Official BBR Tier List v7

[Shaya]

KEWKKY SO COOKY.
Good luck

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

What ruleset is the voting thread assuming, Apex or Japanese?

I'll assume Apex, since it seems to be becoming the standard but would like some confirmation before I post my thoughts.

 

[Luco]

I think it's safe to say apex but i'm honestly not sure.

It should also be noted that i think this voting project is both a fantastic idea and one that could be doomed.

I hope i'm somewhat wrong on the latter.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What ruleset is the voting thread assuming, Apex or Japanese?

I'll assume Apex, since it seems to be becoming the standard but would like some confirmation before I post my thoughts.

Why would the voting thread care about the Japanese set at all?
We've never cared for using the Japanese ruleset as consideration for votes, tierwise/matchup wise, why do so now?
Each region is entirely separate.

Apex will be used or some other North American ruleset.

 

[Kewkky]

ShadowLink's right, this is a tier list for SWF, not the japanese (no offense). I should've specified a ruleset beforehand. Yes, the APEX ruleset would be preferred. I'll go ahead and edit it into my OP in the other thread.

 

[Iota]

The japanese ruleset was never considered before because our tournies didn't use it. Regions used the japanese ruleset a lot after japan beat us in 2012 however, which is why it would possibly be considered now.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The japanese ruleset was never considered before because our tournies didn't use it. Regions used the japanese ruleset a lot after japan beat us in 2012 however, which is why it would possibly be considered now.

That is because most Regions are stupid.
"They beat us, that must mean their ruleset is better!"
It doesn't cross their minds that the players were simply better, and that their ruleset may be inferior.
Let alone that we have little, to no communication with Japan's Brawl community, and the means to playing with them is not within reach for most players at this time.

So to use the Japanese ruleset would serve no purpose.

 

[WindMajor]

The Brawl Back Room's reach is worldwide, so it's not really fair to say that we don't care about the Japanese. They are equally as valuable to us as any other scene, so it's not that we aren't using the Japanese ruleset because we don't care about them. It's use just isn't as wide spread as Apex's.

A worldwide organization should assume a ruleset that is used worldwide. For older projects we used to assume Unity Ruleset because it was the Smashboards standard, but since that's not a thing anymore, it's best to use the Apex ruleset since it's the ruleset that people from all over the world practice in anticipation for the largest international tournament.

 

[Shadocat]

Anyone wanna play a game of Mad Libs?

"If _______ didn't _______, he/she would be _______-tier"

lemme get 1 in real quick.

If Kirby didn't get nerfed from 64 he'd be S tier.
If Mario had kill power he'd be C tier.
If Falcon had good priority he'd be S tier.

 

[Psychoace]

lemme get 1 in real quick.


If Falcon had good priority he'd be S tier.

More like better and faster hitboxes.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

New topic: in the community tier list thread there are a lot of people [actually I think it's the majority] who believe that Marth is a better character than Snake. Let's all point our finger at these forsaken fools and laugh at them as hard as we can. Here I'll start:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHaHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ishiey]

2 Marths in APEX top8, versus 0 Snakes. Not saying the results of one tournament mean everything, even if it *is* the biggest tournament of the year with international attendance, but... yeah. I don't see why Marth > Snake is such an outrageous claim.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Cause Snake is damn good and Marth is only pretty good.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think Marth could be anywhere in the Top Tier as he goes even with virtually anyone there (minus MK).
If anything, it might only mean that they think Snake is worse than we originally thought rather than seriously believing Marth deserves a rise.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

There are also people putting Falco at 3rd.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHaHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tesh]

This is the first time Marth has ever looked like he belongs above mid tier on a US tier list. Ally went multi-main and Razer quit Brawl. Mikeneko and Mr R are top level like Razer and Ally. You should be comparing Mikehaze and the other Snakes around his level (the rest of them I guess).

Marth > Snake is as outrageous as saying ZSS>MK/Olimar/ICs. It DOES matter that its one tournament, because we have seen character look "pretty damn good" at one national then sink back into poverty (many characters at MLG had 1 hit wonders that made them look top tier for a moment).

Of course in Marth's case, his results were bad because American Marths weren't as good as we thought they were. I am guilty of pointing out that various characters toppled mikehaze/zex etc. and thus probably beat Marth. When in fact it turned out that the real top level Marths just didn't live on this continent. On that note, you have to consider matchup inexperience. If the only Marth close to Mr. R and Mikeneko's level lives aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalll the way on west coast, maybe Mr. R and Mikeneko just coasted on inexperience, like many argue Salem has or the many characters who placed top 8 at MLGs.

 

[Luigi player]

MK
Marth, ICs, Olimar, Diddy
ZSS, Falco
Snake, Pikachu, Wario

...yep, that's what it seems to me atm.

All are pretty close, it's really difficult to get a true ranking.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The Brawl Back Room's reach is worldwide, so it's not really fair to say that we don't care about the Japanese. They are equally as valuable to us as any other scene, so it's not that we aren't using the Japanese ruleset because we don't care about them. It's use just isn't as wide spread as Apex's.

Its not that no one cares, its that the barriers between communities presents a problem.
Japanese player's are not here all year round, and their metagame is shaped differently due to a different ruleset. Their tierlists reflect this, and so outside of the top tier characters, its very difficult to find much of a common ground.
Iirc, it is only recently that Sonic rose in their tier lists.

Japan is more or less isolated, where as talks with the EU part of the community is easier due to language barriers and physical barriers.

Its not that they have no value, but simply that it is impractical to consider them when their ruleset is entirely different.

A worldwide organization should assume a ruleset that is used worldwide. For older projects we used to assume Unity Ruleset because it was the Smashboards standard, but since that's not a thing anymore, it's best to use the Apex ruleset since it's the ruleset that people from all over the world practice in anticipation for the largest international tournament.

We have a world wide organization?
Yes the SBR does have members who can communicate with EU and JPN, but their community is not intergrated into our own.

Apex's ruleset is geared in mind of the more immediate audience which is why it reflects a much US influenced ruleset.
So I stand by my statement that the Japanese ruleset simply does not matter when it comes to the player ruleset.
Stages have an influence in matchups, they can alter a tierlist.


@Tesh: Marth looking as if he is ever above mid tier? That sounds silly considering Marth is, IMO, top 7 quality.
The thing that separates him from a character such as Snake or MK is he doesn't have anything abuseable. He just does well.
The smash community tends to look at extremes more favorably than those that simply do decent.

 

[Cassio]

Personally Id still consider Mikeneko the only consistent Marth. While Mr. R has always done well, his other placements in difficult tournaments can't exactly be ignored. Only noted to emphasize the importance that without Mikenekos placement at Apex, Marth would still have the same up and down results hes had for years. I could still see the potential for Marth above Snake though.

Gheb how would you argue snake to be higher in spite of his recent lack of success? I understand one argument can be made that many of his good players have quit or become rusty, but the alternate reasoning is that increasingly people are starting to understand how to beat him. Why is there more reason to believe the former as opposed to the latter?

@SL84, I feel like in the past year we've seen those barriers broken down a bit more with increased travel between communities. Ruleset differences shouldnt be ignored, but at the same time we see that within communities in the US and Europe as well.

 

[Tesh]

Its not that no one cares, its that the barriers between communities presents a problem.
Japanese player's are not here all year round, and their metagame is shaped differently due to a different ruleset. Their tierlists reflect this, and so outside of the top tier characters, its very difficult to find much of a common ground.
Iirc, it is only recently that Sonic rose in their tier lists.

Japan is more or less isolated, where as talks with the EU part of the community is easier due to language barriers and physical barriers.

Its not that they have no value, but simply that it is impractical to consider them when their ruleset is entirely different.
[quote="Dan (Twinkie), post: 15407437, member: 101009"
A worldwide organization should assume a ruleset that is used worldwide. For older projects we used to assume Unity Ruleset because it was the Smashboards standard, but since that's not a thing anymore, it's best to use the Apex ruleset since it's the ruleset that people from all over the world practice in anticipation for the largest international tournament.

We have a world wide organization?
Yes the SBR does have members who can communicate with EU and JPN, but their community is not intergrated into our own.

Apex's ruleset is geared in mind of the more immediate audience which is why it reflects a much US influenced ruleset.
So I stand by my statement that the Japanese ruleset simply does not matter when it comes to the player ruleset.
Stages have an influence in matchups, they can alter a tierlist.


@Tesh: Marth looking as if he is ever above mid tier? That sounds silly considering Marth is, IMO, top 7 quality.
The thing that separates him from a character such as Snake or MK is he doesn't have anything abuseable. He just does well.
The smash community tends to look at extremes more favorably than those that simply do decent.[/quote]

Abuse-able stuff gets stuff done though. Just ask, MK, Olimar, ICs. Marth has had a pretty high usage rate compared to other high tiers with far less to show for it. In the USA only one Marth has made more than a splash in national results, and in such cases it merely rivaled characters like Sonic, DK, Peach, Lucario etc.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@SL84, I feel like in the past year we've seen those barriers broken down a bit more with increased travel between communities. Ruleset differences shouldnt be ignored, but at the same time we see that within communities in the US and Europe as well.

While I do agree that the increased travel helps, I still think at the moment things are just too separate to consider.
*puts on a Republican hat*
These Japanese gonna be stealing our money!
WE MUST STOP EM!

Abuse-able stuff gets stuff done though. Just ask, MK, Olimar, ICs. Marth has had a pretty high usage rate compared to other high tiers with far less to show for it. In the USA only one Marth has made more than a splash in national results, and in such cases it merely rivaled characters like Sonic, DK, Peach, Lucario etc.

Well that is my point.
What makes MK so godly is how much crap he can abuse.
Marth is the character who doesn't have tools that can be abused as hard as Nado, IC's chain grab, or DDD CG.
He is simply a character that is very well rounded so its very hard to make him stand out.
It is due to this well rounded gameplay, however, that he is a better than a great majority of the cast.
Heck if you do process of elimination, you'll find there are not many characters that perform better than him matchup wise, and even with weighted matchups he is still very high up.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why does everyone give Marth the benefit of the doubt constantly

OMG he did well! This confirms everything I have ever thought about Marth! Hell, he's probably better than Snake now!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why does everyone give Marth the benefit of the doubt constantly?

Because he isn't Donkey Kong.

 

[Shaya]

Basically, anyone who's ever trained with a Marth main and gets to learn what Marth is capable of tends to disregard Gheb/Tesh/SFP logic for "wow marth is ****ing amazing how are you guys all so bad at life?"

In which we reply

"we just really wanted that second forward air rather than keeping the situation in my advantage"

 

[Seagull Joe]

New topic: in the community tier list thread there are a lot of people [actually I think it's the majority] who believe that Marth is a better character than Snake. Let's all point our finger at these forsaken fools and laugh at them as hard as we can. Here I'll start:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHaHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why the tier list isn't made by the community.

 

[Tesh]

im actually willing to accept US marth mains are just bad after seeing mikeneko and mr r at apex.

until then it was only logical that marth was bad.

he still needs to move down, not up

 

[ShadowLink84]

until then it was only logical that marth was bad.

No it isn't, it isn't logical at all.
MK is still an amazing character even if everyone sucked balls with him.
The character doesn't change just because the player's using him/her/it is lacking in skill.

 

[B0NK]

*Logic*

 

[Dcold]

If that was true then there would be no need to change the tier list, as the characters aren't changing, they're still as good as they always were.

 

[Bowser D.X]

New topic: in the community tier list thread there are a lot of people [actually I think it's the majority] who believe that Marth is a better character than Snake. Let's all point our finger at these forsaken fools and laugh at them as hard as we can. Here I'll start:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHaHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ShadowLink84]

If that was true then there would be no need to change the tier list, as the characters aren't changing, they're still as good as they always were.

It depends on the type of list you use.
If we are considering matchup lists, you'll find that they very rarely show any change.
Sure there is a short period where everything is being figured out, but eventually they reach a point where they've become rigid.

On the other hand, you have weighted matchups, which changed according to the current metagame. This can shift depending on what occurs but even then, it won't shift greatly.

Marth is still a very good character regardless of what people say, otherwise, if players determined tier listing then there would be only two tiers. MK, and everyone else below him.

 

[Luco]

Basically, anyone who's ever trained with a Marth main and gets to learn what Marth is capable of tends to disregard Gheb/Tesh/SFP logic for "wow marth is ****ing amazing how are you guys all so bad at life?"

In which we reply

"we just really wanted that second forward air rather than keeping the situation in my advantage"

I will say that I think Marth is absolutely deserving of where he is.

I think, SFP, the reason I give him the benefit of the doubt is mainly because I feel that he's actually a super great character but severely technical in that it's incredibly hard to pull him off at a level which gets him places.

Then when he does I think 'Gee Marth is actually pretty good and I think he deserves his placing.'

That could just be me.

Also, i've noticed that grim hasn't posted in ages and suddenly, neither has bubba or Quest.

Am I the last one on Seagull's 'to murder' list?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pointing the c-stick forward is pretty hard

 

[Luco]

Pointing the c-stick forward is pretty hard

I personally find it's more about timing and patience. For such an intelligent poster, why are you being so short and punchy when it comes to marth? As far as i can see he's just... a rather great all-round character.

I dunno whether he's above snake or not, as you can see by my vote.

But I don't think he should be going down...

 

[Kewkky]

Marth really is one of the best jack-of-all-trades in the game, IMO. I would never put him above Snake myself due to my experiences against both characters though, but I can understand why some people would. Sometimes Marths do better in some regions than others, and sometimes Snakes take that spot. It's not unbelievable to believe that people's opinions are formed from experiences. That's why we debate in the first place, to correct other people's opinions and/or be corrected in return. Laughing at others for having a different opinion makes a lot of people doubt you as an intelligent poster, and your presence in threads becomes annoying and unwanted. Gheb, Seagull, Shiny Mewtwo and others, please try to be a little more mature. Antagonizing others for their opinions will never make them change their votes.

 

[Dcold]

That short period of time is not as short as you'd imagine. That's the only reason that matchups change in the first place, because people figure things out and learn how to get around certain obstacles. To assume that a character is not at a high level because no one has yet proved so is perfectly logical, it'd be silly to assume that Marth or any character was amazing until you see a reason to, and in smash the only real reasoning is tournament results. It's the equivalent to new players thinking Ike is amazing because of his strength, but at tournament level no one plays Ike to a high level to show that he is as good as thought (shoutouts to the man Ryo). Does that mean that Ike is still amazing, but the players that use him suck?

What does the tier list reflect if it does not reflect how good characters are based on how well they do in the current metagame? Anything other than that, in my mind, would just be a compromise of everyone's opinion, rather than anything sound to base it off of.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The tier list is usually based more on opinions and hype dished with results. Something I don't agree with to show what a character can really do. In this case is based more on player skill then what a character can actually do.

 

[B0NK]

Don't worry, once the new match-up chart is released, we'll have a more objective basis for our tier list

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Looking at some of the tier lists that people have made, I think that thread might have been a very, very bad idea. lollll

COMMUNITY TIER LIST

SSS: MARTH, MK
A: ICs, KING DEDEDE, PIKACHU
B: FALCO, DIDDY KONG, PEACH
C: WARIO, LINK
D: TOON LINK, MARIO
E: ZERO SUIT SAMUS, LUCARIO
..
..
H: SNAKE

 

[RaptorTEC]

I didn't even have to look to know it would be a bad idea.