Official BBR Tier List v7

[DewDaDash]

I can never tell if you and raptor are being serious or joking with me. NY produces some gdlk trolls.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I can never tell if you and raptor are being serious or joking with me. NY produces some gdlk trolls.

This might help you sort out your confusion

 

[pidgezero_one]

congratulations shiny mewtwo, you just gave me my 100th like

as a prize and thank-you to all my loyal fans here on smashboards, here is an autographed picture of me doing my favourite pastime

Spoiler

 

[infiniteV115]

XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX, you are the greatest poster in this thread.

Also, hehehehehehehehehe. "Du De"

Edit: Ninja'd. That's a strange looking poutine. And you were definitely right about not looking like ZSS

 

[pidgezero_one]

XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX, you are the greatest poster in this thread.

Also, hehehehehehehehehe. "Du De"

thank you thank you! here is what fans are saying about XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX:
"When XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX is posting, it's like every day is 4/20! A++ would read again" - some guy who totally exists

 

[Dekillsage]

I can never tell if you and raptor are being serious or joking with me. NY produces some gdlk trolls.

Not trolling. You ever been dthrown competently?

 

[B0NK]

Snake D3 is even or in Snake's favor. I talked to both Vex and Atomsk about it.

You can add Coney to that list IIRC

I can never tell if you and raptor are being serious or joking with me. NY produces some gdlk trolls.

We are completely serious in our opinions on the tier list and match-ups. Not that we all agree with each other. Also NY's troll have nothing on MD/VA's

All of you who say it's D3's advantage makes me

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

.

.

God dammit you two are literally killing me

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Dekillsage, It can't really be punished on reaction. It just seems like it. I do agree that the DDD player really has to mix up his rolls, get ups and get up attacks though. Both characters live forever but DDD can rack up damage faster. The reason why Snake might have an advantage is only because there are really no top level DDDs left.

 

[Seagull Joe]

wins +1. That much is certain.

 

[Dekillsage]

@Dekillsage, It can't really be punished on reaction. It just seems like it. I do agree that the DDD player really has to mix up his rolls, get ups and get up attacks though. Both characters live forever but DDD can rack up damage faster. The reason why Snake might have an advantage is only because there are really no top level DDDs left.

It can. I've done it to all the ddd's I've played. At the very least snake will land dash attack punishing a forward roll. Every other option is free because snake doesn't have to block get up attack.

wins +1. That much is certain.

nah.

 

[bubbaking]

Y**** the same goes for DDD when he gets Dthrown. He does get up attack away from snake first making it complete *** vs snake. Everything can be punished on reaction after dthrow, as long as you can boost grab forward rolls. Not to mention ddd has trouble getting back on the stage himself vs snake on certain stages( Bf, lylat, fd)

Looolz! What DDDs are you playing against who always get up attack first? Ask Jrugs or any other Snake who's played me a bit. My first reaction to being dthrown is always to just get up > utilt. It rarely fails. The utilt gives DDD invincibility during its startup, so it usually just punishes Snake for trying stuff.

Snake can't kill DDD at near-0 from a grab release. DDD CAN do that to Snake. Don't tell me that it doesn't happen to good Snakes because I did it to Fatal (he didn't die because he C4'd himself but I could have easily swallow-released him out of his Cypher; I just lacked the balls to do it back then). That is what Jebus means by mix-ups at the ledge after the huge CG. We can fthrow for good damage, dthrow for damage and you low offstage (can also be followed up with ftilt for damage or dtilt for the kill, depending on our distance from the ledge), or just pummel release to put you in the worst possible spot you could be. In other words, yes, both chars edgeguard each other really hard and I ALWAYS say that, but DDD can actually gimp Snake. The MU is either even or +1 DDD.

You put way too much stock into Snake's dthrow. I almost never have trouble with that move. I guess more DDDs should just get-up utilt. It's fast, easy, and Snakes never see it coming for some reason. Your post here kinda supports that.

All of you who say it's D3's advantage makes me

Then why is the Snake panel arguing that the MU is +1 for DDD when the DDD panel tried to change the MU to 0. The DDDs acknowledge the 'evenness' of that MU more than the Snakes do, apparently.

It can. I've done it to all the ddd's I've played. At the very least snake will land dash attack punishing a forward roll. Every other option is free because snake doesn't have to block get up attack.

This raises the question: What DDDs do you play? My experience at the various Impacts and smashfests told me I was the only DDD main on LI who consistently played mostly solo DDD, and a large portion of my matches weren't even won with DDD.

 

[-LzR-]

Wow Bubbaking he mean't that when Ddd uses get up attack he first kicks away from Snake so Snake doesn't need to shield it without reacting to it. This is a HUGE advantage.

 

[Illuvial]

If Utilt is your only valid option in that situation a decent Snake player will punish that attack accordingly or Dthrow and setup traps while you get up and Utilt, which puts Snake in an advantageous position by default.

As for what could punish your Utilt upon wake-up,Snake's Utilt comes to mind... Which is ironic in a sense.

Makes me wonder what Snakes YOU are facing if they have trouble adapting to simple options.

My opinion on the MU as a whole is even, so I am not trying to say Snake has the advantage. If it is +1 DDD's favor then it is a 55:45 or closer MU.

 

[-LzR-]

You will rarely get an opportunity to get up -> utilt a good Snake. He will just react to your getup and just regrab you. He doesn't need to watch out for get up attack for the reason I just mentioned.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wait, can we go back to talking about how Pikachu players still think Pikachu has a good match-up vs MK when 80%+ of the best Pikachu's sets vs MK in the past year have been losses? There's a post in the MU chart backroom where someone went through all of ESAM's sets vs. MK and found that not only did he lose a vast, vast majority of them but most of his single-match wins had one or more early Thunder kills which should really never happen.

Pikachu is a good character but 4th in the game is not reasonable. I get that ESAM is confident and has lots of swag but what players and characters are able to do is just much more important than what they say they think they can do. It's true for Marth and it's true for Pikachu and it's true for every character. Please don't take what top players say at face value. They're smart, talented guys but they are not infallible and their opinions are not gospel, nor are anyone's.

 

[-LzR-]

Wait has someone seriously said Pika should be 4th?

 

[Shaya]

Some say third. Or at least used to.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes, sorry. Meant to say 6th (referring to Zero's list, got tripped up with how he labeled characters within tiers). But some people still think he's 3rd or 4th, which is outrageous.

 

[B0NK]

Looolz! What DDDs are you playing against who always get up attack first? Ask Jrugs or any other Snake who's played me a bit. My first reaction to being dthrown is always to just get up > utilt. It rarely fails. The utilt gives DDD invincibility during its startup, so it usually just punishes Snake for trying stuff.

He was saying because D3 has to get-up attack away from Snake, he doesn't have to shield, making it easier for Snake to react and punish D3 for rolling away, into him, or get up in front of him since Snake doesn't have to worry about shield drop lag. And when you use get up, you are vulnerable at the end of you're get-up. It's the reason jab and hobbling reset's work. So don't try and say a Snake is not capable of grabbing your get up on reactions when ICs and other characters do it for there locks and CGs. He can react to your get-up and get-up attack in the exact same way, and it would cover both options. The Up-tilt does nothing to stop the get up vulnerability frames. You aren't the first D3 to think of that, they've been doing it since 08, and they've been punished for it since 08.

And Jrugs is not a Top 5 Snake, he likely isn't even Top 10. (Show me his results that say otherwise). So mentioning him doesn't reinforce your argument. And I can't ask those other Snakes you mentioned because you didn't named them and they are probably worst than Jrugs or don't even exist.

Then why is the Snake panel arguing that the MU is +1 for DDD when the DDD panel tried to change the MU to 0. The DDDs acknowledge the 'evenness' of that MU more than the Snakes do, apparently.

Still makes me

I trust the word of Coney, Atomsk, and Vex more than DewDaDash and you. I could care less what D3's Dekillsage has played when the Top D3s tell me the same.

 

[Illuvial]

Wait has someone seriously said Pika should be 4th?

ESAM used to, I am not sure if he still thinks that though.

 

[Dekillsage]

Looolz! What DDDs are you playing against who always get up attack first? Ask Jrugs or any other Snake who's played me a bit. My first reaction to being dthrown is always to just get up > utilt. It rarely fails. The utilt gives DDD invincibility during its startup, so it usually just punishes Snake for trying stuff.

Snake can't kill DDD at near-0 from a grab release. DDD CAN do that to Snake. Don't tell me that it doesn't happen to good Snakes because I did it to Fatal (he didn't die because he C4'd himself but I could have easily swallow-released him out of his Cypher; I just lacked the balls to do it back then). That is what Jebus means by mix-ups at the ledge after the huge CG. We can fthrow for good damage, dthrow for damage and you low offstage (can also be followed up with ftilt for damage or dtilt for the kill, depending on our distance from the ledge), or just pummel release to put you in the worst possible spot you could be. In other words, yes, both chars edgeguard each other really hard and I ALWAYS say that, but DDD can actually gimp Snake. The MU is either even or +1 DDD.

You put way too much stock into Snake's dthrow. I almost never have trouble with that move. I guess more DDDs should just get-up utilt. It's fast, easy, and Snakes never see it coming for some reason. Your post here kinda supports that.


Then why is the Snake panel arguing that the MU is +1 for DDD when the DDD panel tried to change the MU to 0. The DDDs acknowledge the 'evenness' of that MU more than the Snakes do, apparently.


This raises the question: What DDDs do you play? My experience at the various Impacts and smashfests told me I was the only DDD main on LI who consistently played mostly solo DDD, and a large portion of my matches weren't even won with DDD.

I really hate reading your posts about things that don't work. If DDD does get up ->utilt and it hits then the snake player ****ed up hard. Ask Jrugs? No offense to him but hes not a good snake player(still my boi tho). You have to understand if you did get up I already put you back down on the ground.

DDD can't gimp snake. He can hit him over and over but gimping doesn't happen without inhale.
Also Fatal is one of the worst players I've ever seen play the DDD match up. When you're double jumping towards a ddd because your playstyle is go all in... that's a problem.

I don't care if you never have trouble with snakes dthrowing you. Because chances are you never played a player who actually understood how to do it vs your character. Snake mains still can't do it vs toonlink because they never bothered to learn.

I don't care what the snake panels opinions are. They put ike and zss at even apparently. Watch them put toonlink and kirby at even too.

I've already answered your question on the ddd's I've played. I've gotten my practice from HelpR in the DDD match up @ sessions. I've played Vex, Jband in tournament and I played iLove in a money match/friendlies at apex. Whenever I played the match up right vs all of these guys the match was always slightly in my favor. I did lose to vex and jband, but I lost to them both because of the stage and not because they outplayed me. Not to say they wouldn't have outplayed me, but that's how it was.

This match up is 55-45 snake favor. Dthrow is enough to put it in our favor, in combination with many other things.

 

[DewDaDash]

I trust the word of Coney, Atomsk, and Vex more than DewDaDash and you. I could care less what D3's Dekillsage has played when the Top D3s tell me the same.

so why don't you trust my word :l

Also Fatal is one of the worst players I've ever seen play the DDD match up. When you're double jumping towards a ddd because your playstyle is go all in... that's a problem.

pls just stahp

 

[Dekillsage]

so why don't you trust my word :l

pls just stahp

Wait... you think fatal is good at the ddd match up?
done with you

Edit: I'm not saying Fatal is bad. A ton of things I do I learned from watching Fatal. His style however isn't very good vs ddd.

 

[B0NK]

so why don't you trust my word :l

I trust your opinion on the Snake match-up less than those of Coney, Atomsk, and Vex because I know they have more Snake experience from a variety of Snake players than you do. I trust that your opinion is otherwise, but I do not agree with it and I'm backed up by three D3 players that are better than you. In short, I trust you, but still don't believe you're right and I believe if you have more experience with more players your opinion would change to an opinion similar to those of Coney, Atomsk, and Vex. (One day if you surpass them, its even a possibility you can prove them, myself, and others wrong. Still don't believe it will happen as of now, so go and prove us wrong.)

 

[DewDaDash]

tbh im pretty sure Ive played more top snake players than them, well maybe besides atomsk but I've played my fair share.

 

[B0NK]

I'd have to double check, but with how much you travel to play I'm not doubting you. If I may ask, who were the top snakes you've played and what are your records against them?

 

[ぱみゅ]

>2013
>people still saying they trust top players' opinions more than well-structured posts

 

[ShadowLink84]

Kyokoro, you sound almost surprised.

 

[B0NK]

>2013
>people still saying they trust top players' opinions more than well-structured posts

Nope, I formulate my own opinion on match-ups based off of matches I've seen, my own analysis of the tools each character has against each other, and then compare them with the thoughts of top players to insure I have not missed something big, since they have much more experience in the match-up than a majority of players.

It just so happens that my opinion is the same as top D3 players for the Snake match-up.

If I was to look at my thoughts on ICs match-ups, my opinion does not agree with Vinnie's and Nakat's but does in general agree with Delux's.

You can't say a well-structured post is always to be trusted more than interviews with top players. (I am fortunate enough to be able to talk to these players in person at tournaments). Well-structured post posted here often have mis-information or poor arguments. Even worst, half the time those arguments are formulated with little experience in the match-up. If one does not have experience in the match-up, who should they ask to formulate a better opinion on the match-up?

My answer is that they should discuss it with the players who have the most experience in the match-up with a wide variety of opponents.

The well structured post here are sometimes as incorrect as top players are when the top player has not had enough experience in a match-up.

 

[pidgezero_one]

****, I made a well structured post that advocated a tier list based on complete ****ing stupidity. pidge for BBR 2013

 

[Jabejazz]

>2013
>people still saying they trust top players' opinions more than well-structured posts

also Misha is best girl

****, I made a well structured post that advocated a tier list based on complete ****ing stupidity. pidge for BBR 2013

2013 : Year of the sudoku tier list.

 

[Cassio]

Wait, can we go back to talking about how Pikachu players still think Pikachu has a good match-up vs MK when 80%+ of the best Pikachu's sets vs MK in the past year have been losses? There's a post in the MU chart backroom where someone went through all of ESAM's sets vs. MK and found that not only did he lose a vast, vast majority of them but most of his single-match wins had one or more early Thunder kills which should really never happen.

Pikachu is a good character but 4th in the game is not reasonable. I get that ESAM is confident and has lots of swag but what players and characters are able to do is just much more important than what they say they think they can do. It's true for Marth and it's true for Pikachu and it's true for every character. Please don't take what top players say at face value. They're smart, talented guys but they are not infallible and their opinions are not gospel, nor are anyone's.

I believe Zero had him at 6th, 4th in top tier but 6th overall.

Now Im not saying that theres an intentionally bad bias about pikas kill, but I think when peeps look at matches they tend to focus on the character they know more, peeps understand MK more so when MK dies at 90-100% they like to call BS/gimmicks. But when pika dies at 70% to glide attack at the top of the screen, 100% from dashing into a charged fsmash, 50% to random shuttle loop or somethin like that its MK being a good character with lots of tools, lol. Pika should be living to about 150% in the MU. MK should probably be living to 120%. Both characters have strong tools that can kill their opponent early in certain situations, and MK is especially susceptible to Pikas compared to most other good characters. It's just part of the MU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nInvaKa7PrY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3OondJpqQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtgNZJxRUlc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poKaItNc6IU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDIelLkl8wk

I understand theres a small sample of good pikas, but theres also not much consistency when peeps deal with pikas MUs. If we focused on just results, pika would have a -1 with MK, ICs, Peach, Diddy (maybe -2 for diddy); 0 with ROB and Olimar; and beat everyone else. I think thats useful as well and If you want you can view pikas MUs that way, but so is analysis and its more consistent with how MUs are generally determined.

 

[Illuvial]

>2013
>people still saying they trust top players' opinions more than well-structured posts

I can't say I blame those people though. If a professional basketball player tells me my technique for shooting free throws is off and tells me how they do it, I will generally listen to that person due to their title.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I thought "well-structured post" implies it is reasonable and doesn't include any kind of misinformation.

My point being: Get your own opinions.
They don't mean less because you disagree with top players.
Overrating or underrating stuff is inherent to opinions and will always be valued different from person to person.
Opinions mean less only when they are based on untrue reasonings.
I have no idea how to refute JigglyDuDe's Tier List under these criteria tho.... maybe the fact those mean less as they don't consider hitboxes, which are a pretty important part of the game.

I can't say I blame those people though. If a professional basketball player tells me my technique for shooting free throws is off and tells me how they do it, I will generally listen to that person due to their title.

A top player can tell you your technique is wrong, that you misspaced or that you can buffer certain guaranteed combos or cool mindgames or mixups.
Their MU opinions are still opinions

[Insert M2K's opinions on which characters beat MK]

 

[pidgezero_one]

My point being: Get your own opinions.

Holy ****, best advice for this thread ever


(not trolling with this post)

 

[Coney]

ddd beating snake is guided by the same bull**** antiquated notion it was since the start of the game

"um u can cg him!"

i'll admit i suck now and have sucked for a long time but 4 real, snakes found out how to beat ddd a long time ago

 

[pidgezero_one]

I have no idea how to refute JigglyDuDe's Tier List under these criteria tho....

I'd say "she calculated the tier list based on what would be the most annoying changes possible" is a good refutation

 

[B0NK]

My point being: Get your own opinions.

Been had them, thanks for the advice though

 

[Illuvial]

I am sure a lot of people's opinions just happen to be the same as top players opinions.

And way to miss the point of my post, good stuff.