Official BBR Tier List v7

[Illuvial]

That was a great read! Great article ZeRo!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Can we talk about how Jigglypuff should be below Ganon on the tier list?

Jigglypuff will be below Ganon when MK is below Snake.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Hey guys, I have something neat to show you. No, it's not related to Moonbase in any way. Mods this may be relevant to your interests.

Okay, so I was pondering about the tier list voting thread, and was thinking about the constraints. Characters may not move more than 9 spots in either direction. I think that kinda sucks honestly, because (taking off the troll mask for a second) I think Jigglypuff should be Borderline tier. But anyway:

Those of you who know me somewhat well know that I'm about to graduate with a degree in industrial engineering in a few weeks. Those few of you who know what industrial engineering even is (seriously nobody seems to) might know that operations research (think mathematical modeling and optimization problems) is a huge part of it. And those of you who know me really REALLY well know that I used to be hardcore into operations research, in fact it used to be my degree specialty before I switched to human factors. But I digress.

We know that voting has the following restrictions:

• Shielda must be one place above Sheik.
• No character may more more than 9 spots in either direction.

I sat here wondering... "what could be the most chaotic legal tier list I could possibly vote with?" intending to vote with it.

So, I got to work. I constructed a mathematical model consisting of a 38x38 grid of 0's and 1's, each row representing a character, and each column representing a rank. Only one 1 was allowed per column and row (so, only 1 rank per character, only 1 character per rank).
The product of each row matrix (so, 1) and a row matrix consisting of all possible ranks (1-38) was calculated for each row, to output the numerical rank for each character. Each character row had a reference value of their current place in the tier list. I set up a constraint so that the absolute value of the matrix product minus the current tier list placing could not be greater than 9.
I then set up a separate constraint to show that Sheilda's placing always must be 1 less (higher) than Sheik's placing. This had to be factored in beforehand so that Sheilda's placing was included in the "don't move more than 9" for each character.
I then took the sum of all [matrix product minus current tier list placing] values, and set that as my target value to maximize, with the 38x38 binary matrix as the decision variables. Then I solved the model.

Basically, I determined what could be a legal tier list to vote with that has the maximum possible movement of characters. My solution had a total of 306 placing movements.

Ladies and gentlemen, here is the pidgezero_one tier list.
1. Wario
2. Lucario
3. ZSS
4. Toon Link
5. Wolf
6. Game & Watch
7. Fox
8. Peach
9. Meta Knight
10. ROB
11. Olimar
12. Diddy
13. Ice Climbers
14. Snake
15. Falco
16. Marth
17. Pikachu
18. Dedede
19. Shielda
20. Sheik
21. Lucas
22. Mario
23. Samus
24. Bowser
25. Pit
26. Kirby
27. Link
28. Zelda
29. Captain Falcon
30. Jigglypuff
31. Donkey Kong
32. Sonic
33. Ike
34. Ganon
35. Yoshi
36. Ness
37. Pokemon Trainer
38. Luigi

(seriously, **** Luigi)

Why should Mods care about this? Well, I was going to vote with it, but decided I respect Kewkky too much that even I had to put restraints on my own trolling. However if you see anyone else voting with this tier list you can assume they are trolling, especially if they also happen to be an engineer.

 

[Illuvial]

I see nothing wrong here ^^^

 

[pidgezero_one]

In my defense, my tier list is based on numbers and nothing but numbers. Clearly the most objective tier list on SWF.

 

[Jabejazz]

I only see one thing that's wrong here.

the pidgezero_one tier list.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Everyone knows who i really am.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm Pidgezero_one. Look at my avatar.

 

[Illuvial]

What if Pidge was ACTUALLY John Madden? What if?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

What if she was ACTUALLY flaoc? What if?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

the pidgezero_one tier list.

Luigi is too high.

edit: crap, that was supposed to be an edit

 

[Shaya]

I predicted someone making that list...

 

[pidgezero_one]

I predicted someone making that list...

I do it hardcore. I couldn't let my old specialty go to waste.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Brawl tier list opinion (Taken from my post at the BBR). This is for the v8 tier list.

I'll only make a list within god tier, top tier and high tier. I really don't care about low tiers and mid tiers.

God tier

1.- Ice Climbers (Best character in the game if your tech skill is up there, no mistakes, equals, impossible to lose. Forced to approach them eventually, sick desyncs setups, and stomp most of the cast and BEAT Meta Knight if they don't make mistakes). This is similar to Fox being the best in Melee. Results don't show wise, but potentially, technically wise, HE is the best. Same case here. (And Falco is MK in Melee. Super good and beats everyone, and is considered the best, but isn't the best).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwv06J4Sqog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-VxE3UsNPM

 

[bubbaking]

Spoiler

Top
S

A
/
B
//
High
C

Borderline
D
/// //
Mid
E
///
Low
F

Bottom
G

H

You should have MK in SS Tier and ICs in S Tier so that DDD can truly be in DDD Tier.

 

[Zinoto]

Diddy is a low tier character, but we don't lose to .

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Just Sopo.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Fun fact: If you remove Sheilda from my tier list, it becomes dramatically different.

1. Olimar
2. Lucario
3. Dedede
4. Toon Link
5. Wolf
6. G&W
7. Fox
8. Peach
9. Pit
10. Meta Knight
11. Kirby
12. Diddy
13. Ice Climbers
14. Snake
15. Flaoc
16. Marth
17. Pikachu
18. Wario
19. ZSS
20. Lucas
21. Mario
22. Captain Falcon
23. Bowser
24. Samus
25. Jigglypuff
26. Link
27. Zelda
28. ROB
29. Ganon
30. Sonic
31. DK
32. Ike
33. Sheik
34. Yoshi
35. Ness
36. PT
37. Luigi

This is infeasible though, because Zelda has gone from 37th to 27th, and such (Sheilda would be 33rd and would not bump her down).

 

[Cassio]

Pikachu can't beat MK. ESAM likes to say he can, but rarely takes sets off good MK players. Last year his record was overwhelmingly negative.

Pikachu is crazy overrated. Best Pikachu uses ICs has a secondary and uses it often when he loses with Pikachu... which is a little like using MK as a secondary, and says a lot.

You have smart things to say, but lately youve been contradicting yourself in regards to how you rate other characters vs ZSS. He put pika above snake and falco because both have solo-viability issues as well, and as already mentioned while Apex is a great accomplishment her other results at nationals arent there. Id put pika elsewhere, but its a reasonable placement.

Also lately im convinced Pikachu is the best character against MK in the game. With more developed and with consistent use of his QA lock I could see the possibility of a very slight advantage for pika.

Actually I used to write off his QAL from uairs and grabs, but Ive been seeing it used more by ESAM and even standard pikas. He'd be one of 3 characters able to 0-death peeps in that sorta way along with diddy and ICs with perhaps less hinderances.

I just abused Falco's superior camping game (lasers and reflector) and superior CQC (ie Jab) to avoid the grab (which wasn't too difficult, tbh) and was able to win. It was still very close (both games were last hit) but I managed to win. Now, I'm in no way saying that my one set should have any major weight when determing MUs and tier lists, but I do think it's enough to prove that the MU isn't Auto lose. Falco has the tools to deal with Pikachu (and ICs too, although not as well), but he just has to work a LOT harder

If you want to analyze a MU based on poor play then sure, but that doesnt really have a place in a tier list discussion. Since Im already responding, while it may be odd to place ICs above MK its not like stating its in "TAS land" would drastically change his list since MK and ICs are commonly first and second to a lot of people.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If you want to analyze a MU based on poor play then sure, but that doesnt really have a place in a tier list discussion. Since Im already responding, while it may be odd to place ICs above MK its not like stating its in "TAS land" would drastically change his list since MK and ICs are commonly first and second to a lot of people.

Man, people are still taking me seriously? I'm such a failure

 

[Seagull Joe]

You have smart things to say, but lately youve been contradicting yourself in regards to how you rate other characters vs ZSS. He put pika above snake and falco because both have solo-viability issues as well, and as already mentioned while Apex is a great accomplishment her other results at nationals arent there. Id put pika elsewhere, but its a reasonable placement.

Also lately im convinced Pikachu is the best character against MK in the game. With more developed and with consistent use of his QA lock I could see the possibility of a very slight advantage for pika.

Actually I used to write off his QAL from uairs and grabs, but Ive been seeing it used more by ESAM and even standard pikas. He'd be one of 3 characters able to 0-death peeps in that sorta way along with diddy and ICs with perhaps less hinderances.


If you want to analyze a MU based on poor play then sure, but that doesnt really have a place in a tier list discussion. Since Im already responding, while it may be odd to place ICs above MK its not like stating its in "TAS land" would drastically change his list since MK and ICs are commonly first and second to a lot of people.

beats . You heard it here first.

 

[Cassio]

lol, not exactly. But I wouldnt mind discussing the MU.

 

[bubbaking]

Why the heck did Zero say DDD's only good Top Tier MUs are ZSS and Marth when Snake exists and DDD does better against Diddy than he does against ZSS? Also, as long as DDD suffers a -3 against MK, he can't be Top Tier, and believe me, he does. Everything else made sense, though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OK but like, can a Pikachu start beating MK? lol

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Also lately im convinced Pikachu is the best character against MK in the game. With more developed and with consistent use of his QA lock I could see the possibility of a very slight advantage for pika.

Actually I used to write off his QAL from uairs and grabs, but Ive been seeing it used more by ESAM and even standard pikas. He'd be one of 3 characters able to 0-death peeps in that sorta way along with diddy and ICs with perhaps less hinderances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbgTzl5YJA0&t=1m30s

It's not a 0 to death since you can DI away from it. It's really more of a DI chase

 

[Illuvial]

Guys... Maybe it isn't Pikachu that is overrated, maybe ESAM is.

 

[Cassio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbgTzl5YJA0&t=1m30s

It's not a 0 to death since you can DI away from it. It's really more of a DI chase

It kinda depends, its not a guarantee but its extremely common situation since Thunder 2 kills MK around 50% from the ledge. They needa DI towards the ledge so, yeah . ESAM always opts to do charge fsmash or upsmash or messes up for some reason at a percent where T2 woulda killed, prolly cause he didnt practice doing T2, but its actually costed him in multiple very close and important games.

Kinda a side note but you can also jab lock around late 50% to 60% and jab from one side then QA to the other and jab from there.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That would require the MK to di in a way where the QAC lock ends when Pikachu is right in front of him which is something smart players will avoid. Even then, there would be no room for error since thunder is super laggy

 

[Cassio]

I mean, pika can determine how long his QA's gonna be, and if its really that big an issue he can just end with a jab. On top of T2's hitbox being pretty massive. To do the T2 you just need to buffer it, once you learn the buffer imo its easier than most of his other options.

Youre right that it is a lot of tech skill that i used to write off, but i also didnt think the banana lock could be used commonly til Zinoto, MK or Marth could be so precise until Otori/Mikeneko, ZSS could be so good in the right technical hands like Salem, ICs could be so consistent until the last year and a half, etc. In the past playing lame, never practicing and just being smart seemed to be how the metagame ran and such technically precise tactics didnt seem important, but in the last year ive changed my opinion on that significantly. I dunno if a pika will really master it, but its possible.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The thing is you can't DI away from the banana lock or IC's chain grab. The QAC lock is more like Ganon's side b. It can be a 0 - death, but players can't see into the future

 

[Tesh]

I don't know, there doesn't seem to be much most characters can do about it. It would be funny to see the smashville platform blocks T1 from becoming T2 though.

 

[Cassio]

lol, I didnt mean to talk so much about this but if you mean that its not the same degree of guarantee for death youre kinda right, or at least in some situations it can become a lot harder. I dont think it has as much to do with DI as positioning situations such as having a platform over a ledge. At the same time pika has his advantages too, like not being tied down to nana, being able to set up from a grab, and uair being a pretty convenient set up (agreed to overall as his best move with its most common hitboxes in front and back knocking the opponent into pika, its fast in every way and very safe, and has nice range/angle/disjoint).

ahh inb4d

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Snake D3 is even or in Snake's favor. I talked to both Vex and Atomsk about it.

I saw those matches live Jebus. I also beat 9B in 65%-70% of our pre-Apex seriouslies, and I hold a undefeated record vs Nakat and Vinnie. I know the MU very well. I don't say this lightly.

@Everyone else, I've read the comments, taking notes to make a better list next time (I've found a couple of holes when discussing this with other people, so I'm fixing them to present a more solid tier list, argument-wise).

 

[pidgezero_one]

Snake D3 is even or in Snake's favor. I talked to both Vex and Atomsk about it.

I saw those matches live Jebus. I also beat 9B in 65%-70% of our pre-Apex seriouslies, and I hold a undefeated record vs Nakat and Vinnie. I know the MU very well. I don't say this lightly.

@Everyone else, I've read the comments, taking notes to make a better list next time (I've found a couple of holes when discussing this with other people, so I'm fixing them to present a more solid tier list, argument-wise).

I strongly recommend taking my tier list into account <3

 

[DewDaDash]

zero... snake d3 is not in snakes favor.... Its 55/45 in d3s favor at best for snake

 

[Dekillsage]

Omg I'm not the only one who thinks snake vs ddd is 50-50 or 55-45 snakes flavorrrrr

This match up isn't bad for snake at all. It's pretty goooooood

 

[DewDaDash]

..........

 

[Dekillsage]

..........

Yeah das right come at me bro

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Snake loses to DDD. CG to the edge destroys Snake. DDD can mix it up between D-tilt F-throw or just grab release him

 

[Dekillsage]

Yeah and then snake will just take the hits and recover.
He doesn't get gimped often he just takes damage.

**** the same goes for DDD when he gets Dthrown. He does get up attack away from snake first making it complete ass vs snake. Everything can be punished on reaction after dthrow, as long as you can boost grab forward rolls. Not to mention ddd has trouble getting back on the stage himself vs snake on certain stages( Bf, lylat, fd)

DDD can't get in on snake without making the hardest of reads on the player either. Same goes with snake trying to get in on ddd, but the difference is we can actually control the stage. DDD blocks and desperately tries to get in.

It's even or a slight advantage. DDD will never body snake unless the snake plays the match up wrong.