• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official BBR Tier List v7

Status
Not open for further replies.

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
Mewtwo doesn't have a "consistent" counter meaning that there is no Pokemon that can counter every one of Mewtwo's movesets. That much is true. But the same could be said about Tyranitar who in 386 has at least 3 viable movesets, each of them countering those Pokemon that counter another of Tyranitar's moveset.

For example: the "original" Tyranitar moveset had Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Rockslide and either Taunt or Substitute. This moveset generally used to be countered with Claydol, Donphan, Swampert, Flygon, Milotic and Suicune. But people started to mix in different movesets for Tyranitar, one which uses Substitute, Focus Punch, Crunch and Thunderbolt - this moveset was more based on special attack power and countered literally all of the Pokemon mentioned before at least to the extent that you wouldn't switch them in against that Tyranitar. Now you've had to find a direct counter to that moveset, which - somewhat surprisingly - turned out to be Heracross. But only if the Tyranitar decided to not use Flamethrower over Thunderbolt, in which case a water tank is the better choice. But how do you know? There is no consistent counter to that - the most reliable thing you have is switching in Dugtrio but that only works if Tyranitar doesn't have an active Substitute while at the same time one of your Pokemon has just died [because that's the only situation in which you can actually switch it in against Tyranitar]. So essentially, it becomes a guessing game between countering the Dragon Dancer moveset and the various SubPunch / mixed sweeper sets. The only Pokemon that legit can be switched into all of Tyrantiars viable movesets is Swampert and even that is not a good idea in all situations.

Cases like that exist for Jirachi, who can change up his moveset to circumvent his counters as well [which are Claydol and Steelix] and even Pokemon like Salamence or the underrated Dragonite could do that. Most people would just not think outside of the box and use standard movesets without understanding the how and why of this game. That's why even in a more advanced metagame people would either resort to SkarmBliss or complain about it.



You're right for the most part but you overemphasize the importance of speed in this case. It's about being able to generally outlive Psychic via resistances / immunity and being able to hit back hard enough to reliably destroy Mewtwo's substitute. This is easier achieved than a lot of people think. Actually, every single of Mewtwo's sets has a clear counter. Psychic, Calm Mind, Substitute are basically a must-have for Mewto in 386 so its counter depends on which he uses as his 4th move. Flamethrower?Beaten by Tyranitar. Ice Beam? Beaten by Metagross, even Jirachi could be iffy. Thunderbolt? Beaten by Claydol.
It should have at least been tried.

:059:
Swampert counters both the D Dance and Tyraniboah sets. Shedinja can counter most Mewtwo sets
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
"It should have at least been tried" is a bit silly.

Every team would have had a Mewtwo. Bar None lest they weren't actually trying to win. Having mewtwo on your team in the 386 environment is a complete no brainer. Yes, skarmory/bliss were pretty much every team as well, but Pokemon meta has always been iffy about all encompassing sweepers over all encompassing duets wallers/stallers.
 

Aaven

Vagabond With Flowers ~
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
483
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I don't follow this thread often so I have to ask, is there a Tier List v8 in the making or will there ever be one? If so I'm assuming that ZSS will jump positively a few spots at least on the Tier List due to Salem's performance?
 

Luco

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
9,232
Location
The isle of venom, Australia
NNID
dracilus
3DS FC
2638-1462-5558
Yeah I think it's almost a given that ZSS and possibly Marth (honestly not sure with him) will rise, ICs might rise but tournament success has been kinda eh lately so I dunno.

But in answer to your question, yes they are working on a tier list v8, just not before they do a MU chart v3 which is currently being worked on now.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Swampert counters both the D Dance and Tyraniboah sets. Shedinja can counter most Mewtwo sets
Shedinja would be incredibly hard to get out in the OU metagame though. Spikes would ruin it, same with Sandstorm. Flamethrower would likely be a common coverage move for M2 in OU, same with the tradeoffs for Ice Beam/Thunderbolt (I dunno why Gheb has a boner for Psychic, coverage on it is still pretty poor in OU and only really seems to help him vs Waters if you're scared to run Tbolt)


Mewtwo should stay out of OU because even if you can situationally counter all of his sets, you take a huge hit if you incorrectly guess which set or coverage move he's picked. He can set up on the Special and Physical side. He can be an all out attacker on either side with pretty amazing coverage. There isn't any Pokemon in OU that outspeeds him (Ninjask and Electrode below, but they won't stop Mewtwo). He can go beefier, support his team with Toxic Reflect Light Screen, he can go his own situational builds like Sub Punch or Taunt for Phazers or Barrier. Hell, if you want to piss someone off, you can even troll around with Selfdestruct.


Mewtwo being speedy, hard hitting from the get go, very solid coverage, and very good flexibility in sets means that the metagame would revolve specifically around using and countering him. It's super duper obvious lol.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Why is Psychic mandatory when it has such poor coverage? Running 2 coverage moves sounds smarter.
Maximum coverage for a special sweeper is achieved by combining Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, which would in Mewtwo's case be added up with Substitute and Calm Mind. It also needs almost all of its EVs invested into HP so it reaches 404 HP - otherwise Mewtwo is countered by Blissey. Mewtwo will also need a LOT of speed because otherwise Aerdactyl could outspeed it and Mewtwo needs enough EVs to outspeed Dugtrio anyways. That means that Mewtwo MUST have a nature that boosts Speed and enough EV to make sure it outspeeds Dugtrio in any case. This means that Mewtwo will "only" have about ~330 Sp. Atk with no STAB move. That moveset would lose to Snorlax.
For comparison's sake: Standard Zapdos has more Sp. Atk [~380] than that Mewtwo set and a STAB on Thunderbolt [137.5 base power]. Mewtwo without Psychic *and* less Sp. Atk will hit considerably less hard than Zapdos and even Zapdos can beat Snorlax only when there's a sandstream. Since Snorlax has Shadow Ball Mewtwo needs to have used Calm Mind once, have an active Substitute and an active Sandstream to beat Snorlax.
[Such movesets are also a bit vulnerable to TrickBand, a tactic that has gotten lost along the way a bit but is actually perfect to crap on special sweepers that depend on Calm Mind boosts].

Swampert counters both the D Dance and Tyraniboah sets. Shedinja can counter most Mewtwo sets
Swampert can soft-counter a lot of Tyranitar's sets but even then it's extremely risky to switch it in against T'tar because that gives him a free Substitute and - since Tyranitar is faster than Swampert - you give him 2 free Crunches. For that to work out you'd have to spread EVs across Swampert's defensive stats absolutely perfect [which is impossible because you don't actually know the offensive spread of T'tar] while also giving him enough offensive power to OHKO T'tar or be fast enough to hit him with Earthquake before T'tar can use his 2nd Crunch. It can work but it'd require knowledge over the T'tar set that you can't actually have. It'd be like switching Blissey into a Mewtwo because it may actually have less than 404 HP.

Shedinja as a Mewtwo counter is entirely theoretical. Nobody uses that Pokemon because Tyranitar's Sandstream and Skarmory's Spikes instantly kill it which means that there is no way that Shedinja could ever actually come into play.

"It should have at least been tried" is a bit silly.

Every team would have had a Mewtwo. Bar None lest they weren't actually trying to win. Having mewtwo on your team in the 386 environment is a complete no brainer. Yes, skarmory/bliss were pretty much every team as well, but Pokemon meta has always been iffy about all encompassing sweepers over all encompassing duets wallers/stallers.
1.) Even with Mewtwo legal, there would have been a whole bunch of situations in which Jirachi would have straight-up been the better option. This may actually apply to Zapdos as well even though to a much lesser degree.

2.) Zapdos and Jirachi are virtually the only special sweepers that have actually been used. Despite Sceptile's, Alakazam's or Starmie's labels as "overused" Pokemon you would never find them on a team that won tourneys. Even Raikou fell out of favor quickly. If you wanted to win and were to add a special sweeper in your team you'd take either Zapdos or Jirachi.

3.) About 90% of the teams at the peak of the 386 metagame had a Tyranitar as their main sweeper. The only times somebody would use Salamence, Gyarados or Metagross instead of Tyranitar was for defensive purposes. Tyranitar was for all intents and purposes the "all encompassing sweeper" you are talking about.

:059:
 

Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
17,322
Location
WeJo, Utah
NNID
ZzgashiZzShy
3DS FC
1521-3678-2980
Its hilarious how Gheb actually believes Mewtwo shouldnt be uber, lmaooooo
 

Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
17,322
Location
WeJo, Utah
NNID
ZzgashiZzShy
3DS FC
1521-3678-2980
Oh, so we're taking a trip back to kindergarten now with the childish insults? Better stop your namecalling or I might tattle to the teacher on you, and if you arent careful, she might even call your mommy. ;p
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
I apologize for having a brain of my own. From now on I will follow the path of being a sheep and side with whatever opinion I'm told to agree with without questioning it. Everything that doesn't follow conventional opinions will be laughed at from now on. Life's easy when you're a tool.

:059:
 

pidgezero_one

((((((((((( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) gotta go fast!
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,458
Location
Toronto
NNID
pidgezero_one
3DS FC
3222-5601-4071
wow, even I'm looking at this thread and wondering "holy **** when will this get back on topic"

I have failed my duties
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
6,345
Location
New York, NY
3DS FC
5429-7210-5657
Let's talk about me, as I am as relevant to this thread as Pokemon. The only character I play well is ZSS and I need to play another character. Recommend things.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Mewtwo has more than just Calm Mind for a viable set. And if we're talking about the negative aspects of trying to sweep with him on the Special side, it's not all roses for Jirachi either. He doesn't even have the option of trying to outspeed Dugtrio, and good luck ever speed tying with other 100 base speed Pokemon since he's almost always speccing for 404 Subs and has to decide whether to try and live vs Dugtrio or put some EV's into SA because he hits miserably weak until he has CM boosts. Modest, Maxed SA Jirachi can't even hit as hard as a neutral natured 0 EV Mewtwo (the Zapdos comparison is fair though). Which Pokemon out of Jirachi and Mewtwo is more frightening to deal with if they are allowed to setup on Blissey? Which of the two Pokemon is more capable of making situational changes to their moveset and EV spread to get by specific counters? Which of the two Pokemon is more frightening right off the bat trying to hit hard? I'm just saying, if you expect people not to put in work to counter Jirachi, and instead use all their might to stop Mewtwo, then ofc it's gonna look a bit skewed lol. (Also for Zapdos, if you run Modest or less than full EV's, you allow other base 100 speed Pokemon to come along and stop you, barring Agility ofc)


If you aren't happy with Mewtwo as a Special Sweeper, then try a Physical set. Try taunt or Sub Punch or xyz set. That's the beauty of Mewtwo, and what easily puts him over OU imo. Even if you have an answer to him on the Special Side, I'd love to see Zapdos or Jirachi be as effective or frightening as him on the Physical side. Zapdos has a somewhat gimmicky CB set, but I don't think you'd argue that's as good as what Mewtwo can pull off. Want to support your team? He has a set for that, you can run Toxic or T-Wave or Reflect/Screen/Barrier (Zapdos can also do this sorta, but has a harder time healing)
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
I mean, you DID mention Shedinja vs Mewtwo even though Spikes and Sandstorm continually hamper him in OU. I have Gheb's side on that one completely, that was silly lol.

DPPt was arguably his weakest Gen because Choice Scarf came around and some of the Physical/Special move splits made it easier to hit him hard for certain Pokemon (Crunch and Pursuit being Physical as the main two moves that come to mind). But that's DPPt, we're talking bout 386
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
Now i see why gheb avoided this conversation for a full month. I dont even follow pokemon and I can tell hes getting blown out of the water right now.

:phone:
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Ubers is fine, although you're better off sending him vs someone who will *never* have the coverage move for Shedinja like Kyogre lol.

Now i see why gheb avoided this conversation for a full month. I dont even follow pokemon and I can tell hes getting blown out of the water right now.

:phone:
I'm not sure what you mean. He's not getting ***** lol. And he was right on Alakazam/Starmie/Raikou plummeting in usage, because being a strong Special Attacker but failing to get passed Blissey is a no no lol. Jirachi soared quite a bit because he was reliable to get past her and usually Snorlax. The only question with Jirachi usually is whether he would be EV'd to survive Dugtrio coming in, and whether or not he was using Sub or Wish. Calm Mind + Coverage was a given.
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
Maybe but that could be said a out most counters. Besides, if you have him for Kyogre, might as well use him against. Mewtwo

:phone:
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
You have to look at other Pokemon when comparing Mewtwo to them, Espy.
 

pidgezero_one

((((((((((( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) gotta go fast!
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,458
Location
Toronto
NNID
pidgezero_one
3DS FC
3222-5601-4071
Let's talk about me, as I am as relevant to this thread as Pokemon. The only character I play well is ZSS and I need to play another character. Recommend things.
My roster is :dededebrawl: :jigglypuffbrawl: :kirbybrawl: :lucasbrawl: :nessbrawl: :peachbrawl: :pikachubrawl: :zeldabrawl:. I only use good characters so pick one and ur good
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
Gheb's thoughts are that "It could've been given a chance".
It's an opinion, so he's pretty much entitled to it.

The issue with Mewtwo is that his move coverage and base stats are practically superior to every other OU pokemon (like, he isn't a better special wall than blissey, but lol, he could be used as one), he outdoes all the other special sweepers.. His physical stats are high enough to be frightening and he would be a potent physical sweeper as well. His utility / support for a team would make him pretty scary as a starter as well (Azelf on steroids).
I think Gheb's opinion is a little bit misplaced, if Tyranitar had 3 viable move sets in OU 386 then Mewtwo would probably have close to 15.
 

Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
17,322
Location
WeJo, Utah
NNID
ZzgashiZzShy
3DS FC
1521-3678-2980
I mean, I understand hes saying it couldve been given a chance, but like you just said, Mewtwo has around 15 viable sets in OU. Take a Poke with higher base stats than every other OU, a Poke with over a dozen options, and a Poke that can literally run a set on almost every position on a team, and its blatantly obvious that OU would revolve all around countering Mewtwo. While its true, you can counter Mewtwo, Mewtwo is WAY harder to counter than any OU due to his plethora of options. So while Mewtwo could in fact be beat in OU, the meta game would be waaaay too focused on Mewtwo to make it a logical choice. So yes, while it IS an opinion, its a flawed opinion.
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
I think Gheb's opinion isn't misplaced at all. Thinking outside of the box is generally a concept people should try lmao. Ghebpinion (The act of considering your opinion right over everyone else unless results can somehow indicate otherwise) is one of my favorite mindsets because I have the same way of thinking (And making people feel salty/argue idiocy is always funny).

:018:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom