Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

Mods please don't infract me. I am triple-posting because my SWF won't let me edit posts without it taking over 5 minutes for some weird reason. I just wanted to say that I deeply respect Coney's opinion. The man's knowledge and experience is legendary, but I feel he gives too much weight to certain things. He honestly believes DDD:Wario is even due to situational stage advantages that Wario can have at certain times (which certainly are notable), such as having DDD at the ledge where Bite can cover a lot of get-up options, but I doubt they make the MU any better than -1 for him, let alone even.

 

[bubbaking]

My posts are super-delayed (), so that previous one was supposed to come out before yours, Coney. I misunderstood you then, and I apologize. I still disagree with you, though. Btw, what the heck are you doing back here, arguing competitive Brawl things after retiring? Transcendent opinions are not allowed.

 

[Coney]

i still lurk around a lot, i just don't post because my opinions are old and wrinkly

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Hehe, I successfully summoned bubbaking. Now I just have to wait for you to do my testing for me.

 

[bubbaking]

It's easy to test. Just have Snake shielddrop a 'nade and see if DDD can ftilt it without being hit.

pls no. He thinks get up->utilt is a really good option vs snakes dthrow and nairing usmash gets ddd to safety(lol snake can't uair/utilt the nair)

What the heck? When did I ever say that nair "gets DDD to safety"? That's just plain false, and hopefully, no one in his right competitive mind would ever make such a claim. All I've EVER said was that DDD's nair beats Mortar (100% true). That's all I EVER say whenever I mention that part of the MU (and I've brought it up countless times). Stop misinterpreting what I say or misconstruing my posts. I never said that Snake can't uair/utilt DDD's nair. Who in this thread ever even mentioned that?

#YouFraud

Fatal is one of the worst players I've ever seen play the DDD match up.

Ally's track record against DDDs, especially Atomsk, is bad enough that he'd much rather go other chars, like MK, in that MU.
Meanwhile, in this tourney set, Fatal sticks faithfully to Snake and convincingly 2-1's Atomsk (he only lost the second match due to a TRIP when he was winning with Atomsk at 142%, and he 2-stocked Atomsk game 3).
Please, shut the **** up. Your bias is showing.

#IntentionallyRude
#YouFraud

 

[infiniteV115]

Ally has such a bad track record against Atomsk that he would rather go Wario and ICs and lose 0-2 in this tourney set.

...?
Maybe I misinterpreted because I thought you were trying to point out that Ally had a bad track record against Atomsk's DDD with Snake. But the set you linked showed Ally winning 2-0 with Flaoc against not-DDD.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh woops, that's one of the dumbest mistakes I've made yet. My laptop's audio is off and the tags in-game weren't helping, but it's still quite silly that I didn't immediately realize that the Wario and ICs were Atomsk. Well, I was never originally trying to prove that Ally has a bad track record against DDD or Atomsk but rather that Fatal is quite fine against DDD, and that second set linked gets my point across. Atomsk is one of the absolute BEST DDDs one could hope to find in the vs Snake MU. The man's record is really spectacular, and Fatal's quite commanding victory over him at that tourney shouldn't be taken lightly at all. He most definitely isn't one of the "worst players" in that MU. I'm also fairly certain Ally has a pretty bad Snake vs DDD record against Atomsk (but I'd have to double-check), explaining why he prefers to go other chars (especially MK) against him. Anyway, I'm editing that post.

 

[Tesh]

If you have to quickly google/youtube your evidence every time you get backed into a corner, we are left to wonder what all these assertions were based in the first place.

 

[DewDaDash]

as far as top snakes go against d3 it'd have to be 1) ally 2)fatal 3)mvd. After that It really doesn't matter. No one really does better against d3 than these people and not by a long shot :l
There are some other decent snakes such as bizkit and another snake from md/va that I cant seem to remember anymore but if ur going to base the mu, itd definately be based out from one of these ppl. I think my efforts would be better spent in the backroom >_>" I already know ushio will troll me first thing tommorow on here

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

If you have to quickly google/youtube your evidence every time you get backed into a corner, we are left to wonder what all these assertions were based in the first place.

Wait looking up evidence when challenged is a bad thing? Man I've been doing things wrong for so long. Maybe pidgezero could give some evidence to prove something interesting and make everything better.

 

[B0NK]

Coney also thinks that DDD:Wario is even. I just talked to him personally about that very MU while playing with him at a smashfest. Stand with him. C'mon... I wanna see this.

Why wouldn't I? He's a pretty funny dude to be around!

I said I agree with Dekillsage, Coney, Atomsk, Vex, and whoever else believes Snake is even or beats D3. The D3 vs Wario match-up, and my opinions on it, is completely irrelevant to the Snake vs D3 discussion.

as far as top snakes go against d3 it'd have to be 1) ally 2)fatal 3)mvd. After that It really doesn't matter. No one really does better against d3 than these people and not by a long shot :l

Fatal does well and knows the match-up? News to me as I see he's been losing to JBand's D3

 

[bubbaking]

If you have to quickly google/youtube your evidence every time you get backed into a corner, we are left to wonder what all these assertions were based in the first place.

Tesh, I'd like for you to stop for a minute and think about how utterly ridiculous this statement of yours sounds. Forget about what bobwithlobsters said, even though it's perfectly valid. If you paid attention to the conversation, you'd have seen that I mentioned Fatal solidly beating Atomsk BEFORE I linked those matches. In other words, I had already remembered/thought of the "evidence" that existed somewhere; I just needed to "google/youtube" it to find it. Who the heck doesn't do this? I wasn't making an unsupported claim and then trying to look for 'cheap evidence' to quickly support it as you infer here. Rather, I made a claim, supported it with evidence that I knew existed, and then jumped on Youtube and searched "Fatal vs Atomsk" to find the set I was referring to and prove my point conclusively in case you were doubting that my evidence existed. This is practically how your average debating is done around here on Smashboards. However, I suspect that you suddenly have a problem with this rather orthodox method because it happened to be conducted by a person tagged Bubbaking.

The 'Ally point' came up later while I was searching, but it was never what I was discussing in the first place.

Fatal does well and knows the match-up? News to me as I see he's been losing to JBand's D3

Man, completely ignored my last post on the issue, along with its direct video evidence... (-_-) Perhaps you should discuss how someone who doesn't know the MU was able to stomp on someone who happens to be a top player, a top DDD, AND knows the MU like the back of his hand.

Also, according to Dekillsage, JBand's DDD is a DDD worth mentioning in this MU, so you're kinda contradicting your debating partner over here.

 

[Dekillsage]

Just woke up but I'll address a few things

@Fatal
I wouldn't be surprised if in the past he was one of the better players at the match up. I'm not talking about him in the past tense, I'm talking about now. If he's beating ddd's now its because they're letting him hit them for free and he proceeds to frame trapping them to hell(this happened during one of his sets with jband). I say he's bad at the match up now because of his playstyle. He's overly aggressive and hasn't been practicing because more important things have come up for him. I'm not going to call him good at a match up when he wont play the mu correctly anymore unless I see otherwise. Fatal then = mindblowing godlike player. Fatal now= has to remember why he used to be so godlike ;-;

YOU CAN'T GIMP SNAKEThis doesn't happen unless the snake players FEELS like letting himself get killed. Every time we're thrown offstage we can take the bairs from ddd for free and then jump cypher. You'll never gimp snake, only get damage on him. You don't have the jumps or kill moves to kill snake early. Know that every single position DDD puts snake in can be recovered from without being gimped. You pummel grab release me? I'll jump airdodge or jump turn around nade. Throw me back offstage and bair me a few times I don't care. I play snake that damage means NOTHING vs ddd. Any throw = recovering high for free, dtilt = recover high for free but you can choose to wait for ddd to do a move first, avoid it, then recover.
@HelpR and others aren't top DDD's

Just because I don't practice with top ddd players doesn't mean I don't know the match up. Would you consider southpaw a top toonlink? That's where I get my tl experience from, beat kingtoon at apex. Ever heard of munoz? Gets last place at locals with wario. Used my practice with him to beat malcolm in 2 sets some tournament I played him at. What about ninjalinks pikachu? no top player either right. Beat Z, considered 2nd best pikachu here in the states( I wouldn't call him top player tho, maybe with his character).

Player vs Player is NOT Character vs Character
I beat people by playing match ups, because I'm not that good in player vs player. Guaranteed set ups don't change. If I dthrow DDD idc if you're vex or jband or atomsk or whoever you think is a good DDD. They're going to get techchased HARD, because their character sucks.

Want to know how I lost game 3 vs vex? He grabbed me on frigate while it was about to flip and threw me and then I instantly died(If I had known this would happen I wouldn't have let myself get grabbed)
How did I lose to jband game 3? I spotdodged as ps1 was transforming and he grabbed me and cg'd me on a wall. You'll never get to see how much I destroyed him because of how much snake beats DDD at neutral. Especially on stages like ps1, battlefield, lylat and FD. You'll also never get to see how little I let vex move on frigate.

Snake has better tools vs ddd at neutral, punishes that hit just as hard, and stages where the DDD get ****ing bodied extra hard because he keeps landing on platforms and getting c4's stuck onto him +grenade covering the entire stage limiting approaches.


@Big D I'll answer those questions in a bit v-v

 

[Seagull Joe]

LOOOOLZ! HelpR is not a top DDD, and I doubt he is even a high-level DDD. Jband is a high-level player, but I wouldn't extend that status to his DDD either. He's much better with MK, which makes sense because he mostly goes MK in tourney matches that matter anyway. iLove is most definitely NOT even a high-level DDD. DewDaDash is probably better than all three of those DDDs, with the possible exception of only Jbandrew. The fact that you lose to both Vex and Jband means that I would really trust Dew's opinion over yours. DewDaDash is actually a high-level DDD with some really good wins to his name. Do your research, kid.

Jband has beaten Fatal with . Do your research, kid.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Not sure how to respond to someone who says ddd doesn't have the jumps to gimp snake off the edge of the stage... Completely ignored that ddd can inhale snake out of cypher as far out as snakes feels like going. You say snake has all these options to recover but all you have listed is double jump air dodge and double jump cypher. you commented double jump grenade but I'm not sure how that gets you past ddd. two options make it so ddd has no options to gimp? There is no way for ddd to gimp out of the cypher? No way to eat your second jump?

I agree snake solidly wins the neutral game but to say snake will always recover seems like a bit of a stretch. your evidence has really not given me the confidence to say ddd has no options to counter your much more limited options when off the stage.

-edit I really hate all these arguments over who is top level players and what mu experience is good and what is bad. Just turns into a giant pissing contest where we wait for pidgezero to come and give us something fun to talk about.

 

[-LzR-]

So what if you can bair or inhale or whatever Snake for 100 times? Snake will always come back unless you kill him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Snake will always come back unless you kill him.

Now this is just remarkable.

 

[smashkng]

DDD's CG is BRUTAL against Snake IMO. His grab range is insane and can shield grab almost anything Snake does that isn't a projectile (especially when he gets a PS). It deals 30-40% from the CG and it leads to edge guards and juggles. DDD is VERY good at juggling Snake. Maybe he doesn't gimp Snake but still he can deal so much damage on Snake offstage. And definitely kill him offstage at high percents. And DDD himself is also hard to kill. With optimal DI he can survive a fresh Utilt up to around 145 %. A fresh DDD Utilt starts killing Snake at approximately 130-135%.

 

[-LzR-]

Now this is just remarkable.

Well I don't know about you, but edgehogging the opponent so he falls out of the screen isn't exactly killing. The point is unless you have a spike Snake won't be dying from the bottom which is the important point.

DDD's CG is BRUTAL against Snake IMO. His grab range is insane and can shield grab almost anything Snake does that isn't a projectile (especially when he gets a PS). It deals 30-40% from the CG and it leads to edge guards and juggles. DDD is VERY good at juggling Snake. Maybe he doesn't gimp Snake but still he can deal so much damage on Snake offstage. And definitely kill him offstage at high percents. And DDD himself is also hard to kill. With optimal DI he can survive a fresh Utilt up to around 145 %. A fresh DDD Utilt starts killing Snake at approximately 130-135%.

A great example of how people take one character, put all of his pros in the post and then totally ignores the rest.

 

[Jabejazz]

Snake will always come back unless you kill him.

We in there. If TripleD kills Snake, the MU becomes +2 since he doesn't come back.

Obviously, by killing, you meant instanstly KO'ing without him having a chance to recover. Then again, 100 bairs will probably do.

DDD's CG is BRUTAL against Snake IMO. His grab range is insane and can shield grab almost anything Snake does that isn't a projectile (especially when he gets a PS). It deals 30-40% from the CG and it leads to edge guards and juggles. DDD is VERY good at juggling Snake. Maybe he doesn't gimp Snake but still he can deal so much damage on Snake offstage. And definitely kill him offstage at high percents. And DDD himself is also hard to kill. With optimal DI he can survive a fresh Utilt up to around 145 %. A fresh DDD Utilt starts killing Snake at approximately 130-135%.

That's all true. Thing is, going for that grab isn't exactly easy. As much as we're debating, it's a fact that Snake dominates the neutral/ground game. Hell, I know how much of a ***** to get in is against Snake, having twice 'Murica firepower, and I don't even play good Snakes. That being said, I doubt any of the two dominates the matchup. It's 55:45 one way or the other. Probably requires some adaptation of playstyle to truly play this MU right.

 

[smashkng]

Well I don't know about you, but edgehogging the opponent so he falls out of the screen isn't exactly killing. The point is unless you have a spike Snake won't be dying from the bottom which is the important point.



A great example of how people take one character, put all of his pros in the post and then totally ignores the rest.

I could have written a lot more if I felt like it man, but I'm too lazy. Of course I do know every advantage Snake has against Dedede. But the point is, even if Snake does have better CQC attacks, DDD's shield still beats them pretty well. At close range Snake can only beat shield with a grab and it's difficult to safely space grab because DDD's grab range is significantly better, but DDD can punish him with a grab if he reads that and spot dodges (Snake can also punish his spot dodge hard if he does read that). At close range the MU is a lot about reading each other. Snake's dthrow can rack up a lot of damage if he reads right, but if he reads wrong, he can get grabbed. Snake still is the one in the advantageous position, but he still has to be very careful when Dthrowing. So that shows how read based the MU is. The MU may still be in Snake's favour, but it's difficult to be sure about that. Also Waddle Dees are decent at intercepting Grenades and can put Snake in the air at mid to higher percents. Snake still wins the far range game though and DDD's size makes him get hit a lot by Grenade throws. Snake does punish DDD hard, but DDD punishes Snake even harder. And you can't deny anything I said.

 

[-LzR-]

Did you read the part where Snake can react to Dededes actions from Dthrow? Both characters destroy each other with their grabs. Because of that's it's dangerous for either character to go for the grab as failing allows them to grab you instead.

 

[| Big D |]

I would argue that because of Dedede's poor aerial/ground mobility, Dedede has a tougher time juggling Snake than most of the cast. He can harass Snake off stage fairly well but once Snake is above Dedede, Snake has an easier time landing due to Dedede not being able to keep up with his b-reverses and can't frame trap Snake with aerials due to his fast fall speed.

 

[Shaya]

Imagine this for a second.

Dedede's forward air
as a
FRAME TRAP.

 

[DewDaDash]

Why wouldn't I? He's a pretty funny dude to be around!

I said I agree with Dekillsage, Coney, Atomsk, Vex, and whoever else believes Snake is even or beats D3. The D3 vs Wario match-up, and my opinions on it, is completely irrelevant to the Snake vs D3 discussion.



Fatal does well and knows the match-up? News to me as I see he's been losing to JBand's D3

Just because he lost to jband doesnt mean hes bad. Upsets can happen, people can get outplayed, some people just know MUs better than others. If your saying fatal is bad due to that one loss than that argument is terrible as hes beaten more top d3s compared to the wins that ushio can barely count on his one hand. And just because he managed to do so doesn't make him a top d3 either. Your argument is basically fatal is bad because he loses to jband but snake is good because ushio does well against jband? Like wtf?

edit i assumed you beat jband, now that I reread it, you want to say its in your favor after losing to vex and jband? LOL I dont care for your theorycraft give me ur results ***. Even with the current provided results, it nowhere suggests thats its in snakes favor. The most you could ever say is 50/50 but i still think its 55/45 in d3s favor.

 

[smashkng]

Snake's Dthrow is semi-reacting. Snake can cover most but not all get-up options. Dthrow + Ftilt is 33% damage which is a lot, but it's not that much against DDD compared to what DDD does with his CG plus it's not guaranteed unlike DDD's CG. Ofte it's better to just throw DDD offstage and then edge guard him. And yes DDD IS very good at juggling Snake, even if his mobility is bad. His grab range, Fair and Bair are very good at punishing Snake's landing due to their range, large hitbox and little amout of cooldown.

 

[da K.I.D.]

... youre focusing too much on what ddd can do and seemingly glossing over what snake can and brushing it off as if its not JUST as effective.

 

[Jabejazz]

... youre focusing too much on what ddd can do and seemingly glossing over what snake can and brushing it off as if its not JUST as effective.

Both sides sound like their character is +3 against the other.

Just pick MK for **** sake.

 

[smashkng]

If you guys still don't believe how good DDD is at juggling Snake, watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te8TFBccjU8

Yes Snake vs DDD is very very momentum based. I may just stop posting here because you guys are flaming without giving me ANY counter arguments, besides the b reversal to avoid juggles. Which I agree is good, it can sometimes get him out of juggles, but not always, like when he is cornered in the air.

 

[Dekillsage]

I will respond to this once I get out of school.

But just to start off
Watching game 1 atomsk juggled ally like one time successfully. Ally lost because he made bad plays and got killed when he didn't have too, he didn't get trapped into all 3 of his stocks. Don't fail to notice that ally kept atomsks in juggle way more than atomsk juggled ally. Snake punishes ddd in the air, and his landings.

I'll go more in depth l8r

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Snake juggles DDD harder than DDD juggles Snake.

 

[-LzR-]

But chaingrab gimps snake!

 

[smashkng]

He did, but with juggles it's not just classic juggling, it's also FRAME traps. Like even when Ally landed he still was in a very unfavorable position and Atomsk took advantage of that. That's how Atomsk put so much damage on Ally. The fact that DDD can harass Snake so hard WHEN he gets a grab is undeniable. And trust me it's hard to avoid it when you're at close range against him. How DDD gets in against Snake, that's another story. Snake obviously has an advantage at far range with stage control with projectiles + Grenades. Also those who struggled hard to read can say that "it may be in Snake's favour, but it's difficult to be sure about that".

 

[Dekillsage]

He did, but with juggles it's not just classic juggling, it's also FRAME traps. Like even when Ally landed he still was in a very unfavorable position and Atomsk took advantage of that. That's how Atomsk put so much damage on Ally. The fact that DDD can harass Snake so hard WHEN he gets a grab is undeniable. And trust me it's hard to avoid it when you're at close range against him. How DDD gets in against Snake, that's another story. Snake obviously has an advantage at far range with stage control with projectiles + Grenades. Also those who struggled hard to read can say that "it may be in Snake's favour, but it's difficult to be sure about that".

I wont disagree when you say ddd can frame trap snake, and land heavy damage on snake. I never denied ddd has the ability to do so. I said ddd can't gimp snake, but can always hit him. A lot of frame trap set ups work depending on whether or not the snake player decides to use his jumps, or if c4 is on the stage. Without going into too much specific detail(kinda busy atm) Snake beats ddd at neutral, and also has tons of frame traps and juggles on ddd as well. Imo its a slight advantage for snake, because he has more tools than ddd does. DDD has a lot of good set ups, but the majority of them start off from landing a chaingrab which in itself is really difficult. Once the cg starts, snake gets put in the worst spot he can be in, but its not hopeless and there are ways to get around every single juggle making it closer to rps. Watching game 1 of atomsk vs ally you can see that after every cg they played the rps game, and the one time atomsk won ally got bodied. That does happen, but does it happen enough? And can ddd reliable get the grabs enough to get that chance?

There's a lot of rps in this match up, both leading to heavy punishes. Difference is DDD is painfully trying to get into position to play that game and snake never has too.

 

[B0NK]

edit i assumed you beat jband, now that I reread it, you want to say its in your favor after losing to vex and jband? LOL I dont care for your theorycraft give me ur results ***. Even with the current provided results, it nowhere suggests thats its in snakes favor. The most you could ever say is 50/50 but i still think its 55/45 in d3s favor.

In no way did I imply this lmao

If you really care my record is 0-1 against JBand's MK lol

 

[DewDaDash]

Oh I quoted u but was referring to ushio. He did imply that. Should've been more clear

 

[Coney]

going to bow out of this thread now, just have me cosign everything dekillsage says, i agree with it 100%

no one's saying it's a bad matchup for either side, but def not in ddd's favor

 

[pidgezero_one]

Wait looking up evidence when challenged is a bad thing? Man I've been doing things wrong for so long. Maybe pidgezero could give some evidence to prove something interesting and make everything better.

I'm working on it dude. I have a lot of data to sort through.

 

[B0NK]

#IntentionallyRude
#YouFraud

Found this to be very ironic

 

[smashkng]

I do agree with you there Dekill. Snake's superior camping game is what makes up for the CG. If the Snake doesn't make mistakes, manages too keep DDD away from Snake or reads right at close range, it's more in Snake's favour. If Snake gets a grab, gets DDD into the air or gets DDD offstage, he can often take a 4th or 5th of DDD's stock quickly. But any mistake Snake makes (like allowing Grenades to be intercepted by Waddle Dees and then the grenade blowing up Snake) or any misread at mid or close range can easily take off a third or even half a stock depending on how well the DDD reads Snake after landing a grab and sending him offstage. Snake can juggle DDD well, DDD doesn't have very safe landing options (landing Bair isn't safe on block, can be Ftilted OoS (or shield grabbed if PS'd, when talking about it being optimally spaced) and has the worst horizontal aerial speed). But his multiple jumps and having the quickestfast fall makes up for it decently. Snake's projectiles can also help with the juggling. The MU being about even or a very tiny bit in Snake's favour does sound pretty accurate. I hope you guys understand that I was only talking about how bad it is to get grabbed by DDD or get sent into the air by him. DDD certainly juggles harder than viceversa due to him having better frame traps on Snake (I also never said DDD can gimp him, but can rack up a huge amount of damage on Snake offstage, but then again, so can Snake, but DDD has a guaranteed way of getting him there unlike Snake), but DDD doesn't want to be above Snake either. And about that I don't really think Snake actually wins at close range, but it more like being even there despite Snake having a larger amount of good CQC moves.