Official BBR Tier List v7

[Mr-R]

I agree with marth-peach being -1, I've played like all the top peaches (cept illmatic). Guess I'm mentally handicapped too.

 

[DMG]

I think Peach beats Wario, and I'm definitely in the minority opinion on that one lol. Then again, Wario has certain close debatable MU's that I kinda "sell out" on in favor of better MU's. Dedede I use Diddy for, and Peach I use Marth for.


I'd have Peach as -1 with Wario, Marth at -2. She's basically a less capable Marth vs Wario, but gets away with it due to her ability to quickly reset walls and get to the ground with float canceling.

 

[Cassio]

Bucking bandwagons or popular opinion tends to get you called stupid.

Maharba think outside the confines of Texas or stop trolling. Illmatic has opinions and results worthy of respect but so do others.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Whatever, dude. A lot of Wario mains think that Peach beats Wario, too, and that doesn't mean they're right, either. Just...don't approach her once you get the lead. It's not hard. It might even be relatively even, but it's not clearly in Peach's favor.

Also, disagreeing with popular opinion about a matchup that never happens in tournament play is grounds for being considered the most ignorant post? Ridiculous.

Don't approach her once you get the lead? What you're sayinv implies that the Wario must advise more caution than the peach in order to nab the win. That sounds to me like the Wario is at a disatvantage, however slight.

 

[NickRiddle]

Not approaching does not imply a losing MU. For Wario to beat Zelda, he just needs to get a lead and run. All that means is the opponent cannot deal with running as well as they can deal with approaching.

 

[Player-1]

I'd say every char in the game they have to invoke more caution against ICs, but they don't beat every char in the game

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario also lives longer on average than Peach, and landing a Waft on her isn't especially difficult compared to most of the cast. He has many, many opportunities to get the lead.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i would believe you reflex except for the part where you were to scared and straight up refused to go wario against illmatic seeing as how he's ***** all of your kind. prove me wrong at whobo if you really think wario wins the MU

@mr.r

you at least admit that marth beats peach. still at the very least a -2.

 

[Tesh]

Not approaching does not imply a losing MU. For Wario to beat Zelda, he just needs to get a lead and run. All that means is the opponent cannot deal with running as well as they can deal with approaching.

Being able to run away and being forced to run away are different. Wario can get close to Zelda and mess her up just fine, as can many other characters.

Even with ICs, I don't think the characters that can't compete close range win the matchup.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Funny, for a second I thought that Reflex had double posted.

Not approaching does not imply a losing MU. For Wario to beat Zelda, he just needs to get a lead and run. All that means is the opponent cannot deal with running as well as they can deal with approaching.

Learn something new everyday I suppose. I'll certainly have to join you all in theorycrafting more often. Pardon if I sound ignorant at first, I'm still trying to learn as much as I can about the game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i would believe you reflex except for the part where you were to scared and straight up refused to go wario against illmatic seeing as how he's ***** all of your kind. prove me wrong at whobo if you really think wario wins the MU

I don't really give a **** about who he's beaten or what anyone else thinks about me. I don't know anything about his Wario experience. People keep saying that I was afraid to use Wario against him, but that was the last thing going on in my mind after I beat Vinnie's Peach convincingly in Winners bracket. I used PT first game against Illmatic as a demo for CoonTail who wanted to see the matchup play out at a high level. I wasn't particularly confident about it until I took a dump on him, then decided to stick with it for Game 2, as well, where the same thing happened.

Why would I bother making a point to Peach players at APEX when I could just win with little trouble as PT? I'm not so prideful as to think that there's no way I'm wrong about the Wario/Peach match. If I don't get friendlies in prior, you can bet that I'm definitely going to try to do the same at WHOBO, and if it doesn't work out, then we'll see how Wario goes.

If you think that I'm scared of the matchup or talking out of my ***, then let that console you while I leave it alone. There's literally no reason for me to argue the point more than I already have.

 

[C.J.]

Reflex, other than just getting a lead and running away, what other aspects of the MU do you think people overrate/other things why you disagree with popular opinion.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

I like butterflies

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex, other than just getting a lead and running away, what other aspects of the MU do you think people overrate/other things why you disagree with popular opinion.

It's mostly about how capable Peach is of damaging Wario if Wario doesn't do anything risky. Turnips are somewhat risky and can be used against her well (though usually they're not of much use). Having a turnip or tire prevents her from comfortably pulling turnips and/or glide tossing while in your space.

Recovery is pretty uncomfortable for Peach in the matchup. She eats B-Airs and any projectiles Wario has while offstage almost for free, and she is quite vulnerable to Waft. Throwing the bike makes her struggle while there, and keeping the bike onstage near the edge is a good alternative, too, since it limits her options off the ledge. Ledge jump -> N-Air lags on the bike, which allows for an easier punish. Ledgehop -> float -> land is similarly hampered, because Jab and F-Tilt commands afterward cause her to pick up the bike, and her Dash Attack and D-Smash both lag on the bike.

She also gets juggled pretty well; her pitiful airdodge makes it so that she has to guess whether she should protect herself from B-Air or U-Air. D-Air is also easy to Waft her out of in that position, so she can't expect to wall Wario well that way.

It mostly comes down to the fact that when Wario can deal damage in the matchup, he deals a LOT of damage on average per situation. While Peach's best point in the matchup (IMO) is her great ability to make Wario take damage while he tries to get in, those are usually small individual hits that put both players in neutral position afterward. Combined with Peach getting KO'd at significantly lower percents than Wario, it's difficult to convince me that Wario loses the matchup. I could see even, but +1 Peach is a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well Mic_128 i do like butterflies. however you can suck my bic lighter and eat my cashews for fudging up my amazing trolling you fun killing infracting life lacking lacky.

now don't f it up this time

damn guzzle that salt boy

edit:

get a life

 

[ぱみゅ]

edit:

get a life

Oh, the irony.


Does anybody remember how this argument began?
iirc, it was something about people being called dumb for disagreeing with majority.

The same happened with the Marth-Pikachu MU when it was announced as 0 by the BBR. Everybody laughed, but then everybody realized how Marth can be baited and punished, and that Pikachu has the mobility to do that; plus if Marth just overdoes his retreating stuff, he'll eventually get cornered and punished even harder.

I personally still don't see the MU as 0, I'd call it -1, but that's just me.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Oh, the irony.

but then everybody realized how Marth can be baited and punished, and that Pikachu has the mobility to do that; plus if Marth just overdoes his retreating stuff, he'll eventually get cornered and punished even harder.

I personally still don't see the MU as 0, I'd call it -1, but that's just me.

so the MU is even if the marth players are bad. that's the greatest logic ever. that MU is also -1 or -2.

man everyone but me must really suck at this game

 

[Claire Diviner]

I don't believe Reflex was scared; he just used what worked, and that's really the name of the game. Sure, you can use a character whose MU you're not familiar/good with and risk losing with the upside of proving some moot point, but in tournaments, you play to win, and if using a different character will get you that win, then so be it.

Also, this:

Spoiler

 

[Seagull Joe]

loses to . loses to . It isn't that hard to watch matchez and see clear disadvantages/advantages...

 

[ぱみゅ]

so the MU is even if the marth players are bad. that's the greatest logic ever. that MU is also -1 or -2.

man everyone but me must really suck at this game

I said the matchup is -1 at best, and that Pikachu has speed and mobility to make stuff happen. Don't try to win an argument I didn't even intended to start.

Also, what Sol's picture said.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i've already won whatever argument im involved now and in the future tho. for i am the best (troll). not everyone must know this by now tho otherwise people would quit wasting their time trying to deny my irrefutable troll wisdom

 

[Z'zgashi]

Youve won this argument about as much as you won against PJ.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I won't disagree to Peach losing to Marth, but it's not as hard as a -2. Yes Marth out ranges her, but if she wants to camp with turnips instead of i dunno being Fair happy the MU is much easier than if she actually tries to apply her poor pressure game in this MU. Lots of Patience and baiting since she really doesn't have to approach him at all and ofc he's slightly easier to gimp than most characters. Even though gimping doesn't really exist anymore lol.

Wario, why is Peach actually approaching? She can turnip camp this MU away, her fair is a great keep away tool and if he's careless on her shield, grab ar - usmash. It ko's at 100-105% iirc on FD which would mean thereabouts on most other stages. If he wants to use his tire game, she can fight back with them. Yes under normal circumstances her fair will be stale by the time of ko'ing so she will ko him (assuming no grab) at around 170 if he has decent DI. Her bair can also decently space Wario out. Though from 100% onward it's death if she grabs him. This is def a -1 for Wario, because for once she can actually out range a character, camp Wario for 8 min and it's a early KO assuming she gets the AR.

For what reflex said about her turnips being used against her, any Peach should be able to catch them if the opponent uses them against her, not to mention her bair noms them all. (not stitch)

 

[Thebest1pj]

Peach beats wario.

Marth beats peach.

The irony of poyo saying its ironic that maharba said to get a life is pretty ironic in itself.

Badflex is bad.


Maharbra is the king.

Mr.r is now Mr. bad
im out.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Why is Reflex bad? Because he decided to play with a character he wanted to play? Granted, when against Peach, Wario and PT are -1, but if I had two characters with a -1 MU, I'd rather use a character I'm more familiar with in the MU.

 

[Laem]

LMAO "You were too scared to use wario, you had to resort to POKEMON TRAINER" OF ALL CHARACTERS FOR CHRIST SAKE XD
Maharba for ignore list. Imo marth +1 peach, peach +1 or 0 wario. Btw you know who destroys wario? SHEIKKKKKKK

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth is pretty terrible. Probably +3 Peach's favour.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Marth is pretty terrible. Probably +3 Peach's favour.

Oh, of course. Clearly, Marth's sword has nothing on the awesomeness that is Peach's voluptuous hips.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's neutral air +1.5s Peach, otherwise its like even.

I haven't posted in this topic for all this time just to say that, I'll give it one try before I unsubscribe again and forget about it.
UNLESS YOU GUYS CAN ASSURE ME A CERTAIN FEW PEOPLE HAVE LEFT THIS THREAD FOREVER.

 

[z00ted]

LOL at all of this.

 

[Jrugs]

This place is dead, yo.
When's the next tier list comin' out, yo?

lol and you said this place was dead.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario, why is Peach actually approaching? She can turnip camp this MU away, her fair is a great keep away tool and if he's careless on her shield, grab ar - usmash. It ko's at 100-105% iirc on FD which would mean thereabouts on most other stages. If he wants to use his tire game, she can fight back with them. Yes under normal circumstances her fair will be stale by the time of ko'ing so she will ko him (assuming no grab) at around 170 if he has decent DI. Her bair can also decently space Wario out. Though from 100% onward it's death if she grabs him. This is def a -1 for Wario, because for once she can actually out range a character, camp Wario for 8 min and it's a early KO assuming she gets the AR.

For what reflex said about her turnips being used against her, any Peach should be able to catch them if the opponent uses them against her, not to mention her bair noms them all. (not stitch)

Wario's aerial mobility and strong follow-ups to a Z-Drop or turnip throw make it more difficult to keep yourself from taking damage while trying to deal with them. I'm not saying that they'll work every time, but, he is relatively threatening with them compared to most characters. It's useful, but it's hardly a catch-all camping strategy.

F-Air is a fantastic keep-away tool for Peach, but its use for walling/spacing certainly makes KOing difficult if Wario is careful about where/when he's grabbed. As an aside, SDI-ing the U-Smash down lets Wario live a little bit longer than normal from a grab-release U-Smash.

Wario's B-Air trades with a fair amount of Peach stuff if she's looking to space with constant attacks, which is usually a good thing for Wario.

Also, if Peach misses a grab attempt due to spotdodge stupidity, she eats an F-Smash, or at least a grab -> U-Throw, which is a juggle opportunity. Wario wants to inch her over to the edge and not be very threatening until she has no space to run away. That puts pressure on her and limits her options to ones where she has to commit, which makes things easier on Wario in general.

I feel that you underestimate how much damage Wario gets off of a single good read in that matchup and how much Peach has to go through once she's offstage.

 

[ViperGold42]

I can't wait for the next tier list where some other random character will jump up to take the #2 spot and be used by 4 players in major tournament play.

 

[Judo777]

LMAO "You were too scared to use wario, you had to resort to POKEMON TRAINER" OF ALL CHARACTERS FOR CHRIST SAKE XD
Maharba for ignore list. Imo marth +1 peach, peach +1 or 0 wario. Btw you know who destroys wario? SHEIKKKKKKK

If by destory you mean "oh look sheik actually has an even MU now, so the Sheik can now not play the uphill battle they are so used to."

In a similar sense Samus ***** peach lol

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wait, what does Sheik have on Wario other than Grab release-usmash?

Granted that's not a small thing, but is here something I'm missing? Some other advantage Sheik has?

 

[Laem]

kill at like 100% + insane damage racking (ftilt grab fair followup or something, lots of room for creativity).
In my experience (as wario) anyway.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Oh, so it's one of those matchups where you just have a million options gotchya

 

[da K.I.D.]

up tilt beats his aerials. f tilt racks good damage cus he is so heavy. nair punishes most of his moves, and a lot of her aerials tend to beat his cleanly. oh and needles can actually punish his airdodge nonsense. and also shes good at gimping him because fair sends at a good angle and its easy to knock him off bike.

 

[Deleted member]

why does peach beat wario?

 

[da K.I.D.]

fair and nair beat most of his moves and wall him out heavily, and if she gets a grab its death at 105 or so.

she also has very good anti airs and answers to his mobility