Official BBR Tier List v7

[Seagull Joe]

Lol, what? Link can make it back to the ledge with a double jump, let alone z-air/up-b. Did you even test this?

Cg to edge>Air release> just needs to bair once or twice and it's a stock. can up b, but he gets bair'd when he attempts it. It's a stock everytime...

 

[Z'zgashi]

/waiting for Link mains to argue how good their boomerang is

I remember winning a doubles match thanks to boomerang cuz it was just me vs the enemy Marth, and I got Marth offstage, then I threw my boomerang out, and right as it came back, it caught Marth directly before using his Up B to the ledge and pulled him under the lip of FD. :D

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes; San and Hbox

Oh, and Mink is a pretty cool guy too.

I definitely agree with San and HBox. SoulPech shouldn't be slept on either.

Mink is a pretty good/smart player, but I don't think he plays Puff optimally IMO.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Cg to edge>Air release> just needs to bair once or twice and it's a stock. can up b, but he gets bair'd when he attempts it. It's a stock everytime...

SDI the B-Air.

 

[thrillagorilla]

And pretty much none of that is true. His aerials that aren't incredibly laggy are weak and the ones that can kill are among the laggiest aerials in the game. Just look at his uair, it's ****.
His jab is not good. It comes out like at frame 7? Many characters have faster smashes than that. It cannot be utilized as jabs are usually used. His KO set-ups are mostly gimmicks like boomerang wind bull**** that never works or bomb into something that is kinda decent.
And powerful finishers? Are you kidding me? His only decent killmove is dair. He belongs to bottom 3 with Ganon and Zelda.

/waiting for Link mains to argue how good their boomerang is

Couple of things... first and foremost I would like to point out that frame data isn't the only thing attached to moves. Link's range is comparable to Marth's and Metaknight's, making it so he doesn't have to always rely on a gtfo move. Yes it would be nice to have one, but it isn't necessary in most cases utilizing his spacing tools (projectiles, short-hop game, jab, grab). Less specific to Link, by your logic of looking at laggy air moves Snake has a useless move-set when he is in the air. This obviously isn't the case. His air move-set isn't the greatest, but most of them have very specific uses that when utilized properly can yeild some great results (just ask anyone that has died to Snake's uair and bair).

Also, Ike is a good example of how "laggy" aerials can be utilized to a great extent. Link's short hop game (fair, bair, nair and zair)has different applications, but is executed in a similar fashion. Personally I think Link is much more a ground based character anyways, since he can best defend from that position.

Some specifics... jab is a spacing tool, not a gtfo move. Of course it is going to be used differently. In a lot of ways it doesn't matter since Link is by nature a spacing character, and historically characters like that don't have many options at close range to begin with. uair is not meant to catch people by surprise or string together from another move, it is meant to punish air dodges or attacks that it out-ranges. Most of the time it isn't used outside of a full hop anyways, since it auto cancels when used in that instance. Kill set ups are not so much about boomerangs as they are about using your spacing tools to force the opponent into a position where they are vulnerable to fsmash (generally safe when spaced due to the shield stun/knock-back) utilt (used as an anti-air of sorts, doesn't kill until after 130% but works rather well afterward) dsmash (this can kill after around 120%, can shield poke and comes out fastest of all of Link's options)or dair (not safe, but kills around the 100% marker). Bomb set ups are pretty legit, though. Finally, I don't know exactly what you want from the Link mains about Boomerang, its a good spacing tool? *shrugs*

SDI the B-Air.

Yeah, pretty much lol. Or, he can simply fair and hit D3 away... Point is, he has options lol.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Geeking out because your name is ThrillaGorilla. Thrillas Surfari is like the best game ever.

 

[smashkng]

Link is too slow to defend properly. He can't camp well because the way he uses Zair and projectiles makes it so that he eventually runs out of space (when he gets close to the edge), which is the part where having a GTFO move would really help him. His mobility is also too slow to reposition properly. Ike can at least fight at close range with his amazing jab and is a bit more mobile than Link.

 

[Luco]

Yeah but doesnt have Africa punch

If a Lucas player plays patient it becomes a lot harder for DK to get in the trap, much less the punch. Mekos is a good example of such.

On a tangent, characters (well I know Lucas can, dunno about others) can get out of Lucario's sideB before he does damage.

As for the lower tier thing, I dunno I remember when I wasn't in the competitive scene and it was obvious to me that ganon wasn't great, probably the worst. I dunno about Zelda, tbh, and link is the same way. Ganon just has no options when playing characters like MK and oli. he could maybe be better than link or zelda I guess. Not sure.

Putting falcon at bottom though? It doesn't make sense to me when he's one of 2 LT chars to not have any -4's. I know match-up data isn't the absolute be-all and end-all when it comes to tier list but I dunno, it seems weird that the lowest char on the tier list should not have any -3's and even have 0's or positives compared to other chars that have 0's or -1's at best.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He should have -4s imo

 

[thrillagorilla]

Link is too slow to defend properly. He can't camp well because the way he uses Zair and projectiles makes it so that he eventually runs out of space (when he gets close to the edge), which is the part where having a GTFO move would really help him. His mobility is also too slow to reposition properly. Ike can at least fight at close range with his amazing jab and is a bit more mobile than Link.

Again, having a gtfo move would be nice, but not necessary. Link's move-set is not meant for camping, its meant for spacing. Projectiles and zair are there to force a specific kind of approach, so Link can prep his response before the opponent gets there. Link's sword swipes dole out a very large chunk of percentage, and its where he wants to be most of the time, just on his terms. The mind-set is slightly different from Ike's, since Ike will always be the character that approaches in any MU due to his lack of projectile game.

@MegaRobMan: LOL! I'll be honest, I got the name from the DKC instruction booklet rather than that game, but dang is that awesome!

 

[Luco]

Ahh sorry guys, i misread the MU chart. I dunno why Samus and mario are higher... i can't read that thing

Okay sorry. There are actually 4 LT's with no -4's. Mario, Samus, Lucas and C. falcon.

not sure what falcon's -4's would actually be if he had them, come to think of it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MK/Olimar/ICs/Falco/Pika, depending on who you ask.

There is little doubt in my mind that MK/Falcon is -4, I don't know those other MUs as well.

 

[-LzR-]

Again, having a gtfo move would be nice, but not necessary. Link's move-set is not meant for camping, its meant for spacing. Projectiles and zair are there to force a specific kind of approach, so Link can prep his response before the opponent gets there. Link's sword swipes dole out a very large chunk of percentage, and its where he wants to be most of the time, just on his terms. The mind-set is slightly different from Ike's, since Ike will always be the character that approaches in any MU due to his lack of projectile game.

Links projectiles are way too slow and ****ty for any kind of keep away against fast characters. All he can do is throw his incredibly laggy or unpractical projectiles while retreating, until he runs out of space and dies. How can he space when he is incredibly slow and clumsy and the moves where he "has range comparable to Marth" are so slow you can just hit him before they are out. Link also can't do anything OoS which really hurts him. Link is definitely bottom 3.

 

[ぱみゅ]

MK/Olimar/ICs/Falco/Pika, depending on who you ask.

There is little doubt in my mind that MK/Falcon is -4, I don't know those other MUs as well.

I don't think any of those MUs are -4, maybe Olimar.
His mobility alone alows him for great mixups, and his punish game is (what's the word for "slightly below decent"? Above average?) that helps on that matter.
All of them are still retardedly hard for him, though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MK and Olimar would be my only votes.

 

[smashkng]

Again, having a gtfo move would be nice, but not necessary. Link's move-set is not meant for camping, its meant for spacing. Projectiles and zair are there to force a specific kind of approach, so Link can prep his response before the opponent gets there. Link's sword swipes dole out a very large chunk of percentage, and its where he wants to be most of the time, just on his terms. The mind-set is slightly different from Ike's, since Ike will always be the character that approaches in any MU due to his lack of projectile game.

@MegaRobMan: LOL! I'll be honest, I got the name from the DKC instruction booklet rather than that game, but dang is that awesome!

Even against slow characters he WILL run out of space after a while making a successful approach by the opponent inevitable. Fast chars don't even have to make Link run out of space. When that happens Link will have to take a lot of damage before getting out, usually a lot more than he dealt with his low damage projectiles and Zair. Throwing out things with the sword is risky because his sword attacks are all slow.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Which of Link's aerials is laggy? Nair, bair, fair all AC and have hitboxes that outlast air/spotdodge, uair outranges like every dair in the game and also outlasts airdodges by a long shot. Unless Link is dumb with it it's virtually unpunishable from above.
Only dair is laggy but it has guaranteed setups via bomb / footstool and zair is also good and not laggy at all.
Comments like that is exactly why I'm so sure Link's underrated - most people don't even understand the very basics of this character.

Okay sorry. There are actually 4 LT's with no -4's. Mario, Samus, Lucas and C. falcon.

Mario / Samus are -4 with DDD
C.Falcon is -4 with ICs and probably Olimar
And whether Lucas is actually LT at this point remains questionable.

 

[smashkng]

Link has to be careful with Uair. It first hits on frame 15 and if he doesn't use it from high enough he'll get 30 FRAMES landing lag. It has almost no horizontal hitbox either and it's even worse with his terrible jumps and very slow horizontal aerial movement. Link's Fair has unlike Ike's Fair only a horinzontal hitbox, no vertical one. Link's Nair and Bair don't have much range and they have to be spaced in order not to get punished for using and it's hard to follow-up with anything with Bair besides Utilt, another Bair or Usmash, which don't lead to significant damage. Zair sure is good but it's another move that Link will need space to use if he doesn't want to get punished.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm not sure if Samus is -4 vs DDD either, DDD doesn't even have an infinite on her and she can camp very well. She could literally jsut stand on the edge of the stage throwing stuff.
DDD still has tools like Bair, Ftilt, even Fair and Nair. Also, even if the chaingrab it's not too long, he has 5 waranteed regrabs, and that means a lot of damage. That alone would mean -3, imo.
However, it could be -4 if we consider Samus can't really kill DDD. EVER.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I'm pretty sure D3 has the infinite on Spamus. XD It's Mario, Luigi, Dk, Bowser, D3, Samus, Wolf. With the buffered reverse pivot grab..
Ivy, Chari, Snake, Yoshi.

Might be more, think I added a few wrong.

 

[Cassio]

imo falcon is -4 with pika still when you consider the 0-death. Hes one of the easiest characters to grab and has no projectile. Pika was his only -4 on v1.

OH WELL

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

imo falcon is -4 with pika still when you consider the 0-death. Hes one of the easiest characters to grab and has no projectile. Pika was his only -4 on v1.

OH WELL

I don't think you understand the concept of -4.

 

[-LzR-]

Which of Link's aerials is laggy? Nair, bair, fair all AC and have hitboxes that outlast air/spotdodge, uair outranges like every dair in the game and also outlasts airdodges by a long shot. Unless Link is dumb with it it's virtually unpunishable from above.
Only dair is laggy but it has guaranteed setups via bomb / footstool and zair is also good and not laggy at all.
Comments like that is exactly why I'm so sure Link's underrated - most people don't even understand the very basics of this character.

Nair and bair don't have like any range or priority at all which really limits their use, especially for a character who shouldn't ever be that close to their opponents. Fair is decent yeah, but it takes forever for the first hitbox to come out and even if it hits it's not really impressive.
And uair as mentioned only has a vertical hitbox. It's like a 1 pixel wide straight line above Link. Sure, it has amazing range, but it's extremely weak when compared to similar uairs, like TLs. There isn't much reward to landing it and Link can't really reliably do it with his crap mobility, opponents can just go around it.
All those dair setups are either extremely inpractical or hard to do or are just simply risky.
He also has the worst zair of the useful zairs which also is kinda crap.

 

[Vermanubis]

As someone with the highest volume of -4s in the game, I wanna emphasize the severity of a -4 and exactly what it implies. -4, to me, is when the only option you have involves extreme risk, and makes you available to be killed with extreme ease, e.g. Falco/MK/Oli/ICs for Ganon. At no point can Ganon select a safe option or intelligently defend against them, because they have too many options, and he has too little to discourage or preclude any of theirs.

When I envision Falcon vs. Pika, or Mario vs. MK, I see them having an extremely difficult time, but not being so profoundly overwhelmed that their only recourse is to commit to virtual suicide with each move.

 

[Judo777]

As someone with the highest volume of -4s in the game, I wanna emphasize the severity of a -4 and exactly what it implies. -4, to me, is when the only option you have involves extreme risk, and makes you available to be killed with extreme ease, e.g. Falco/MK/Oli/ICs for Ganon. At no point can Ganon select a safe option or intelligently defend against them, because they have too many options, and he has too little to discourage or preclude any of theirs.

When I envision Falcon vs. Pika, or Mario vs. MK, I see them having an extremely difficult time, but not being so profoundly overwhelmed that their only recourse is to commit to virtual suicide with each move.

Sheik! Sheik! Sheik! I still think Sheik is Ganon's worst MU..... lol

 

[Dcold]

Naw...Ganon's got that power. A read for Ganon is like half of a stock it seems, but I only have wifi-DLA experience so that's not much. Either way the MU is hell.

 

[Claire Diviner]

It's unfortunate that Ganon has no beneficial MUs, or even ones for that matter (although I can't help but feel his MU with Falcon could still be 0). If only L-canceling were in the game, and his Down B restored his second jump, I'd think those alone would've helped his case. I wouldn't know how greatly though, as it'll mean other characters would benefit from L-canceling too.

 

[Judo777]

Naw...Ganon's got that power. A read for Ganon is like half of a stock it seems, but I only have wifi-DLA experience so that's not much. Either way the MU is hell.

Too bad several of sheiks moves are practically safe on powershield. His frame data is other end of the spectrum from Sheik.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

As someone with the highest volume of -4s in the game, I wanna emphasize the severity of a -4 and exactly what it implies. -4, to me, is when the only option you have involves extreme risk, and makes you available to be killed with extreme ease, e.g. Falco/MK/Oli/ICs for Ganon. At no point can Ganon select a safe option or intelligently defend against them, because they have too many options, and he has too little to discourage or preclude any of theirs.

When I envision Falcon vs. Pika, or Mario vs. MK, I see them having an extremely difficult time, but not being so profoundly overwhelmed that their only recourse is to commit to virtual suicide with each move.

Seriously, can I get a PM whenever Verm posts?

But he's exactly right. The fact that you have a zero to death is bad, but Diddy and ICs have that on everyone. Most everyone has that on ROB. The reason that D3 has +4s is because his grab is extremely easy to land of many of the other characters only options.

 

[Ruinn]

dk ddd without the infinite and small step is probably only -3, maybe even -2.

 

[Luigi player]

dk ddd without the infinite and small step is about even.

fix'd that for you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No Lp, just no.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I stand by Ruinn's initial post of -2. DK has some great range on his air/ground normals and pretty good special moves. However that means very little, with a well timed power shield from DDD, DK can camp as much as he wants and all DDD needs is 1 grab. Not to mention DK is stupidy easy to CG.

 

[Luigi player]

I stand by Ruinn's initial post of -2. DK has some great range on his air/ground normals and pretty good special moves. However that means very little, with a well timed power shield from DDD, DK can camp as much as he wants and all DDD needs is 1 grab. Not to mention DK is stupidy easy to CG.

What? Read what he posted. It's without the infinite or small step. So he doesn't need just one grab.

DKs downB > everything Dedede has grounded except sideB. Aerial Dedede sucks vs DK. DK also ***** Dededes recovery really easily if he manages to get a grab himself (he can cargo dtoss D3 offstage then start edgeguarding). Dedede is even easier to edgeguard than Snake lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm pretty sure D3 has the infinite on Spamus. XD It's Mario, Luigi, Dk, Bowser, D3, Samus, Wolf. With the buffered reverse pivot grab..
Ivy, Chari, Snake, Yoshi.

Might be more, think I added a few wrong.

Fairly certain Wofl doesn't get infinited by DDD, I could be wrong though.

 

[Luigi player]

Dedede can infinite Wolf on edges if he has the right spacing.

 

[Espy Rose]

Can Dedede micromanage his spacing during the dthrow chaingrab across stage to actually set up the ledge infinite?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

What? Read what he posted. It's without the infinite or small step. So he doesn't need just one grab.

DKs downB > everything Dedede has grounded except sideB. Aerial Dedede sucks vs DK. DK also ***** Dededes recovery really easily if he manages to get a grab himself (he can cargo dtoss D3 offstage then start edgeguarding). Dedede is even easier to edgeguard than Snake lol.

I read what he said about the small step. He still takes a respectable amount of damage off of one grab. You also must consider wall infinites as a possibility with counter pick maps such as Delfino.

A good DDD will never use Up+b period. We know it is easily punishable, but your assuming in a competitive environment a DDD would have to use his Up+b every time hes off stage. This is untrue as DDD has multiple jumps you have to consider into him recovering.

DDD off stage and snake off stage are two very different things entirely. DDD has a easier time getting back with his jumps. A smart opponent would need to get solid reads on what DDD tries to do to get back and force him to up+b. DDD does not simply become 'free' as soon as hes off stage.

Can Dedede micromanage his spacing during the dthrow chaingrab across stage to actually set up the ledge infinite?

It's possible but not practical. You'd have to consider the different maps allowed in tournament play, plus where DDD starts the chain grab on the stage. I find the ledge infinite to be mostly situational due to vary stage lengths.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Pretty sure he means after the grab takes place and that you mean prior to getting the first grab. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm not sure if Samus is -4 vs DDD either, DDD doesn't even have an infinite on her and she can camp very well. She could literally jsut stand on the edge of the stage throwing stuff.
DDD still has tools like Bair, Ftilt, even Fair and Nair. Also, even if the chaingrab it's not too long, he has 5 waranteed regrabs, and that means a lot of damage. That alone would mean -3, imo.
However, it could be -4 if we consider Samus can't really kill DDD. EVER.

standing infinites . I actually do it to Noid in friendlies .

I'm pretty sure D3 has the infinite on Spamus. XD It's Mario, Luigi, Dk, Bowser, D3, Samus, Wolf. With the buffered reverse pivot grab..
Ivy, Chari, Snake, Yoshi.

Might be more, think I added a few wrong.

is at the edge only and requires much stricter timing. Still a bad matchup.

dk ddd without the infinite and small step is probably only -3, maybe even -2.

Without the cg it's even. Without the infinite and small step it's probably -1.

fix'd that for you.

No Lp, just no.

LOL.

Fairly certain Wofl doesn't get infinited by DDD, I could be wrong though.

You are wrong. At the edge only though.

Dedede can infinite Wolf on edges if he has the right spacing.

^

What? Read what he posted. It's without the infinite or small step. So he doesn't need just one grab.

DKs downB > everything Dedede has grounded except sideB. Aerial Dedede sucks vs DK. DK also ***** Dededes recovery really easily if he manages to get a grab himself (he can cargo dtoss D3 offstage then start edgeguarding). Dedede is even easier to edgeguard than Snake lol.

Lp is right.