Official BBR Tier List v7

[Lukingordex]

Just giving a opinion:

I think Peach has a +1 against Wario.
And I think Marth has a +1 or a +2 against Peach.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

fair and nair beat most of his moves and wall him out heavily, and if she gets a grab its death at 105 or so.

she also has very good anti airs and answers to his mobility

Tbh, Wario is what a lot of Peach's match-ups would look like if she could kill before 200%.

 

[Judo777]

Tbh, Wario is what a lot of Peach's match-ups would look like if she could kill before 200%.

Peaches Nair is strong as hell for a frame 3 move. Its just never fresh. Granted Im a sheik player so everyone kills better than me (except maybe Samus).

 

[DMG]

Nope, even Samus does that better cause she can spike people


U silly Shiek players trying to kill people...

 

[Claire Diviner]

Sheik can always transform into Zelda and Fsmash for a kill, if that counts.

 

[BlueXenon]

If sheik is losing because he cant kill, switching to zelda wouldn't help imo because you would have to approach and Zelda is not good at that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Tbh, Wario is what a lot of Peach's match-ups would look like if she could kill before 200%.

Mmm...I disagree. A big part of that is because Wario has terrible range overall. Plus, few characters can run around/away like Wario can.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Mmm...I disagree. A big part of that is because Wario has terrible range overall. Plus, few characters can run around/away like Wario can.

Meh, I just meant that Peach has a lot of options for the first like 90% of every stock and then runs dry. Against Wario she has to worry less because she can kill him.

Peach is like a bad tennis player with a really good serve. She'd have to worry a lot less about becoming super predictable and stale if she could kill everyone at 105% >_>

 

[Luco]

Peaches Nair is strong as hell for a frame 3 move. Its just never fresh. Granted Im a sheik player so everyone kills better than me (except maybe Samus).

I always find it hard to kill with Sonic personally, that's probably just me though.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Sheik can always transform into Zelda and Fsmash for a kill, if that counts.

No, it doesnt.
1. Thats Zelda, not Sheik.
2. Zelda only can kill if you run into her, so switching to her wont work any better unless your opponent is dumb or gets cocky.

 

[Luco]

unless your opponent is dumb or gets cocky.

Too easy to do when versing some characters, actually. I'd probably be pretty relaxed if I was a DK or snake main facing a Lucas. :/

 

[Z'zgashi]

I dont see how that makes my point any less true.

 

[Luco]

Well if you are relaxed you may make a mistake. That's when the stock is taken and BAM! Back to sheik.

So I imagine.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Too easy to do when versing some characters, actually. I'd probably be pretty relaxed if I was a DK or snake main facing a Lucas. :/

What do you even mean by that?

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Well if you are relaxed you may make a mistake. That's when the stock is taken and BAM! Back to sheik.

I dunno, I imagine players to be more collected and level-headed when relaxed, while more nervous or brash players are prone to mistakes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I never get to feel relaxed against good players.

Ah, such is the nature of Jigglypuff

 

[Luco]

What do you even mean by that?

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Oh, I actually ninja'd someone? Yay!!!

It's funny because my brother never wins at smash but the other day he was using olimar and I was edgeguarding him and trying to use ropesnake but he used his upB and destroyed me. It was last stock too so he won the game and rom there on in he said I was incapable of ever ninja'ing him because I was always the one people expected to win out of the two of us. As it turned out I had two really bad deaths in a later game and ninja'd him later so I did end up getting my revenge.

Anyway the reason for that story is I never seem to really be able to ninja. So doing it once is awesome. :D

Ahh yea true, I guess a better word is boastful, big-headed. Pertaining to that which is a male chicken. No wait that's a rooster. Wrong one. >.<

 

[infiniteV115]

Sheik can always transform into Zelda and Fsmash for a kill, if that counts.

I think you mean usmash

 

[Claire Diviner]

I think you mean usmash

Oh, did I say "Fsmash"? I meant "Fair".

In seriousness though, is there a MU where Sheik can benefit from transforming into Zelda for the sake of KOing the character? I'm not very familiar with Shielda's MUs, considering how recent Shielda's addition to the tier list is. Yeahh, maybe not that recent, but still recent enough.

 

[da K.I.D.]

theres a few matchups I can think of where if you hit a down smash at over 110 or so, it gives you enough time to transform and zelda would actually worth playing an awfull character when you only need one hit.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

fair and nair beat most of his moves and wall him out heavily, and if she gets a grab its death at 105 or so.

she also has very good anti airs and answers to his mobility

Don't forget Bair too

Meh, I just meant that Peach has a lot of options for the first like 90% of every stock and then runs dry. Against Wario she has to worry less because she can kill him.

Peach is like a bad tennis player with a really good serve. She'd have to worry a lot less about becoming super predictable and stale if she could kill everyone at 105% >_>

Being the only character to actually have a tennis racquet in her moveset, I'd say she was actually a very good tennis player!!!

...ehem


Actually landing that grab for the Up Smash kill is still tricky especially if you're not on FD (and you won't be) but it certainly is a nice thing to have in the Wario MU along with Up Tilt if Up Smash isn't available

What Reflex said about Wario's range is also true - imo that's the real clincher in the MU

 

[Z'zgashi]

Zelda does **** Yoshi though.

 

[Lukingordex]

Zelda vs Yoshi is very even.

 

[-LzR-]

About as even as Yoshi's Island.

 

[Lukingordex]

In my head,Zelda vs Yoshi is +1 .

But in the head of others Yoshi mains it is even,so I say it is even too.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Do you guys think ZSS is ready to go up a tier? I don't think she should gain any spots necessarily, just that she's a good candidate for B tier, similarly to how Toon Link was bumped up to high tier a while back.

ZSS mains have been doing all kinds of work compared to a few years ago, and that's hard to deny. They've made immense progress and showed that she isn't a character that is countered by lolshields or Falco. It's also hard to deny ZSS' incredible and dangerous mix-up potential, deceptively high damage output, dirty off-stage pressure, good recovery, and superior mobility. She also has an awesome MC making her pretty resilient for her weight class. She still has her weaknesses (shield pressure is sometimes a problem, and dat grab), of course but I think the strengths are really shining.

I'd also like to point out that a few years ago, no one thought ZSS could really hard-counter any character, but I'd say that is no longer the case. Donkey Kong and debatably King Dedede are at least +2, among other characters. She also has a convincing advantage vs. Ice Climbers, who are a powerful character in the meta right now.

Salem, NickRiddle, Quiksilver in europe, and several other ZSS players are taking home top 10 placings at Tournaments That Matter consistently, and players like Salem have shown that ZSS is fast and flexible and can be very strong.

I used to think that characters like Wario and Marth were a level above ZSS but I don't really think so anymore, she should be in the same tier they are.

 

[Claire Diviner]

If ZSS is improving that much, then I guess the next step is to see how well Zamus mains perform in tournaments, no?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

+1 isn't a "convincing advantage", but I agree.

 

[#HBC | J]

ZSS should either be equal to level of Wario or above Wario. Depends how you look at it, but otherwise she has done enough to garner enough support to get her to B-tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS should either be equal to level of Wario or above Wario. Depends how you look at it, but otherwise she has done enough to garner enough support to get her to B-tier.

My problem with having her above Wario is that Wario has better tools to deal with aggression and shield pressure, and honestly I'd say he's a slightly safer pick overall. However it is true that Wario loses to some weird mid tier characters, while ZSS doesn't have that problem and generally beats everyone "below" her. And it is also true that Wario loses a bit harder to some high tiers (MK notably, although I avoid talking about that MU because it's contentious and I've been out of the game for a while).

ZSS also has a few moves of dubious usefulness like fsmash and ftilt, I mean, Wario's command grab is still probably better than several of ZSS' moves combined, lol.

It's at least close!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ZSS beating DDD +2 is such a ******** fad, there's nothing that proves ZSS to beat DDD at all. And how many times did the IC vs ZSS match-up actually happen that people claim it's a solid advantage for ZSS?

 

[NickRiddle]

I haven't played Vinnie, but other ICs are free for me.
ZSS should probably +1 DDD as of right now. They used to play stupid and let me grab them for free at 0%, but they've become less ********.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What ICs do you play?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's why I said "arguably" but I still think it's +2. Salem more or less demolished atomsk's dedede when they played, losing the first game only because of a stupid waddle dee that should have never hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRVRbNaTaRY

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Match-up went even until Atomsk picked Falco though. Ramin also lost to him with his ZSS
Akuma beat Quik with DDD and Coney beat NR after being virtually even all the time [P5 still relevant results in my book]. Doesn't add up to +2.

 

[NickRiddle]

What ICs do you play?

ESAM's a lot. Florida ones... I haven't played Vinnie, and aren't all other ICs besides those two irrelevant in the US?
ICs all quit, it is not my fault I haven't played them.

Match-up went even until Atomsk picked Falco though. Ramin also lost to him with his ZSS
Akuma beat Quik with DDD and Coney beat NR after being virtually even all the time [P5 still relevant results in my book]. Doesn't add up to +2.

I was getting destroyed game one, remembered how to play the MU and solidly beat him game 2, and was at 30% when I SDed when he was over 100%... I guess that's going even.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't call having an 80%ish lead most of the game being "even" but whatever you say. :\

I don't think the difference between +2 and +1 on The King is the difference between B and C tier, in any case. Lots of match-ups for ZSS are still very arguable because frankly they just don't happen that often. She probably loses to Olimar but Salem has taken games off Dabuz, I don't think it's a severe disadvantage, no more than +2. And I don't think ICs is worse than +1.

There are also characters in B tier with worse match-ups with both good and bad characters. Wario loses to like, Peach and Sheik? lol. Falco loses last I checked to both Pikachu and ICs.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ftr ESAM also thinks ICs lose -2 to ZSS, he says it's their worst MU.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So,... talk about the MU and why it is so solid as opposed to the results (or lack thereof because there is no ZSS representation in a lot of regions). You've about exhausted results with no conclusive evidence.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Results and demonstration are really the only form of "conclusive" evidence.

Do you consider theorycraft more conclusive?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

More conclusive? No. Theory crafting implies that it's a hypothesis. MUs don't change unless the rule set changes, but Ganons win on occasion.

Establish why the character wins or it could simply be that ESAM has only every played Nick Riddle with a wavebird while he has a severe case of the runs. Results should be shown to demonstrate the theory or Ness's MU spread would be amazing based solely on results from their two top players.

Or do you subscribe to the Mekos school of MUs?

I find it highly suspect that Zamus is supposed to be on level with Marth and Wario. I also find your sales pitch to be highly optimistic.