Official BBR Tier List v7

[DMG]

Based off what Vinnie posted on Facebook, 9B thinks IC's only lose to ROB.

ZSS is good but not Marth good. I don't even know if she's better than Lucario (gut says no).

Wario doesn't lose to Shiek, but it's very even. Some stages are good for her though in that MU.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm not going to back up the claim about ZSS being on the same level as Marth/Wario because
-I wasn't the one to make that claim
-I don't even thinking Marth and Wario are on the same level

That said, I don't really know the ZSS:ICs MU in-depth but I can't think of a ZSS other than NR who would know the MU as well as he does, or an ICs other than ESAM who would know the MU as well as he does.

AFAIK there are no ZSSs with whom Vinnie gets regular practice, and Vinnie has been known to make a few wild claims...I also asked him in the chat of a stream quite a while ago and he said the MU was even, then a few months later he beats Salem at COT6 and suddenly it's -1 for ZSS XD

All that said, I'll explain the MU to the extent of my knowledge.
ZSS is very good at staying safe on shield. Dsmash, bair and sideB are all safe on shield (this is important because even when ZSS is landing while trying to juggle Nana, she can just bair a Popo who tries to start a dthrow CG and then continue the juggle), and since Nana's ******** she can easily get hit by these even though Popo shields them. Once separated Nana gets absolutely destroyed, even if the ZSS messes up you know Nana is taking at least 50% because ZSS' air game is ridiculous. Coupled with the fact that Nana's high in the air when separated, is a stupid CPU that doesn't know how to DI or momentum cancel and you have Nana dying at like 70 or 80 to an aerial sideB.

On top of that, ZSS also has 2 useful meteor smashes to gimp Nana and/or Popo offstage, in her upB and downB.
Furthermore, both ZSS' neutral B (laser) and sideB outrange Blizzard.
Furthermore, with ZSS' dsmash it becomes hard for ICs to recover and they usually have to resort to a high Squall Hammer (that's their sideB, right? XD) to recover, because if ZSS times the dsmash properly she can dsmash Popo out of Belay. Not to mention that dsmash and bair will go right through Squall Hammer and you have ICs offstage once again. This becomes especially hard with just Sopo because you can just react to a Squall Hammer landing with walk-->dsmash/pivot dsmash.
ZSS can also shield pressure well with spaced bair and sideB.
ZSS is also very good at juggling and ICs suck at not getting juggled...ZSS is faster in every aspect (running speed, rising speed, fall speed, horizontal air speed) which means she run away from Popo pretty well to destroy Nana, or to just chase them both while they're in the air and juggle the crap out of them. Yes, uair EASILY outranges ICs' dair XD

Also suitpieces kick ***. That's all I can think of right now.

 

[Z'zgashi]

About as even as Yoshi's Island.

More like Final Destination.

 

[Judo777]

Based off what Vinnie posted on Facebook, 9B thinks IC's only lose to ROB.

ZSS is good but not Marth good. I don't even know if she's better than Lucario (gut says no).

Wario doesn't lose to Shiek, but it's very even. Some stages are good for her though in that MU.

This is true but I feel than many MORE stages are good for Wario lol. Like we get a few good stages but Wario gets some broke ones lol

 

[DMG]

In a conservative stage list, not really IMO. Shiek vs Wario on most starters is not that bad for her.

 

[Judo777]

In a conservative stage list, not really IMO. Shiek vs Wario on most starters is not that bad for her.

No ur right conservative stage list is the stages aren't as big a factor. But so help me if you get RC, BR, Frigate .........

 

[DMG]

So help 90% of the cast if he gets those stages LOL

 

[Lukingordex]

+1 isn't a "convincing advantage", but I agree.

Zelda is not that bad against Yoshi,she is not like Ganon or Bowser who are a easy +3 to us.

I will not talk about that MU because I have more useful things to do now.
But I'm sure that she is the second or third most difficult Low Tier MU to .

 

[Delta-cod]

Whaaaaa?

Yoshi definitely has an advantage over Zelda, however slight.

Yoshi definitely does NOT lose to Samus, Mario, or Lucas.

 

[Lukingordex]

I don't said Yoshi lose to them, I said Yoshi has a +1 against Lucas and Mario,and even with Samus.

And my opinion is: Yoshi has a +1 against Zelda.

That losing was to Zelda,not Yoshi,maybe that was confusing,sorry,I'll try for edit to better understanding.

 

[RaptorTEC]

How does Yoshi even fight Zelda?

Curse you Vinnie

 

[#HBC | J]

Yoshi doesn't lose to Lucas but him winning the MU is debatable. The thing that tips it is CG shenanigans.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi has a pretty large advantage in terms of acquiring and keeping a lead. Lucas struggles to kill a camping Yoshi. In order to kill Yoshi, Lucas needs to approach, which puts him in position to be grabbed, chain grabbed, and then Usmashed for damage or for the kill.

On the flipside, when Yoshi is down a stock, while he does need to approach, he still only needs to land a grab, Nair, or Uair to kill, all of which are relatively safe options. Jab > Down B is also a very viable kill move, which combos at higher percents. Yoshi also has decent edge guarding traps to kill Lucas with.

Basically, while both characters start out even, Yoshi has an easier time acquiring and maintaining a stock lead, which basically snowballs into a larger and larger lead as time goes on.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yoshi has a pretty large advantage in terms of acquiring and keeping a lead. Lucas struggles to kill a camping Yoshi. In order to kill Yoshi, Lucas needs to approach, which puts him in position to be grabbed, chain grabbed, and then Usmashed for damage or for the kill.

On the flipside, when Yoshi is down a stock, while he does need to approach, he still only needs to land a grab, Nair, or Uair to kill, all of which are relatively safe options. Jab > Down B is also a very viable kill move, which combos at higher percents. Yoshi also has decent edge guarding traps to kill Lucas with.

Basically, while both characters start out even, Yoshi has an easier time acquiring and maintaining a stock lead, which basically snowballs into a larger and larger lead as time goes on.

Yes, Yoshi has a better time camping that Lucas does. However, the way you are wording this is as if Yoshi can just get a grab whenever he wants to which isn't really the case.

The grab does not equal the entire argument/MU.

Also Yoshi does not have Edge Gaurding traps that kill Lucas with if the Lucas knows how to recover decently. That's a bad misconception.

Your last paragraph is something I can agree to. The thing about this MU is that it is essentially even, but the fact is Yoshi has a bit of a stronger camping game and his CG->Usmash gives him a slight advantage. It's debatable to be 0 or -1 but it's more than fine being a -1. Though Yoshi is probably one of our easiest -1's to deal with.

 

[Delta-cod]

The entire point of my post was to outline why Yoshi beats Lucas, not to outline the entire MU.

If Lucas could actually, you know, kill, instead of letting me live to 200% consistently, the MU might be even.

 

[#HBC | J]

If Lucas could actually, you know, kill, instead of letting me live to 200% consistently, the MU might be even.

What Lucas' do you face? o_O

 

[Delta-cod]

Mekos and Pink Fresh.

 

[#HBC | J]

Ah I see. Hmph, well that is odd but okay. 200% is quite the high number though haha.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi is heavy and escapes Lucas' kill traps well.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yeah I know that dino is quite heavy haha. Yoshi does do pretty well at avoiding obvious traps.

Yoshi probably outlines what a -1 MU is for Lucas. Idk, I feel more research can be done about that MU since it is a little obscure.

Who knows?

 

[Luco]

Wow, I know the cute dino is pretty heavy but good gosh man, 200%? I... suppose so? I mean, No early Fsmash or Dsmash kills? None? Ahh this is killing my mind! D:

Ahh well. Still, I don't play any good yoshis but doesn't yoshi have some trouble himself in terms of the kill move? I don't die to a yoshi smash usually until 150%+ if I recall correctly.

Still, if you're playing Mekos and PF and winning... Well, fair enough.

Willing to call it a -1 I guess.

 

[-LzR-]

Lucas has some ****ty smashes though. How are they gonna hit people? Trying to use them is a pretty easy way to get grabbed and the proceed to get GR Usmashed by Yoshi. The way I see it Fair or Ftilt are the most reliable ones for killing, but Finland doesn't have any Lucases worth mentioning so I might be very wrong.

 

[DMG]

Fsmash good. Others bad

 

[-LzR-]

Well surely Fsmash is good but in the Yoshi MU it's very risky as Lucas doesn't want to get grabbed which can even set up for a kill.

 

[Lukingordex]

The MU of my main and my second being discussed...

Cool

+1 Yoshi.

 

[#HBC | J]

Lucas has the ability to avoid Yoshi's grab pretty well in the MU. You are correct though in saying killing from the ground is a bit risky but with our kill throws and set-ups, it's not the hardest thing.

 

[Luigi player]

Lucas' throws don't kill too early... Yoshi probably dies at like ~170 which isn't too early... (and grabbing with Lucas is risky too if you're afraid of Yoshis own grab lol)

And with Yoshi not shielding often/him not being able to get shieldstabbed it shouldn't be easy to do much on him too as far as killsetups go :x

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi's grab is a major defensive/punishing tool in general. Couple that with a situation where Lucas needs to kill Yoshi, or approach him, and Yoshi gets plenty of opportunities to grab.

Lucas doesn't really grab Yoshi, and like I said before, Yoshi is fast for a heavyweight. He doesn't get killed by setups.

 

[#HBC | J]

Lucas' throws don't kill too early... Yoshi probably dies at like ~170 which isn't too early... (and grabbing with Lucas is risky too if you're afraid of Yoshis own grab lol)

And with Yoshi not shielding often/him not being able to get shieldstabbed it shouldn't be easy to do much on him too as far as killsetups go :x

Yeah, 170 isn't too too bad because other players like (omg, trying to Dthrow DDD/DK/Snake, ugh haha.)

Usually our Dthrow kills around 150(+/- dependent on weight, I swear we have a thread dedicated for this but I've lost it in our boards since it's become a bit of a mess since we don't have a consistent mod) for most of the characters.

You are correct, Delta, in saying that Lucas is not going to be grabbing Yoshi often, but it is an option to have.

Yoshi's fast air speed is so great for him. <3

 

[-LzR-]

Killing at around 150% is worse than Peach's killing options most of the time. Damn Lucas is bad.

 

[#HBC | J]

That just killing with a Dthrow. Plus it's guaranteed so I'll take it.

His other kills are a different story.

 

[Chuee]

Killing at around 150% is worse than Peach's killing options most of the time. Damn Lucas is bad.

Not really. Lucas can actually kill at earlier percents with a good read, Peach can't unless she lands her extremely situational usmash.

 

[-LzR-]

But they don't work

 

[Lukingordex]

Lucas' pivot grab is not useless on this MU, is nothing compared to Yoshi's,but can be used in some situations.

Also,without DI,Dthrow kills Yoshi at 150%,maybe it needs a little more % on PS1 because of the height of that stage.

 

[#HBC | J]

It's not useless, but it's definitely not something to rely on.

 

[Lukingordex]

Really it is not,since Yoshi will be defensive on this MU.

But anyway,I don't find the eggs a problem for Lucas,but when I play Yoshi,they are very useful,not only to force approachs,but to make some lucky setups on the air.But when I play Lucas,I think it's easy to avoid them, lol.

 

[PMC66]

In my head,Zelda vs Yoshi is +1 .

But in the head of others Yoshi mains it is even,so I say it is even too.

I think it's about +2 if you throw eggs and don't aproach, that and Zelda is laughably easy to kill.

 

[Lukingordex]

Makes sense.

 

[Scatz]

Lucas gets demolished when we grab him. Fsmash, Usmash, CG, dtilt/dsmash (for gimp setups) are all he eats for getting reckless vs yoshi.

 

[#HBC | J]

I don't get why you think Yoshi can Gimp Lucas, but the rest of thing you have 100% correct in what Yoshi has on Lucas. *The Dtilt yes, Dsmash I'm not too sure about because that has never been brought up as 100%*