Official BBR Tier List v7

[MeekSpeedy]

shaky vs quest high stakes mm gogogogogogogo

 

[BluePeachy100]

shaky will hella rob quest, js.

~Azealz

 

[RaptorTEC]

Apparently Shaky is the comeback king? What he did was a huge comeback with Mr. Eric lol and when I mm'ed him I was up 2 stocks game 3 and he still won. He also beat MX in 2 mm's apparently after he was about to lose both. With Ness... I don't even.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

With Ness... I don't even.

I don't think it's very weird. Ness kills ridiculously early and is easily a high tier character when he isn't the victim of an infinite (when it's banned or when a character doesn't have one).

Grab release shenanigans are a problem but they're a problem for plenty of "other" good characters too. Take away that game-breaking weakness and his other flaws become more reasonable and certainly more manageable.

In terms of having the capacity to make comebacks I'd rank Ness very high due to his high damage output, early kills, and good strings. Plus he has a dumb jab lock on like everyone that while not common, isn't impractical either.

And another note: while Ness' tier list position is more or less accurate (+ a few spots maybe), his tier list position is also based on a few very, very bad situations and when he's not faced directly with those circumstances it doesn't matter.

 

[BlueXenon]

Here are some of Ness' tournament results.
7th at Whobo 4
1st at Whobo 4 Mid tiers
33rd at Apex 2012
25th at Apex 2013

I think there are other good Ness results but i don't remember them.

I would put Ness above Kirby or Rob.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Aren't all of them Shaky's results?

 

[BlueXenon]

No, Fow got 33rd at Apex 2012

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...results-up-international-takes-it-all.316696/

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

To provide a better comparison, here are some of ROB's results:

9th at Apex 2012, 33rd as well if you count Holy (which, if we're counting FOW's Ness when he probably went more MK we should definitely count Holy)
7th, 25th and 33rd at Impulse, and 2nd if we want to count Ally's ROB, though we probably shouldn't since he didn't win a full set with ROB
33rd at WHOBO 4
idk if Kiraflax used any ROB at Sktar but he got 33rd there
Same thing at ReveLAtions, Kiraflax got 9th but idk how much ROB he used
25th at SRT

I think that is pretty similar to the Ness results, with more people getting the results as well.

Somebody else can do Kirby since I don't care about him

 

[infiniteV115]

That's the problem though. We don't really know how much ROB was used in each tourney.
At IMPULSE Holy only used ROB and got 7th, Ally only used ROB against Dabuz in WFs (and he lost 3-2 iirc). 25th and 33rd at IMPULSE aren't really worth mentioning.
OCEAN went all ROB at Apex 2012 and got 9th which is great. Holy's 33rd at Apex 2012 I'm pretty sure was 100% MK (he tells me he never uses ROB in MK-legal tournies) and back then, FOW pretty much went full Ness except for going MK against a few MUs (Snake and Marth is what I've been told, probably against DDD and DK as well)
33rd at WHOBO4 isn't really worth mentioning
Same with what you mentioned about SKTAR and ReveLAtions, especially since we don't know how much ROB was used.
25th at SRT, I'm not exactly sure how good that is since I don't follow Japan's scene very much XD Who was it and who did they beat?

Not trying to imply that Ness > ROB but it definitely looks like Ness has better results in total, outside of Apex 2012

 

[BlueXenon]

I think Luminous' Rob got 25th at SRT. I don't think there were any other Rob's.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd say that neither character's tourney results allow us to give a well educated judgment over whom is better. In such a case it'd make more sense to look at the players who have lost to either of these two characters.

M2K, Kakera, Mikeneko, Vinnie, ESAM, Atomsk, Shu, Leon and Ramin are the best players I can think of that have dropped sets to ROB. MK, ICs, Marth, DDD, Snake and Pikachu are the character and this list is based on two ROB players [Ocean, Luminous, Holy and 8bitman].
The best players that have lost to Ness are DEHF, Abadango, Ryo, Denti, RichBrown and Tyrant. Falco, Wario, MK, Olimar and Ike and the list is based on two Ness players.

If you look at it that way ROB probably has an edge.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ROB is a better character simply because he doesn't get invalidated by any character that releases him to the ground. My point was just that Ness is a good character other than that, so he can thrive in many matchups where it isn't a factor as well as any tournament at which the infinite is banned.

Ness doing well occasionally, even frequently, should be expected, but winning is a tall order, even if MK is banned.

Ness is the very definition of a good character held back by a single fatal flaw. His recovery is bad, but that's not an invalidating problem necessarily, just a flaw, of which high tier characters have many.

 

[infiniteV115]

MVD lost to Shaky in a recent encounter, NR lost to Shaky at Genesis 2 and from what I've heard ESAM (with Pikachu) used to have a losing record vs Shaky (pretty sure this was before he picked up ICs).
When did Nakat lose to Ness? O.o

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He didn't - that was my mistake. I misread the apex bracket thinking Nakat lost to Shaky when he actually lost to Ryo.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

M2K, Kakera, Mikeneko, Vinnie, ESAM, Atomsk, Shu, Leon and Ramin are the best players I can think of that have dropped sets to ROB. MK, ICs, Marth, DDD, Snake and Pikachu are the character and this list is based on two ROB players [Ocean, Luminous, Holy and 8bitman].

4 ROB players*

Also going by that list and MU chart 2.0, ROB players have won MUs that are -3 (MK), -2 (Dedede), -1 (Snake, Pikachu), and Even (Marth, ICs) against High/Top level players.

Ness players, on the other hand, have won MUs that are -2 (Falco), -1 (Wario, Ike), and Even (Olimar) against High/Top level players.

What Marth, DK and D3 players have Ness players beaten? Even if they aren't high/top level players, as long as they're, say, upper mid they should be taken into consideration because of the difficulty of the MU

 

[Shaya]

I lost to shaky.
I'm probably the book definition of upper mid player.

He knew Ness against Marth a lot more than I knew it (although I had like 1.5 years of a Ness main in my region from brawl's release). I wasn't well versed in dealing with Ness' full hop forward air.
I don't think I would consistently lose to Shaky if I had more 2012 meta [play]time in the MU.

 

[Cassio]

ESAM used to trade sets with shaky, which was a big deal in FL since everyone else had bad losing records. Lately though Shakys been doing less well as ESAM's integrated the grab releases into his game. I think Lucas and Ness could cause a lot of trouble for pika, with Ness a potential soft counter, if not for the grab releases. The issue is once Ness (and lucas) are offstage pika can have a field day.

 

[Luco]

It is kinda unfortunate that Ness' results are solely held up by Shaky (since FOW just... doesn't use Ness anymore and Yink left ages ago), it makes it harder to judge him, even though I usually say 'well if one person can do it, it's possible for other people too'. I think the deal with Shaky is he's used to people picking on Ness' easily known weaknesses (GR and recovery) and has taken steps to make sure it's much less of a problem. I actually find it a bit different with Lucas top players in that they just kinda forge on with it anyway and have other techniques to help them achieve the win but really, this could just be me. I dunno.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

So I'm assuming the characters in the borderline tier cut themselves and have eating disorders?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Anyone wanna play a game of Mad Libs?

"If _______ didn't _______, he/she would be _______-tier"

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Anyone wanna play a game of Mad Libs?

"If _______ didn't _______, he/she would be _______-tier"

Gosh Stef you're doing it wrong! You forgot to state what type of word goes in each blank. Let me fix it for you:

"
"If (noun) didn't (verb) , He/She would be (level) -tier"

 

[pidgezero_one]

I'll start:

"If icies didn't have a chain grab, they would be C-tier"
"If ness didn't have 10 extra frames of lag, he would be D-tier"
"If ZSS didn't suck, she'd be B-tier"
"If MK didn't have Nado, he'd be H-tier"

 

[Dekillsage]

If Snake didn't have d-throw, he'd be b-tier.

 

[IceArrow]

If MK didn't have nado, he'd still be S Tier.
If Falco didnt have lasers, he'd be E Tier.
If Snake didn't have Up-Tilt, he'd be B Tier.

 

[BlueXenon]

I'll start:

"If MK didn't have Nado, he'd be H-tier"

I think MK's tornado is a very useful tool for some match ups, but I don't think he needs it and he would still be the best character with out it. I think he would still win the match ups where he can spam tornado even with out it.
It would probably be harder for MK to land sometimes, but that's not enough for other characters to be better than him.

 

[RaptorTEC]

If Yoshi had a shield he'd be high tier.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If Pikachu didn't have Esam he would be C tier
If Diddy didn't have Bananas he would be E tier
If Kirby didn't have Bair he would be G tier

 

[infiniteV115]

If DDD didn't have his dthrow cg, he'd be F-tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DDD is f tier anyway

 

[[Corn]]

If Ganon wasnt Ganon, he would be above H tier
If Icies didnt have a dumb Nana, they would be super S tier.
If Snake wasnt a psychic, he would be c tier.

 

[Lykos-]

If Pit didn't have Meta Knight, he would be B tier.

 

[pidgezero_one]

If Jigglypuff didn't have Rollout, she'd be I-tier

 

[infiniteV115]

So about this thread
Are we allowed to include ties within our tier list (assuming of course we still follow the rule of not increasing/decreasing a char's placement by >9 spots)?

 

[Dekillsage]

Man this is really long
Can I get the tl;dr???

 

[WindMajor]

Are we allowed to include ties within our tier list (assuming of course we still follow the rule of not increasing/decreasing a char's placement by >9 spots)?

No ties please.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

No ties please.

Damn. Shelda is not a viable tier list pick then.

 

[Illuvial]

If Link had recovery, he would be C tier... Well... He would probably still only be at mid D tier at best...

 

[Luco]

Are we allowed to edit our posts on that thread? If so, do we post it in the thread that we have done so or do we PM kewkky or what? =)

 

[Kewkky]

Are we allowed to edit our posts on that thread? If so, do we post it in the thread that we have done so or do we PM kewkky or what? =)

PM'ing me would be preferred. I don't mind getting pm'd by lots of people if it means I don't get confused with the votes later on. Needless to say, once we're closing up the thread, I'll review all the votes and people's posts to make sure I didn't make a mistake.


EDIT: If you'd like to, you can also edit your vote. Otherwise, just PM me and I'll change your vote myself. Not too much work, but an extra helping hand from the sender is always appreciated.

 

[Luco]

PM'ing me would be preferred. I don't mind getting pm'd by lots of people if it means I don't get confused with the votes later on. Needless to say, once we're closing up the thread, I'll review all the votes and people's posts to make sure I didn't make a mistake.

Ah coolio. Thanks kewkky!! =D =D =D