew she was a chick....now she has boobs.....

....speaking of boobs.......

Wish you could tell that to the yaoi fangirls who insist that Sheik is a man.
And I'm not going to show my bubz to the world just yet. I need to fine-tune my appearance, you know?

 

[BDawgPHD]

Wish you could tell that to the yaoi fangirls who insist that Sheik is a man.
And I'm not going to show my bubz to the world just yet. I need to fine-tune my appearance, you know?

I have what you call "men's intuition", so apparently I just knew right away that sheik was a girl. Also, keeping this in mind, it makes Marth out to be straight, although still pretty metro.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I have what you call "men's intuition", so apparently I just knew right away that sheik was a girl. Also, keeping this in mind, it makes Marth out to be straight, although still pretty metro.

My jury is out on Marth. Apparently he's a total pimp in the Fire Emblem games, but...the man does wear a tiara.....

 

[Kiwikomix]

let's discuss DK. People keep putting him in low tier, despite the fact that he is

a) insane
b) winning tournaments

He has range and speed in most of his tilts and his jab, a few of his attacks kill at around 80%, but I'd say that he realistically kills at around the low 100% range. His only weakness is susceptibility to projectiles due to his size, that he can be juggled a bit at low percentages, and that his vertical recovery is aids. Otherwise, his size works in his favor since his aerial range is ginormous, making it possible to chase people in the air even if they airdodge in some cases. His bthrow kills off the side of FD at around 120% or so, and his cargo throw off the side of the stage is a fun way to gimp, and since grabbing is relatively easy, you'll either be throwing for more damage, or gimping

On that note, cargo throw off side of stage to footstool to recover ftw

I say DK should be high tier at least, if nothing else he should be at the bottom of high tier.

Like you said, DK's vertical recovery is nothing. That means one footstool jump = doom. Cargo can't DK-cide well since it doesn't hold them long enough until high percentages when he could get a normal kill anyway. Although he's by no means slow, he's not at all fast. When all is said and done, he's a heavy character with a sub-par recovery, and this hurts him a lot when combined with his ability to be comboed quickly and easily.
Besides these disadvantages, he does have great range and decent speed and priority in his tilts and aerials. His specials are somewhat awful in most situations, but donkey punch is still powerful. He's got decent speed for a heavy guy. I'd say he's tied with Boozer on heavy characters.

 

[BDawgPHD]

My jury is out on Marth. Apparently he's a total pimp in the Fire Emblem games, but...the man does wear a tiara.....

In his defense, he grabs people by the neck like a man

 

[BDawgPHD]

Like you said, DK's vertical recovery is nothing. That means one footstool jump = doom. Cargo can't DK-cide well since it doesn't hold them long enough until high percentages when he could get a normal kill anyway. Although he's by no means slow, he's not at all fast. When all is said and done, he's a heavy character with a sub-par recovery, and this hurts him a lot when combined with his ability to be comboed quickly and easily.
Besides these disadvantages, he does have great range and decent speed and priority in his tilts and aerials. His specials are somewhat awful in most situations, but donkey punch is still powerful. He's got decent speed for a heavy guy. I'd say he's tied with Boozer on heavy characters.

In theory, his downB is great on anyone that's on the ground, i.e. most brawl players, and it has decent range. I only use it once in a while, but I'm glad I do use it....I'd bet it would eat through shields, and just pressing it once lets off a nice quick one.

Also, a lot of characters will get gimped by a footstool. Not ones like MK, Pikachu, or Kirby, but most others will get gimped in such a situation. But because of all the added defensive options of Brawl, it's harder to get DK off the stage, and a good player won't get comboed silly, even though DK is more susceptible to getting hit by stuff. It's **** near impossible to edgehog his upB unless the DK is a total moron, or is grasping for vertical recovery, and even in that case if DK has enough height to recover, there isn't any invincibility long enough to edgehog him.

Also, did you know that DK can cargo carry people and then throw them into the side of stages like FD and stage spike them? It's pretty easy, especially at anything above 70%. Because his aerials are a lot faster, particularly his bair and uair, and because his dair spikes, and because he has even more range than Bowser, DK is just generally great. Also, DK has a lot of good matchups against some of the other higher tiered characters. I know he has a good matchup against Kirby, probably against Luigi, probably against Pit, I'd say definitely against Fox, and most of the people in mid and below.....even people with projectiles.

Don't forget that most of this isn't just theory, it's being put into practice right now.

 

[katanagash]

WOW. there's a metric ****-ton of things wrong with that list.

ivysaur and charizard are both way higher than that. rob, wolf, falco, and marth are all generally considered to be top/high tier. wario and ic's are better than that, bowser and pikachu are better than that, fox and dk are better than that. ike's too high, snake is easily top tier. that's not even debatable. dedede, lucas, and lucario are not even close to being worthy of top tier.

i just pointed out the obvious things, other people would argue with you on the smaller details like pit in top.

I did forget to mention something. I based my predictions on the tournament winning characters I have seen. Obviously you have no clue how ridiculous Lucario is. Almost every tournament winner that uses Lucario camps (a.k.a plays like a girl) and rolls like crazy. Dedede is almost the same except he's slow. He can spam damage and chain grab like a b**ch. I'm not going to go talk more about the mid and low tier lists, but I will defend my idea of the top/high tier lists.

 

[Kiwikomix]

DK's cargo throw sounds pretty similar to Kirby's stick-under-stage inhale. I'll have to watch out for that.

Edgehogging is fairly useless in Brawl except against tether characters, so I wouldn't be trying to use it against DK anytime soon.

I also don't really see how he has a good matchup on Kirby (range is the only thing he has on Kirby in the first place, plus Kirby destroys heavy characters) or Pit (arrows aren't everything, but they're sure going to stall a DK for quite some time, and sideB racks up damage on heavier guys).

 

[BDawgPHD]

DK's cargo throw sounds pretty similar to Kirby's stick-under-stage inhale. I'll have to watch out for that.

Edgehogging is fairly useless in Brawl except against tether characters, so I wouldn't be trying to use it against DK anytime soon.

I also don't really see how he has a good matchup on Kirby (range is the only thing he has on Kirby in the first place, plus Kirby destroys heavy characters) or Pit (arrows aren't everything, but they're sure going to stall a DK for quite some time, and sideB racks up damage on heavier guys).

DK completely outranges Pit in just about everything, and Pit is a lightweight. The arrows are really only good for air chasing IMO, as a camping tool they're not very effective....they can stall for a little bit, but that's all....they won't even do much damage, if any. sideB is easily DIed out of even if you do get hit by it. As far as Kirby, the range advantage is a big deal since Kirby lacks a projectile, and Kirby is also light. But how does Kirby destroy heavy characters exactly? I know he's good, but this is the first I'm hearing of this.

Also, I edgehog all the time, it's all about timing, and knowing when you can or can't do it of course. It's just nearly impossible against DK unless you're a tether character, and in that case he can just go for the stage.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well I wouldn't quite say Edgehogging is useless. I've gimped many people after intense WOPs and they would have come back if I hadn't grabbed the ledge.


It's still a very useful technique, albeit some character can negate it with their special recoverys

 

[Dark Sonic]

DK completely outranges Pit in just about everything, and Pit is a lightweight. The arrows are really only good for air chasing IMO, as a camping tool they're not very effective....they can stall for a little bit, but that's all....they won't even do much damage, if any. sideB is easily DIed out of even if you do get hit by it. As far as Kirby, the range advantage is a big deal since Kirby lacks a projectile, and Kirby is also light. But how does Kirby destroy heavy characters exactly? I know he's good, but this is the first I'm hearing of this.

Also, I edgehog all the time, it's all about timing, and knowing when you can or can't do it of course. It's just nearly impossible against DK unless you're a tether character, and in that case he can just go for the stage.

Kirby has insane 0-40+ grab combos on larger/heavier characters. He's also very good at edgeguarding with his high priority dair. His uair is good for juggling the heavier guys, and his bair is like Jigglypuffs wall of pain. His fair racks decent damage as well.

His hammer is pretty usefull for edgeguarding with it's duration and range, his down B got a big speed and powerbuff, making it more usefull for breaking through attacks (especially on slanted platforms). All of his smashes are good (not amazing, bt good none the less) and bigger characters are simply bigger targets.

Don't have much info on his tilts though. But in general I'd say it's the easy low percent grab combos and great edgeguarding that hurts the heavy guys the most.

 

[Kiwikomix]

^^What he said.
I don't think I'd like a DK vs. Kirby match, though. Like Bowser, it's often seeing who can get the first kill and then suiciding the rest of the stocks out.
I dunno, Kirby vs DK seems neutral to me.
And, for the record, edgehogging =/= edgeguarding. Edgeguarding is keeping someone from coming back in general and may involve edgehogging, which is just holding the ledge.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Kirby has insane 0-40+ grab combos on larger/heavier characters. He's also very good at edgeguarding with his high priority dair. His uair is good for juggling the heavier guys, and his bair is like Jigglypuffs wall of pain. His fair racks decent damage as well.

His hammer is pretty usefull for edgeguarding with it's duration and range, his down B got a big speed and powerbuff, making it more usefull for breaking through attacks (especially on slanted platforms). All of his smashes are good (not amazing, bt good none the less) and bigger characters are simply bigger targets.

Don't have much info on his tilts though. But in general I'd say it's the easy low percent grab combos and great edgeguarding that hurts the heavy guys the most.

I've used Kirby before, and only noobs that don't airdodge get combo'd by his uair. I'd imagine his bair is much of the same, although spamming it on someone that's big and in the air is gonna force something to happen, most likely an airdodge. I don't know about these grab combos, but most of them seem like something that can be DI'd/spotdodged. His hammer is pretty sweet, but I haven't used it solidly for edgeguarding, I'd imagine it would be a wall of omgwtfitscomingatme!

^^What he said.
I don't think I'd like a DK vs. Kirby match, though. Like Bowser, it's often seeing who can get the first kill and then suiciding the rest of the stocks out.
I dunno, Kirby vs DK seems neutral to me.
And, for the record, edgehogging =/= edgeguarding. Edgeguarding is keeping someone from coming back in general and may involve edgehogging, which is just holding the ledge.

I concur, and I do both very well.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, Kirby has the recovery to make it back, so DK won't be cargo-ciding much in this match. Kirbycides work wonders though, with DK's horrible vertical recovery.

I've used Kirby before, and only noobs that don't airdodge get combo'd by his uair.

Juggling=/=comboing. The uair is fast enough that even if you airdodge I can do another one when your airdodge ends, keeping you in the air anyway.

I'd imagine his bair is much of the same, although spamming it on someone that's big and in the air is gonna force something to happen, most likely an airdodge.

Wall of Pain=/=combo. Of course they can airdodge. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter because the bair ends before the airdodge does, so I can do it again and hit you out of the airdodge. It's really good for edgeguarding, considering Kirby has 5 jumps to work with.

I don't know about these grab combos, but most of them seem like something that can be DI'd/spotdodged.

Grab combos imply that you actually got grabbed already, so no spotdodging. No DI is unpunishable, so it's just a matter of reacting to which way they DI. D-throw allows a regrab at low percents, and f-throw combos into fair and uair. Fair at low percents allows a regrab. Intermixing these nets you between 30 and 50% depending on how good you are at reacting to DI.

His hammer is pretty sweet, but I haven't used it solidly for edgeguarding, I'd imagine it would be a wall of omgwtfitscomingatme!.

Yeah, it's pretty ****.

 

[Grunt]

Agreed.
On a lighter note, after giving it some intense thought, I've decided to take up Sheik in addition to Samus and Zero Suit Samus. Being the second sexiest character in the game and all, I figured there would be a lot more love for Sheik, but since she's no longer the equivalent to Marvel's Cable like she was in Melee, I guess she lost a lot of fans....

Cable is ridiculous...
I tried to play as shiek for a while, but her lack of kill moves made me turn away...

 

[BDawgPHD]

Well, Kirby has the recovery to make it back, so DK won't be cargo-ciding much in this match. Kirbycides work wonders though, with DK's horrible vertical recovery.

It's not Cargo-cide, it's cargo-buttsecks. He carries people via cargo, walks off and throws them into the stage, spiking them, and most likely killing them if it's anywhere above 70%. He can then jump and upB to recover. Sometimes you might lose too much altitude to get back if you don't know how to do it, which is when you be pro like me and get a sweet footstool off your fresh meat

 

[Kiwikomix]

Haha, someone's modest.
Easy move there, just pick Smashville or Lylat Cruise for the stage.

 

[The_Dyne]

I have found the cargo throw -> stage spike very useful; the only time my opponent teched, they were Ivysaur. XD Also sometimes I footstool an unsuspecting MK for pwnage. XD

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's not Cargo-cide, it's cargo-buttsecks. He carries people via cargo, walks off and throws them into the stage, spiking them, and most likely killing them if it's anywhere above 70%. He can then jump and upB to recover. Sometimes you might lose too much altitude to get back if you don't know how to do it, which is when you be pro like me and get a sweet footstool off your fresh meat

And if they tech knowing that you're going to do this? It's not that hard because DK's through isn't exactly this one frame attack (and people even tech'd Fox's shine in melee. This is nothing). Techjump to dair would be the most humiliating but awesome KO ever.

Kirby ciding however is so much better as it is not percentage specific and can be done on almost any stage (while yours can't be done if there's no wall at the ledge).

 

[BDawgPHD]

And if they tech knowing that you're going to do this? It's not that hard because DK's through isn't exactly this one frame attack (and people even tech'd Fox's shine in melee. This is nothing). Techjump to dair would be the most humiliating but awesome KO ever.

Kirby ciding however is so much better as it is not percentage specific and can be done on almost any stage (while yours can't be done if there's no wall at the ledge).

It's not like it's his main method of killing or anything. Also, Marth's dair in Melee wasn't particularly difficult to avoid in Melee unless it was combo'd into, but knowing that it was a possibility brought that fear factor into play. Most people won't deliberately get grabbed so they can tech and turn the kill around....most will stay away from DK and go toward the middle of the stage. If they try to knock DK off the stage, he can escape, and he'll be in a good position to make an attempt. If a player starts to tech it a lot, you can always start mind-****ing.

As I said, it's not his only kill options.