Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dcold]

Dekillsage is really, really, good at the D3 MU, and after watching him and other Snakes that are good at the MU play it, it is not in D3's favor, and at worst it's even.

 

[Illuvial]

'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROFhuqvi9bg'

That guy who says that matches should be one stock at the beginning is just silly... And by silly I mean dumb.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

So apparently snake can prevent being gimped no matter what? So if ddd down throws at the edge and reads the double jump cypher and inhales snake out of it snake will just kind of continue to recover with what? C4 is literally the only option at that point and it is easy enough to footstool snake out of that. Is this not a gimp? Can you explain how snake survives this if he gets read after the down throw? I dont see how snake just automatically always recovers. surviving multiple fairs/bairs I can understand but ddd has an aerial grab release on snake that has been consistently ignored in this discussion...

 

[infiniteV115]

Why is that dumb?

 

[Illuvial]

Why is that dumb?

The way I view having 3 stocks is similar to how fighting games have multiple rounds. If you only have 1 stock (as to 1 round in any fighter) you effectively stop players from being able to adapt mid-round and encourage a more campy and punish based metagame that will REALLY punish even slight mistakes. Plus tripping is really annoying when one trip can mean an unfair loss for an entire round.

Sure you could add more rounds to give players more time to think in between rounds, but that is less exciting to watch and play in my opinion.

 

[Jabejazz]

The way I view having 3 stocks is similar to how fighting games have multiple rounds. If you only have 1 stock (as to 1 round in any fighter) you effectively stop players from being able to adapt mid-round and encourage a more campy and punish based metagame that will REALLY punish even slight mistakes. Plus tripping is really annoying when one trip can mean an unfair loss for an entire round.

Sure you could add more rounds to give players more time to think in between rounds, but that is less exciting to watch and play in my opinion.

Also getting owned by gimmicks.

 

[infiniteV115]

Sure you could add more rounds to give players more time to think in between rounds, but that is less exciting to watch and play in my opinion.

You know, there's a big difference between saying this and calling a commentator dumb for having a different opinion XD

 

[ぱみゅ]

The only dumb stock count is adding more.
Either 2 or 1 stock would be fine imo (1-stock would need more matches tho).

 

[Illuvial]

You know, there's a big difference between saying this and calling a commentator dumb for having a different opinion XD

Wait... You took my entire comment seriously... After all the stupid stuff I have posted in this thread?

Where did I go wrong? MEWTWO, HELP ME!

EDIT: So I am considered black now? Oh god...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If we started doing 1 stock ZSS would be so much better, therefore we should never let ZSS mains be a part of discussions on stock count

MEWTWO, HELP ME!

pft, that scrub can't help anyone do anything.

I, on the other hand, am fairly amazing.

EDIT: So I am considered black now? Oh god...

And why does it seem like you consider that a bad thing?

 

[bubbaking]

Someone should address Bob's post because it refers to one of the most valid points that has been made in this discussion thus far. I've heard some crazy stuff, but the only heavy character who practically always recovers is DDD. Even Snake can't take that crown from the King.

So what if you can bair or inhale or whatever Snake for 100 times? Snake will always come back unless you kill him.

SFP already pointed out why this post is pretty funny, but I must address something else about this:
So what if DDD "can inhale Snake 100 times"? Dude, Inhale is a one-hit KO deal. You're basically saying, "So what if DDD can instantly kill Snake 100 times?"

Want to know how I lost game 3 vs vex? He grabbed me on frigate while it was about to flip and threw me and then I instantly died(If I had known this would happen I wouldn't have let myself get grabbed)
How did I lose to jband game 3? I spotdodged as ps1 was transforming and he grabbed me and cg'd me on a wall. You'll never get to see how much I destroyed him because of how much snake beats DDD at neutral. Especially on stages like ps1, battlefield, lylat and FD. You'll also never get to see how little I let vex move on frigate.

Your points are valid, but regarding this quote here, you still lost due to 'non-jank'. Vex threw you into the flipping stage from a grab he landed during CQC. Jband infinited you against a wall from a grab he landed during CQC. If anything, other than the ridiculous guaranteed reward DDD can nab off of one read/punish, this just brings up another facet of this MU: Counterpicks. DDD gets quite a few perks from CPs; Snake isn't the only one. Also, I find it funny that you say that Snake destroys DDD on PS1 given what you just said Jband did to you off of one mistake.

Jband has beaten Fatal with . Do your research, kid.

I never said Jband can't beat good Snakes. I hope you haven't forgotten that long convo we had here about how beating a high-level player or two doesn't suddenly make one a high-level user of a char. My point still stands. I wouldn't place Jband's DDD at high-level just off of that.

Also, my point was that I would trust DewDaDash's opinion as a high-level DDD who's played against a multitude of players from different regions over those of Dekillsage who listed his practice against non-high level DDDs as his experience in the MU. I didn't say that his experience was meaningless, but the topic somehow came up of whose experience-based opinion was 'more valid' and I said, in that fight, I would probably side with DewDaDash.

Don't read too much into it.

 

[DewDaDash]

Yea ive played my fair share of snakes from redhalberd,hrnut,fatal,mvd,stockfield and in 2v2s ally and that one japanese snake but those are 2v2s, but they are so gdlk o.o
This debate was fun but think im done with it for now

 

[Illuvial]

Pfft, being considered black is fantastic... Just... Unexpected

Kind of like finding a Shiny Mewtwo

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Well, for the regulars of this thread, finding a Shiny Mewtwo isn't unexpected.

It is fantastic, however.

 

[bubbaking]

Imagine this for a second.

Dedede's forward air
as a
FRAME TRAP.

I have a feeling that this flew over most people's heads.....

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I have a feeling that this flew over most people's heads.....

Yeah I kinda wanted to comment on that one but was having so much trouble arguing simpler concepts that I decided that it was probably easier to just keep that one to myself.

 

[infiniteV115]

I have a feeling that this flew over most people's heads.....

Can it actually frame trap? It doesn't really seem like it has low enough cooldown to be a frame trap.
But the only time I've ever played a DDD in bracket was back in August 2011 so wtf do I know

 

[pidgezero_one]

John Madden

 

[SoulPech]

yeah can we go back to how godlike my post was?

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah I kinda wanted to comment on that one but was having so much trouble arguing simpler concepts that I decided that it was probably easier to just keep that one to myself.

I KNOW THAT FEEL!!!

Can it actually frame trap? It doesn't really seem like it has low enough cooldown to be a frame trap.
But the only time I've ever played a DDD in bracket was back in August 2011 so wtf do I know

I think it depends on the character (aerial mobility, AD frame data, etc.), but I believe DDD's fair > other aerials (especially bair) actually does frame-trap or is at least tight enough that the string can't easily be interrupted. I used to see Coney and other top-level DDDs do it all the time.

 

[Iota]

Can we have a MU discussion that's less dumb please?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Can we have a MU discussion that's less dumb please?

Yeah we should discuss why Jigglypuff beats Ganon +4


Gimps and superior Mobility, that is all.

 

[bubbaking]

The point is unless you have a spike Snake won't be dying from the bottom which is the important point.

Already proven false.

Snake can also punish his spot dodge hard if he does read that.

Kinda hard to punish that spot-dodge actually, even now in 2013.

Did you read the part where Snake can react to Dededes actions from Dthrow? Both characters destroy each other with their grabs. Because of that's it's dangerous for either character to go for the grab as failing allows them to grab you instead.

Go find me a match of a good Snake destroying a good DDD because of this 'semi-guaranteed dthrow chain' you guys keep ranting about. Also, stop saying incorrect things. Failing the grab with DDD doesn't allow Snake to grab him if DDD spaced his grab correctly simply due to the premise of having a much larger grab-range.

I would argue that because of Dedede's poor aerial/ground mobility, Dedede has a tougher time juggling Snake than most of the cast. He can harass Snake off stage fairly well but once Snake is above Dedede, Snake has an easier time landing due to Dedede not being able to keep up with his b-reverses and can't frame trap Snake with aerials due to his fast fall speed.

Even though DDD has an even faster fastfall speed? <__< I would think between fair/bair traps, uair to catch him early with that huge disjoint, utilt to surprise and power through moves, usmash to catch ADs and landings, and grab to catch landings, DDD can actually be a good juggler of Snake. B-reverses don't make Snake THAT fast; they simply make him unpredictable. They also don't really solve his problem of landing. He still has to get down and anything that catches landings, like grab, will still nab him.

... youre focusing too much on what ddd can do and seemingly glossing over what snake can and brushing it off as if its not JUST as effective.

Well, that makes the MU even.........like most of us have been saying...

Watching game 1 of atomsk vs ally you can see that after every cg they played the rps game, and the one time atomsk won ally got bodied. That does happen, but does it happen enough? And can ddd reliable get the grabs enough to get that chance?

Ally, the best Snake in NA and possibly the world, has a pretty bad record as Snake against Atomsk, one of the best DDDs in NA at that MU. Just going by results, DDD wins the MU. Saying the MU is even really isn't that hard to accept, guys. You can theorycraft all you want, but the results support at best (for you) an even MU).

Snake punishes ddd in the air, and his landings.

Good to know that Snake can do to DDD what DDD can do to Snake. Even MU.

Snake juggles DDD harder than DDD juggles Snake.

I find that very hard to believe when DDD has multiple jumps, the fastest FF speed in the game, Inhale, and a dair that actually covers him and helps him descend. Somehow, Snake is supposed to match up to all that with Cypher and B-reversals... <__<

 

[Iota]

Even though I agree to that. It was no better than the dumb snake vs D3 talk.

 

[Dekillsage]

You'd rather have a discussion on some low tiers?

Don't want to talk about this mu anymore. We're just gonna go back and forth on how good our chars are vs each other and ignore that snake is still better at neutral.

@inhale tho
If it works like warios bite, then we'll just c4. To my knowledge you can't footstool us out of it, but bair will probably land. Otherwise its trading kills which is good if you have the stock lead. The set up isn't very reliable tho but I don't want to go into that.

@fair frame traps
If you mean he can do fair and then punish our defensive option afterwards yes it frame traps snake. If you mean ddd can do a move and then fair... not so much. We can just turn around nade and trade tho. 30% on snake for like 10 on ddd? Could be worse.

@vex and jband
I forced cqc on frigate vs vex because I didn't know being thrown during a flip = instant death
Vs jband me spotdodging was 100% on me. ddd being able to do that is an option thats good on ps1, but during none transformation and the none wall/ windmill ones snake wins.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You'd rather have a discussion on some low tiers?

Who wouldn't?

 

[Dekillsage]

Who wouldn't?

Done with you

 

[Iota]

I'm fairly certain that Wario biting you out of cypher properly (e.g. The cypher hitbox hits us out of bite immediately) means you're dead. Using C4 causes you to fast fall so you won't be able to detonate it in time for it to save you. Even if you can you take massive damage from C4 and then still have to deal with more offstage gimp shenanigans.

 

[Dekillsage]

I'm fairly certain that Wario biting you out of cypher properly (e.g. The cypher hitbox hits us out of bite
immediately) means you're dead. Using C4 causes you to fast fall so you won't be able to detonate it in time for it to save you. Even if you can you take massive damage from C4 and then still have to deal with more offstage gimp shenanigans.

Maybe if we're at the bottom of the stage lol. Using c4 doesn't cause you to fast fall btw.

edit: Yes I know it can. pls don't pop off because I didn't write everything out for you

 

[bubbaking]

II don't really think Snake actually wins at close range, but it more like being even there despite Snake having a larger amount of good CQC moves.

Snake doesn't. Having a "larger amount of good CQC moves" means very little when most of them are beaten by one move on DDD's part (shieldgrab).

YDon't want to talk about this mu anymore. We're just gonna go back and forth on how good our chars are vs each other and ignore that snake is still better at neutral.

You need to realize that winning at neutral =/= winning the MU.

@inhale tho
If it works like warios bite, then we'll just c4. To my knowledge you can't footstool us out of it, but bair will probably land.

Your knowledge is very incorrect. You're saying that we can't do the very thing I've watched Atomsk do.

@fair frame traps
If you mean he can do fair and then punish our defensive option afterwards yes it frame traps snake. If you mean ddd can do a move and then fair... not so much. We can just turn around nade and trade tho. 30% on snake for like 10 on ddd? Could be worse.

Yes, all fair frame traps involve fair first. The problem with blowing us both up is that you're still in the air.....above us.

@vex and jband
I forced cqc on frigate vs vex because I didn't know being thrown during a flip = instant death

You clearly have not been playing John12346 enough. :3

 

[Dekillsage]

Pls don't mentioned John to me. I love the guy but he beats me like once out of 15 sets >_> (that snake mental block)

 

[Iota]

Huh, I thought it did. Regardless, the only time you're going to get bitten/inhaled so that cypher screws you over by breaking the grab is when you're below or at the same height as the ledge. If you get your C4 off its going to be complete hell for you getting back since you'll be super low. I've never seen a Snake live once it happens though.

 

[bubbaking]

Pls don't mentioned John to me. I love the guy but he beats me like once out of 15 sets >_> (that snake mental block)

Lolz, wth? What's wrong with mentioning John in a complete joking manner? Especially since you lost to a stage feature which I know for certain that he would gun for. Starting to sound a little high n' mighty here, if you ask me. I never inferred in any way that you lose to him. Frigate's his favorite stage. You lost to something he likes to take advantage of. That's all. Don't take the comment too seriously, man.

Huh, I thought it did. Regardless, the only time you're going to get bitten/inhaled so that cypher screws you over by breaking the grab is when you're below or at the same height as the ledge. If you get your C4 off its going to be complete hell for you getting back since you'll be super low. I've never seen a Snake live once it happens though.

Have you ever played Duelist Pro? Lolz! That game is way too fun. Anyway, yeah, if you just slightly tilt the stick downwards, you can downB and dair without fastfalling. It's a necessary tech in 'competitive Duelist Pro' (lolz, yeah right). It's similar to being able to tilt aerial sideB without moving sideways in the air. If Snake gets his C4 off after being bitten/Inhaled, he can still be footstooled, so mega-dead there...

 

[Dekillsage]

You right you right

 

[infiniteV115]

Also if you guys played Duelist you'd also know that even if you fastfall and drop the C4, you still get hit by the explosion if you buffer the detonation out of the animation of dropping the C4

 

[Dekillsage]

and here I thought I just had good timing

 

[B0NK]

Snake doesn't. Having a "larger amount of good CQC moves" means very little when most of them are beaten by one move on DDD's part (shieldgrab).

Snake confirmed to not have a grab

You need to realize that winning at neutral =/= winning the MU.

Snake confirmed to not ever have the advantage

Your knowledge is very incorrect. You're saying that we can't do the very thing I've watched Atomsk do.

Bubbaking confirmed he never tested it's legitimacy himself

Yes, all fair frame traps involve fair first. The problem with blowing us both up is that you're still in the air.....above us.

Snake's grenades confirmed to not send the opponent upwards when they hit the grenades

You clearly have not been playing John12346 enough. :3

John#'s confirmed lost

 

[bubbaking]

You're too much, Bonkers...

Snake confirmed to not have a grab

Since apparently, you can't read when I say that DDD's grab out-spaces Snake's, therefore acknowledging its existence, and I said "most of [Snake's CQC moves]" can be beaten by shieldgrab, not ALL of them. If you're going to troll me, at least troll me somewhat intelligently. You know what can't be shieldgrabbed? Most of DDD's tilts and bair when spaced. Snake's grab is a mix-up and he has to enter DDD's range to do it, risking the very worst part of the MU just to start this.......godly dthrow chain that I've never seen in practice.

Oh, but by all means, keep theorycrafting, my man!

Snake confirmed to not ever have the advantage

Yeah OK, buddy, you got me! When I say Snake doesn't win the MU, clearly it means he NEVER has an advantage. Meanwhile, Dekill is fine saying things like "We're just gonna go back and forth on how good our chars are vs each other and ignore that snake is still better at neutral," when nobody is (or at least I am not) ignoring that, making it sound like winning at neutral = winning the MU. I guess we lose to TL, too. Oh, and Marth, we definitely don't beat him. Neutral game too good!

Bubbaking confirmed he never tested it's legitimacy himself

By far one of the dumbest sections of this post. My timing is bad and how the heck would I test this meaningfully by myself? If I see high/top players do it often and I see how it works, then I really don't see what the problem is. Saying this tech doesn't work without testing to confirm that after seeing players better than us do it would be the dumb thing. Why do I need to prove something that there is video evidence for? Even if I did test it, you'd probably say something ridiculous like, "Bubbaking believes that just because he can do it, it's a guaranteed punish," or something like that. Man, I guess when I couldn't dthrow > JC usmash Lucario before, it meant that the tech didn't work. I mean, I was testing its legitimacy and I couldn't do. Tech must not exist.

Snake's grenades confirmed to not send the opponent upwards when they hit the grenades

It's called when you're above me and I hit you and a grenade and we both go flying..........you're still above me. In addition, if your damage is higher and we both get hit by a 'nade.....you're above me. And if somehow I DO end up above you........we're both in the air and I fall faster. Put 2 + 2 together. Are you saying that Snake is going to juggle me while he's in the air himself? I mean, DDD can. I guess that must mean that Snake can automatically do it, too.

John#'s confirmed lost

Lolwut? Somehow, my statement of "You get a lot more used to the jank of Frigate when playing with John12346" got turned into....................this.

You got any more of that stuff on you? 4/20 is coming up...

 

[-LzR-]

Bubbaking you do realize grab is almost always used as a punish option, meaning you can't just perfectly space a Dedede grab just like that, it just doesn't work that way.

 

[bubbaking]

You like that, huh, troll? I come under your bridge and I feed you your meat personally. Be grateful.

Edit: Lzr, you really do not understand how DDD works if you are saying that. If you are within grab-range, then 75% of the time, he will try to grab you, whether it is a punish or not, with the other 25% being mix-ups. Also, lolz at not being able to space grab. You reeeaaaally don't understand how DDD works. We space grabs all the time. We have to; our best range is mid-range. Unless you're referring to "perfectly", in which case I really don't know what you're talking about 'cause I ctrl + F'd "perfect" and you're the only person to use that word so far in this entire page.