Official BBR Tier List v7

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

God tier
1.- Ice Climbers
2.- MetaKnigh
Top tier

1.- DiddyKong
2.- Olimar
3.- Marth
4.- Pikachu
5.- Snake
6.- ZeroSuitSamus
7.- DeDeDe
High tier

1- Falco
2.- Lucario
3.- Wario
4.- Toon Link
5.- Peach
6.- Wolf
7.- Fox
8.- GW

Ladies and Gentlemen, the TAS tier list

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Besides of Ics and MK, it is not.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Besides of Ics and MK, it is not.

Well, since you used TAS theory for MK and ICs, any other time you mentioned a character being boosted or held back by the MK or ICs MU that put them into TAS theory-land as well, and then when those characters were mentioned that put the character mentioning them into TAS as well.

I'm sure I could go back through your post and make all the connections, but frankly I don't care enough to do so

 

[Illuvial]

What he said about Climbers is true though, and the only reason others don't put Climbers at the top is because not even top Climbers like 9B, Kakera and ESAM have played consistently and godly enough to bring out the inner TAS.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Well, since you used TAS theory for MK and ICs, any other time you mentioned a character being boosted or held back by the MK or ICs MU that put them into TAS theory-land as well, and then when those characters were mentioned that put the character mentioning them into TAS as well.

I'm sure I could go back through your post and make all the connections, but frankly I don't care enough to do so

This is a useless post. You're simply trying to act smart with me ("I don't care enough to prove it to you, but you're like wrong, ya know"), and you're not providing information to this discussion. I never said this is 'ABSOLUTE TRUE TIER LIST'. It's my opinion, and contribution to this discussion so we can find a good middle-place that we can all agree on. That's my goal. To get to know opinions and form something we can all agree on.

 

[Illuvial]

Zero, you have to understand that Shiny Mewtwo is always going to be that guy that always jokes around and acts like a smart ass, but his statement has merit so you can't just disregard it completely.

Long story short, never take anything Shiny says seriously.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ICs brokenly best? Not with the stagelist son.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

This is a useless post. You're simply trying to act smart with me ("I don't care enough to prove it to you, but you're like wrong, ya know"), and you're not providing information to this discussion. I never said this is 'ABSOLUTE TRUE TIER LIST'. It's my opinion, and contribution to this discussion so we can find a good middle-place that we can all agree on. That's my goal. To get to know opinions and form something we can all agree on.

Alright, you've provoked me, Challenge accepted:

To start, your analysis of MK and ICs use TAS theory (as admitted by yourself "Besides of Ics and MK, it is not.")

Your analysis of Diddy Kong mentions that he loses to MK and ICs, putting him in TAS land

Same with your analysis of Olimar, while also being compared to Diddy, putting him in TAS land

You say "Marth can beat anyone in the cast" which include MK and ICs, putting him in TAS land

You make a specific point that Pika can beat ICs, putting him in TAs land

With Snake, you say that he can lose to any top tier, which is all the characters previously mentioned (as well as ZSS and D3), allowing him to join them in TAS land

ZSS is mentioned in the Snake analysis, putting her into TAS land (this one is weak, i admit)

You say D3 can beat anyone, but loses to MK, while specifically mentioning that he can beat ICs and Pika, putting him in TAS land

With Falco, you mention "Auto lose MUs" with Pika and ICs, and those MUs are only "auto lose" in TAS land

Lucario has "Winnable MUs with MK and ICs" putting him in TAS land

You say Wario can beat MK, while Toon Link cannot, putting them both in TAS land.

Also for Toon Link, you mention a winnable MU vs ICs, putting him in TAS land again

For Peach and GW, you use the ICs MU for both of them, putting them in TAS land

Same with Wolf and Fox, the ICs MU is used as an important part of their placement in your list, putting them in TAS land.

also, although not given a spot on your list, you mention Pit losing to ICs, putting him in TAS

Also, you can't say my post was "a useless post" seeing as you asked for my thoughts and I provided them. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them useless.

****, I put way too much effort into this. Congratulation Zero, for making me get off my lazy ass and actually put in work to try and accomplish something.

 

[Illuvial]

ICs brokenly best? Not with the stagelist son.

Dat lack of Brinstar though...

 

[smashkng]

I agree with the lower tiered placing of Falco than Diddy and such. He is very good at every MU but those 2. Characters like Diddy don't need secondaries while Falco does, which is a great argument of why Falco should be in a lower tier than the few top tiers that don't have any bad MUs.

 

[Jabejazz]

Dedede is like top character because he has a hammer. It's only normal ICs are god tier, since they have 2.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Alright, you've provoked me, Challenge accepted:

To start, your analysis of MK and ICs use TAS theory (as admitted by yourself "Besides of Ics and MK, it is not.")

Your analysis of Diddy Kong mentions that he loses to MK and ICs, putting him in TAS land

Same with your analysis of Olimar, while also being compared to Diddy, putting him in TAS land

You say "Marth can beat anyone in the cast" which include MK and ICs, putting him in TAS land

You make a specific point that Pika can beat ICs, putting him in TAs land

With Snake, you say that he can lose to any top tier, which is all the characters previously mentioned (as well as ZSS and D3), allowing him to join them in TAS land

ZSS is mentioned in the Snake analysis, putting her into TAS land (this one is weak, i admit)

You say D3 can beat anyone, but loses to MK, while specifically mentioning that he can beat ICs and Pika, putting him in TAS land

With Falco, you mention "Auto lose MUs" with Pika and ICs, and those MUs are only "auto lose" in TAS land

Lucario has "Winnable MUs with MK and ICs" putting him in TAS land

You say Wario can beat MK, while Toon Link cannot, putting them both in TAS land.

Also for Toon Link, you mention a winnable MU vs ICs, putting him in TAS land again

For Peach and GW, you use the ICs MU for both of them, putting them in TAS land

Same with Wolf and Fox, the ICs MU is used as an important part of their placement in your list, putting them in TAS land.

also, although not given a spot on your list, you mention Pit losing to ICs, putting him in TAS

Also, you can't say my post was "a useless post" seeing as you asked for my thoughts and I provided them. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them useless.

****, I put way too much effort into this. Congratulation Zero, for making me get off my lazy *** and actually put in work to try and accomplish something.

You simply said what I said, then said 'Tas land'. Where's the discussion here? It's you simply saying this is Tas land.

And well, you simply came and said 'Well you're wrong, and I'm too lazy to say why', what's the use in that? I respect everyone's opinion, and I'm completely open to any suggestions.... but if people don't argue with proof to what I'm saying, then there's no use for me to even post this.

I didn't said I didn't liked them or anything... in FB people are commenting things I don't agree with, but I don't call them useless or anything. I want people to tell me WHY they don't agree with me.

Example: Zero, your view point of X thing is wrong, because of A, B, C and you also forget that X event happened, etc.

That's what I want. Not people flaming me because they don't agree with me, or simply saying 'I don't agree'.


EDIT: NICK RIDDLE IS IN THE THREAD. I FEEL MY TIER LIST IS GOING TO GET ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED NOW.

That's good though!

 

[Jabejazz]

You simply said what I said, then said 'Tas land'. Where's the discussion here? It's you simply saying this is Tas land.
And well, you simply came and said 'Well you're wrong, and I'm too lazy to say why', what's the use in that? I respect everyone's opinion, and I'm completely open to any suggestions.... but if people don't argue with proof to what I'm saying, then there's no use for me to even post this.
I didn't said I didn't liked them or anything... in FB people are commenting things I don't agree with, but I don't call them useless or anything. I want people to tell me WHY they don't agree with me.
Example: Zero, your view point of X thing is wrong, because of A, B, C and you also forget that X event happened, etc.
That's what I want. Not people flaming me because they don't agree with me, or simply saying 'I don't agree'.

I believe what Mewtwo means is simply that you first mentioned that ICs are god tier if we consider the player using them is perfect in his inputs. Hence the "TAS land". Then by comparing every chracter to IC, you implicitly say that they are also played at a "frame-perfect" level, otherwise, your comparison wouldn't hold water.

I can't argue with you here, you clearly have more experience than I ever will have. And your tier list might be true, at a "TAS land" level. But considering nobody plays perfect for the duration of a single given set, it's hard to believe it will ever be an accurtate representation of what v.8 could remotely look like.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I just saw your post and avatar, I laughed at both lol.

Ahhhhhhh, thanks for the explanation there. Now that's some land where we can talk about. But I'll wait for Mewtwo himself to argue with me, since I want to know exactly what he doesn't agree with.

Doesn't matter, you still can! Every opinion counts

And yeah probably.

 

[Iota]

I would honestly put Wario a good deal lower then what Zero put him if we were factoring in tas level spacing and timing. His options become much more limited (i.e. they become ineffective) when people can play a perfect reaction game to his approaches.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Dedede is like top character because he has a hammer. It's only normal ICs are god tier, since they have 2.

#kirbyforbtier2013

 

[Illuvial]

> Says he wants discussion
> Doesn't reply to my question of why DeDeDe is top tier

What am I not good enough for you Zero :, (

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Ahhhhhhh, thanks for the explanation there. Now that's some land where we can talk about. But I'll wait for Mewtwo himself to argue with me, since I want to know exactly what he doesn't agree with.

Jabejazz pretty much explained what I meant perfectly.

tbh, I was only pointing the flaws in your thinking, if I really wanted to actually argue against some of your placements, I would focus on calling ICs and Pikachu "auto lose" MUs for Falco.

I can see ICs being Auto lose, if the Falco gets impatient and the ICs plays *near* perfectly, but there is absolutely no way that Pikachu is "auto lose". I've played a Pikachu, who did know the CG and is a better player than I am, and I won the Bo3 MM 2-1. I lost game 1 because I played really impatiently, but for game 2 and 3 I just abused Falco's superior camping game (lasers and reflector) and superior CQC (ie Jab ) to avoid the grab (which wasn't too difficult, tbh) and was able to win. It was still very close (both games were last hit) but I managed to win. Now, I'm in no way saying that my one set should have any major weight when determing MUs and tier lists, but I do think it's enough to prove that the MU isn't Auto lose. Falco has the tools to deal with Pikachu (and ICs too, although not as well), but he just has to work a LOT harder.

 

[infiniteV115]

I can see ICs being Auto lose, if the Falco gets impatient and the ICs plays *near* perfectly, but there is absolutely no way that Pikachu is "auto lose". I've played a Pikachu, who did know the CG and is a better player than I am, and I won the Bo3 MM 2-1.

Who the **** O.o

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Who the **** O.o

Mprime, I lost an MK ditto MM then won Falco vs Pika

 

[Seagull Joe]

Maybe he knows the Cg, but sucks with .

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Ct zero, correct me if I'm wrong but the only thing that you talked about from a tas standpoint in any way was ice climbers. in our reality where would you move him if not assuming tas. I'm assuming just down one tier to still god tier but just below mk. This is where I think shiny mewtwo misunderstood your list. Your tas comment only effected one character and doesn't really change his position that much meaning extrapolating the tas through the whole list isn't really an accurate representation.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS has no trouble against Dedede
Marth is bad(ish). There's nothing secret about him. Marth players are fine, Marth himself isn't that great.
Pikachu can't beat MK. ESAM likes to say he can, but rarely takes sets off good MK players. Last year his record was overwhelmingly negative.
Dedede in top tier is lulzy.

Pikachu is crazy overrated. Best Pikachu uses ICs has a secondary and uses it often when he loses with Pikachu... which is a little like using MK as a secondary, and says a lot.

 

[Muhti]

Dedede is like top character because he has a hammer. It's only normal ICs are god tier, since they have 2.

You made my night.

 

[infiniteV115]

Maybe he knows the Cg, but sucks with .

I'm not even sure he knows the CG XD

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

He definitely knows the CG.

 

[Illuvial]

After seeing OCEAN place 9th as ROB at Apex 2012 I am willing to believe that Mewtwo beat down a solid Pikachu with Falco.

 

[infiniteV115]

He's definitely not a 'solid Pikachu'. I'm trying to stress this without trying to sound insulting, but...he really isn't. I'm surprised he can do the CG.
SM isn't exactly a top level player either (not yet, anyway). I have multiple supporting arguments for both of these that I could bring up but I don't really want to sound like a ****, and it's not exactly necessary when I know SM agrees with me.

 

[Illuvial]

Oh, I didn't see the post where Shiny said what Pikachu he beat. Mprime... Never heard of him...

 

[Seagull Joe]

The cg with on is ridiculously easy. You have literally 10 frames to buffer the re-grab...

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's how buffered CGs work... and buffering in general...

 

[KillerAP]

He's definitely not a 'solid Pikachu'. I'm trying to stress this without trying to sound insulting, but...he really isn't. I'm surprised he can do the CG.
SM isn't exactly a top level player either (not yet, anyway). I have multiple supporting arguments for both of these that I could bring up but I don't really want to sound like a ****, and it's not exactly necessary when I know SM agrees with me.

jale

 

[GOofyGV]

Brawl tier list opinion (Taken from my post at the BBR). This is for the v8 tier list.

I'll only make a list within god tier, top tier and high tier. I really don't care about low tiers and mid tiers.

God tier

1.- Ice Climbers (Best character in the game if your tech skill is up there, no mistakes, equals, impossible to lose. Forced to approach them eventually, sick desyncs setups, and stomp most of the cast and BEAT Meta Knight if they don't make mistakes). This is similar to Fox being the best in Melee. Results don't show wise, but potentially, technically wise, HE is the best. Same case here. (And Falco is MK in Melee. Super good and beats everyone, and is considered the best, but isn't the best).

2.- MetaKnight (Second best) (Beats anyone but IC's, who doesn't lose to anyone if they play correctly).

This could be true but the tierlist reflects the current meta game. And I think currently MK is the better character.


Top tier

1.- DiddyKong (Loses to Ice Climbers, and barely loses to MK. Can infinite everyone but DeDeDe, and has lots of setups to do it. Ex Zinoto. And has proven to win nationals, ex, ADHD.).

I believe Diddy can infinite D3. However he can't infinite IC's (when they are together), Squirtle (he is to small) and Luigi (Because of his weird trip)

2.- Olimar (Next best is Olimar, who loses to Meta Knight and Ice Climbers but is also a tiny bit inferior to Diddy Kong as a character).

3.- Marth (Secretly broken. Next best so far. Tons of potential, and we can see SOME of it with Mikeneko, but he needs to more to raise Marth more. Olimar and Diddy have proven a lot so far, Marth hasn't. Marth can beat anyone in the cast.

I agree with this. Olimar and Diddy is kind of a toss up Both can be 3th.

4.- Pikachu can beat everyone, even IC's, but loses to Olimar, but that's why he's below Marth, who can beat Olimar, and has a very good MU spread.

Idk about Pikachu. ESAM proves that he is really viable but I would love to see other players doing so well with Pikachu.

5.- Snake (Can lose to any top tier, and doesn't really beat any top tier but Diddy -by a tiny bit-. Inferior than all the chars listed above him, but a tiny bit superior than the ones below him. He can kill from anything, even grabs, does well in almost all MU's, but not excellent. Doesn't auto lose vs anyone. Snake can beat Olimar, but ZSS loses to Olimar. This is why Snake is above ZSS. They both equally have trouble with D3 as well, but the fact that Snake does decent vs Olimar, puts him in a superior spot.

I think Snake does worse vs Olimar then zss but I'm not sure about that. He also has a hard time vs Pikachu. I also think both Snake and ZSS go kind of eve nvs D3. agree with everything else.

6.- ZeroSuitSamus (I've always said she was top tier, but well, people didn't believe until they saw/played Salem). The char has its limitations, and once you know the MU, she gets wrecked in certain scenarios, and can't do anything. Like Snake.

it's true that ZSS has a really solid MU spread. I agree.

7.- DeDeDe (Can beat anyone in the cast but Meta Knight, who nullifies him with mix ups.) Bad MU's with most of the top tiers, except Marth/ZSS make him the worst top tier. He does decent/not so good vs everyone, but CAN beat them. Superior to Lucario, since more solid MU's and even beats him. That's why he is above Lucario. He can beat Pikachu and Ice Climbers, which Falco can't. This is why DeDeDe is better than Falco MU wise, and tournament wise, better. (Falco is a better char than him, but tourney wise, no). This is why D3 is superior to Falco.

I don't agree here. Dedede has pretty bad to really bad mu's vs MK, IC's, Olimar. I actually think Diddy is really doable for him though. I think he isn't better then falco.

High tier

This tier list is full of chars that simply can't beat the center characters, or most popular ones, or have auto lose MU's.

1- Falco In a metagame that relies on people shielding a lot (he can't kill), grabs (awful position for him, since his recovery sucks) and an AUTO lose MU vs Ice Climbers (Impossible to not run into one in big tourneys) and Pikachu. All of this make him the worse than D3, who can beat everyone but MK (Who Falco can beat) and unviable in tournament when solo'ed. Still better than everyone else below him, though. Thing is, D3 can beat MK's who don't know the MU, or PUT SOME FIGHT. Falco simply can't do ANYTHING to Ice Climbers and Pikachu.

Although I agree with what you are saying I still think Falco is at least better then Dedede. Add to that that Falco actually goes even or beats Olimar and Diddy which D3 doesn't

Bottom line: Salem: Falco SUCKS, l0l.

Lol

2.- Lucario Trela's proven the char's potential, and both Trela and Junebug proved that its possible to beat MK (M2K). However, Lucario loses to Snake, Olimar, DeDeDe, disadvantageous but winnable MU vs MK and IC's and is also inferior to everyone above him. But superior than everyone below him. Results wise, he's done MUCH more than EVERYONE below him, and has a better MU spread then Wario, and the others.

3.- Wario He has never proven a single thing, and both Abadango and Gluttony came up short when they travelled to compete in the US. Wario loses to every single top tier, and Falco. Below Lucario because results-wise he is done much worse. Super than everyone below him character wise. Wario doesn't have AWFUL match ups, but simply doesn't win any important one, he is always having a 'Small disadvantage). Much more tools, better MU spread and more solid than TL. That's why he is above TL. He also can beat everyone that TL beats, and can beat MK, who TL can't. He would be above Falco, however, Falco has won nationals, and has shown much more solid results than him, ever. Same as Lucario.

4.- Toon Link Very good in doubles and decent in Singles, and has proven to do some things here and there. Superior than GW and Peach. Much more solid, and more options. He can beat IC's and Olimar, he has the tools, but loses those MU's regardless. He has a better Snake MU than Peach which puts him higher than her in the tier list. Even though he does better than Falco vs Ice Climbers and Pikachu, but loses to MK who Falco beats, he simply doesn't have the tourney results to BE above the chars that are above him. There's potential, however.... nothing to back it up. That's he is BELOW Falco, Lucario, Wario and TL.

I think I agree with this. Lucario is indeed pretty solid. Wario had 3 mu's that hold him down but all 3 of them are doable.

Both Peach and GW suck, but so far... we haven't seen anything from both. Only char who's taken a set off of something to look upon on is Illmatic beating ESAM once and Vinnie beating Esam with Peach, but that just means Esam himself struggles vs Peach.


But for this.... Peach has done better than GW. And SiiS6 results (Nicole 2nd) is better than everything GW has done before. She also doesn't insta lose vs Olimar and IC's like GW does, which obviously makes her much more solid. She also doesn't insta loses to IC's and Pikachu like Fox, she can actually beat both.

So Peach is the best next.

5.- Peach

Peach has a terrible mk and snake mu. At least as bad as GAW vs IC's. She also loses to Falco, Marth, Diddy kong and doesn't beat Olimar or ZSS. I think Game % Watch is better.

6.- Wolf loses to Ice Climbers, Pikachu, and most top tiers, and D3. Same as Fox. That's why he is all the way below here. Thing is, he can put more of a fight vs most top tiers and Olimar/IC's than GW and a better fight vs Pikachu and IC's than Fox, who AUTO loses to both. That makes Wolf superior than GW MU wise and Fox and he is also a bit better than GW as a character. And more consistent than Fox. More solid and reliable than him, GW just hopes you run into his attacks, which he HAS to throw out in desesperate motions, sadly. Fox can't beat shield, and auto loses to the center of our metagame and best char, therefore... he is unviable.

Wolf actually has a decent IC mu. He loses to D3, Pika and Wario. Wario and Pika are both doable though. I think he can be better then Peach

7.- Fox Insta loses to Ice Climbers and Pikachu. Which makes him unviable in tournament play, sadly. And possesses less tools than Falco and Wolf. He is more solid of a char than Peach and Toon Link, but he just can't handle Pikachu and Ice Climbers, which both TL and Peach can. And they also have decent match ups too vs other top tiers (Nothing spectacular, neither Fox, who should lose to most top tiers).

Agree. Fox is just not viable. I don't think he's high tier either.

8.- GW (already epxlained why).

I think he is better then at least Fox.

Then it's mid tier.

So these are my opinions and my list for Top tier and High tier, thoughts?

Well I think that everything below TL and maybe even TL aren't high tier. I allready explained everything else. =)

(Pit hasn't done a SINGLE thing. Not even in Japan, besides of doubles. And loses to IC's, Snake, MK, DeDeDe, Marth, Diddy and Falco. Which obviously doesn't put him in a good spot). Not enough information to put him in a proper spot.

 

[Yikarur]

In my opinion a tier list shouldn't reflext the "current meta" it should reflect how good each character is in relation to the others. Otherwise we would never get a "complete tier list" because it could change every other day.
Well MK will probably stay at first forever with Ice Climbers beside him.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

He's definitely not a 'solid Pikachu'. I'm trying to stress this without trying to sound insulting, but...he really isn't. I'm surprised he can do the CG.
SM isn't exactly a top level player either (not yet, anyway). I have multiple supporting arguments for both of these that I could bring up but I don't really want to sound like a ****, and it's not exactly necessary when I know SM agrees with me.

Yeah I'm terrible at this game.

Also please, do bring up your supporting arguments (about me, anyway). I'm really interested in seeing them.

 

[pidgezero_one]

While we wait for infinite's reply, amuse yourselves with the musical stylings of XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX

 

[Supreme Dirt]

While we wait for infinite's reply, amuse yourselves with the musical stylings of XxJiGgLyPuFf_DuDe_420xX

you have slain me

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In my opinion a tier list shouldn't reflext the "current meta" it should reflect how good each character is in relation to the others. Otherwise we would never get a "complete tier list" because it could change every other day.
Well MK will probably stay at first forever with Ice Climbers beside him.

I see where you're coming from. I really do and I used to agree with you. But the reason the metagame is the way it is, is because it is to our knowledge, the best way to play the game. Brawl is very bait-and-punish oriented right now, which is why Snake isn't doing so well and ZSS is, for an example. It's possible this can change in the future and some weird character will suddenly thrive, but we don't know that it will. Making a list of strengths and weaknesses is totally irrelevant and it's why I don't like, say, Dark.pch's approach to tier lists. Sure, Snake is heavy and has a lot of stuff, but the game just isn't played in a way that takes advantage of that, and it's not, because we have learned over time that that the game is best played in other ways.

Metagames are a process of learning and elimination of strategies. When something doesn't work, people find something that does. Looking at a simple list of strengths and weaknesses and declaring that a character is good implies an additive or point-based system of quality which doesn't work. There are low tier characters that have dozens of incredible strengths but they don't place well at tournaments because their strengths are irrelevant.

How "good" a character is, can only really be measured in how much success they see and in no other real way because we can't see into the future and we don't know how applicable the strengths of each character are until we see them applied to the meta we play in. And again, I'll remind you that a meta isn't a randomly chosen list of stuff people do, but the accumulation of years of knowledge and experience up to the point we're at now. The metagame isn't just some temporary phase the game is going through, but the apex of Brawl as we know it.

People who have this view have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a metagame is and how meta progression works tbh.

Side note, but I also think expecting characters to win tournaments all the time to be considered "good" is irrational. Like Salem won Apex and went on to place top 2-3 in NJ for a few weeks, losing only to top MK players. I don't think I need to remind you that Brawl has a God Tier with 1 character in it (arguably 2) and that MK is God Tier because he is expected to win. Characters that don't win every tourney can still be good and still be a threat, but they aren't "expected" to win, we just know they can.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Can we talk about how Jigglypuff should be below Ganon on the tier list?

 

[BlueXenon]

I see where you're coming from. I really do and I used to agree with you. But the reason the metagame is the way it is, is because it is to our knowledge, the best way to play the game. Brawl is very bait-and-punish oriented right now, which is why Snake isn't doing so well and ZSS is, for an example. It's possible this can change in the future and some weird character will suddenly thrive, but we don't know that it will. Making a list of strengths and weaknesses is totally irrelevant and it's why I don't like, say, Dark.pch's approach to tier lists. Sure, Snake is heavy and has a lot of stuff, but the game just isn't played in a way that takes advantage of that, and it's not, because we have learned over time that that the game is best played in other ways.

Metagames are a process of learning and elimination of strategies. When something doesn't work, people find something that does. Looking at a simple list of strengths and weaknesses and declaring that a character is good implies an additive or point-based system of quality which doesn't work. There are low tier characters that have dozens of incredible strengths but they don't place well at tournaments because their strengths are irrelevant.

How "good" a character is, can only really be measured in how much success they see and in no other real way because we can't see into the future and we don't know how applicable the strengths of each character are until we see them applied to the meta we play in. And again, I'll remind you that a meta isn't a randomly chosen list of stuff people do, but the accumulation of years of knowledge and experience up to the point we're at now. The metagame isn't just some temporary phase the game is going through, but the apex of Brawl as we know it.

People who have this view have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a metagame is and how meta progression works tbh.

Side note, but I also think expecting characters to win tournaments all the time to be considered "good" is irrational. Like Salem won Apex and went on to place top 2-3 in NJ for a few weeks, losing only to top MK players. I don't think I need to remind you that Brawl has a God Tier with 1 character in it (arguably 2) and that MK is God Tier because he is expected to win. Characters that don't win every tourney can still be good and still be a threat, but they aren't "expected" to win, we just know they can.

This reminds me of what Zero said:
http://clashtournaments.com/?p=695