Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

DRN got 33rd at Apex 2012 with ZSS btw. The results thread says Kirby, I have no ****ing clue why, but it's wrong XD

 

[Cassio]

Added. Also Im not saying that ZSS is bad or that she wont start placing consistently high, only that its yet to happen.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Working harder does does not mean weaker. In melee Fox and Falco are much harder to use then Sheik. Yet they are both better then Sheik. you can't think like that to state who is better. It's about their over all character stats and options. Not difficulty of use. Thats not how you judge a character. You are completely ignoring all that they can do.

Now if I was to go on about who is better between them, I would break them down. And as usual, not soly go on results. Results are usually based on player skill more then character stats. or else the results for many things would remain the same. Which they don't.

Marth:

- Better and solid air game.

- Harder to deal with on block

- Better at poking shield

- Better juggler

- Faster

- Better edgeguarder

- Counter option OoS

- Better wall mid range

- Better ledge options

- More options to punish evasions under pressure.

Snake:

- Better ground game.

- Better stage control.

- Better ways to recover

- Can cover both air and ground options at once.

- Can kill earlier

- Lives longer

- a grab can equal a stock.

- a grab can lead to alot of damage.

- Rack up damage at a distance

- Blind spot won't usually cost him his stock as soon.

- harder to approach

- Force an approach

There might be more from these 2 but I can't think of any as of right now. Snake/Marth players can add to this or correct me on my list here. As for thier match ups. I don't know how they work. So I can't really say who is better cause of that. It's best i know how their tools help against the most used characters for me to have a final opinion. Guess I'll have to do my homework on that.

But for the character break down I have here, it seems snake would give people more problems. Him controlling the stage helps alot and people can not get on him so easily. He can force people to jump or stay grounded. And more ways to finish the enemy.

This is a good post. But I think it's missing something.

What can Kirby do to Falco? He is slow as **** and Falco destroys him in close combat. I can see bair being useful and copying lasers, but anything actually awesome so he doesn't lose badly?

Oh come on.

Really depends on how much you weight Apex. Actually I think its really only valid if you use Apex as the sole determining factor for ZSS, otherwise taken as a whole ZSS has been just as inconsistent if not moreso than Marth.

math pls

Salem beat ZeRo and M2K after Apex btw (oh and ADHD finally)

I narrated this post word for word

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I think we should talk about Popo. After ADHD's performance against 9B at Apex I think ICs can be considered 2nd best in the game, because even when Nana is gone Popo is capable of taking multiple stocks off of top level players using top tier characters.

I also think Popo should get his own spot on the tier list, right above Falco, for the same reasons I just listed about ICs.

Remember kids, if you use Popo, you'll be a winner!

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think we should talk about Popo. After ADHD's performance against 9B at Apex I think ICs can be considered 2nd best in the game, because even when Nana is gone Popo is capable of taking multiple stocks off of top level players using top tier characters.

I also think Popo should get his own spot on the tier list, right above Falco, for the same reasons I just listed about ICs.

Remember kids, if you use Popo, you'll be a winner!

this is getting out of hand

 

[Labernash]

Ness isn't better than Kirby and Ike you scrubs.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Ness isn't better than Kirby and Ike you scrubs.

They're all fantastic characters.

 

[pidgezero_one]

fantastic at sucking

 

[Seagull Joe]

Precisely.

 

[Luco]

Ness isn't better than Kirby and Ike you scrubs.

It's like marketing: It doesn't matter what the heck the product is, so long as it's marketed well, it'll sell!

Personally I think Ness is in the same tier, not sure where exactly, which is why in my vote I put him at the end of it...

Aw well.

 

[Luco]

Working harder does does not mean weaker. In melee Fox and Falco are much harder to use then Sheik. Yet they are both better then Sheik. you can't think like that to state who is better. It's about their over all character stats and options. Not difficulty of use. Thats not how you judge a character. You are completely ignoring all that they can do.

Now if I was to go on about who is better between them, I would break them down. And as usual, not soly go on results. Results are usually based on player skill more then character stats. or else the results for many things would remain the same. Which they don't.

Marth:
- Better and solid air game.
- Harder to deal with on block
- Better at poking shield
- Better juggler
- Faster
- Better edgeguarder
- Counter option OoS
- Better wall mid range
- Better ledge options
- More options to punish evasions under pressure.



Snake:
- Better ground game.
- Better stage control.
- Better ways to recover
- Can cover both air and ground options at once.
- Can kill earlier
- Lives longer
- a grab can equal a stock.
- a grab can lead to alot of damage.
- Rack up damage at a distance
- Blind spot won't usually cost him his stock as soon.
- harder to approach
- Force an approach

There might be more from these 2 but I can't think of any as of right now. Snake/Marth players can add to this or correct me on my list here. As for thier match ups. I don't know how they work. So I can't really say who is better cause of that. It's best i know how their tools help against the most used characters for me to have a final opinion. Guess I'll have to do my homework on that.

But for the character break down I have here, it seems snake would give people more problems. Him controlling the stage helps alot and people can not get on him so easily. He can force people to jump or stay grounded. And more ways to finish the enemy.

I like the lists you've drawn up (though i'm neither here nor there when it comes to the entire process, i'm yet to be convinced but i'm not entirely skeptical of it either!), I did just realize something you forgot for marth that you applied to snake: A grab from marth can be really bad. He has some scary and insane combos on his down throw and what, back throw? He has guaranteed stuff on some characters and infinites on others. Snake has guaranteed stuff on chars but as far as I knew he didn't have an infinite on most... I could totally be wrong?

Anyway, just saying that marth's grab game is a potent factor in his character as well, just something to think about and maybe add. =)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Marth only has grab stuff like that at low percents or on characters with grab release problems, so he didnt forget anything.

 

[Luco]

Marth only has grab stuff like that at low percents or on characters with grab release problems, so he didnt forget anything.

You're sure? I seem to recall seeing a match where he Dthrowed to bair someone (the commentators said it was guaranteed I think) at a high percent, got the tipper and the other char died.

My memory could be foggy though. But isn't that still a pretty decent feat at low percents? =)

 

[smashkng]

Marth's throws are NOT bad. Whoever says that has not played against a good Marth. Although they deal little damage, they follow-up better than MK's throws IMO. Even at higher percents they put the opponent at horrible positions. If they DI up forward throw, Marth gets an almost free hit. If they DI down and are close to the edge, they are force to the ledge, while Marth can rack up damage with his amazing ledge trap game. If he throws from the center of BF, the plataforms makes it even easier to get a hit after Fthrow even though it nullifies our GR on MK. Dthrow does about the same as forward throw, except maybe it being a bit harder to follow-up. If you guys have seen Mikeneko, you can see that Uthrowing set ups for his great juggle game.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol I never said Marth's throws were bad, I only said DP didnt forget anything when he left it out. Besides, getting a single fair after a down throw is only an extra, what 3% more than a normal fair? Its nothing too crazy. Marth grabs are definitely good, dont get me wrong, but she doesnt have the best grabs.

And Luco, thats grab release.

 

[smashkng]

Still Fair usually leads to even more follow-ups, like sending them or into the air, or just setting up pressure on the opponent. When you combine Marth's moves and use them in the right way at the right time, that's when he becomes top tier.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't post here anymore cause I have better things to do now

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth's grab is good but his throws deal some of the least damage of any throws in the game. lol

 

[Luco]

Lol I never said Marth's throws were bad, I only said DP didnt forget anything when he left it out. Besides, getting a single fair after a down throw is only an extra, what 3% more than a normal fair? Its nothing too crazy. Marth grabs are definitely good, dont get me wrong, but she doesnt have the best grabs.

And Luco, thats grab release.

Nah nah, even at higher percents his throws lead in to stuff. It was definitely the Dthrow to Bair, I'm sure there's a combo like that... gah.

I should point out that by no means do i consider Marth to be above Snake by this. I can see the argument for it but i'm a little more skeptical at this point. I'm just saying I think marth's grabs aren't something to be ignored.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Marth's throws are good, but they aren't as good as snakes D-throw tech chase.
(Dark Peach's analysis is pretty much spot on)

Maybe add that Marth gets to recover to the ledge, but snake is forced in most cases to recover high.

 

[Dark.Pch]

You're sure? I seem to recall seeing a match where he Dthrowed to bair someone (the commentators said it was guaranteed I think) at a high percent, got the tipper and the other char died. My memory could be foggy though. But isn't that still a pretty decent feat at low percents? =)

My list compares who does something better then the other. Marth list states all the things he does better then snake. And vice versa. I did not put in Marths throws cause they are not better then what snake can do off his. Snakes Dthrow keeps the enemy near him no matter what % for more harrassment. Marth has to chase his enemy after his throw. Marth can put people in nasty situations in his throws. Snake how ever can do the same thing and he hardly has to move. It becomes worst if he does it near his traps/nades. Even if Snake guess wrong on the tech chase. Those trap can make up for it and you still take a hit. And back throw to tipper I don't think its legit. You can escape that with DI on the throw. When people get thrown off the ledge vs Marth, people usually DI towards him cause they don't wanna be sent close to the death zone. And this gives Marth of a better chance to land moves like fair/bair. At Low % Percents in this situation I smash DI his fairs so I can stop the combo and it up a lil above/behind Marth and make it on stage.

 

[Illuvial]

Working harder does does not mean weaker. In melee Fox and Falco are much harder to use then Sheik. Yet they are both better then Sheik. you can't think like that to state who is better. It's about their over all character stats and options. Not difficulty of use. Thats not how you judge a character. You are completely ignoring all that they can do.

I am fairly certain you missed the point of that post. I do believe that Snake is better, but I was speaking to the people that were saying that Snake has almost NO consistent players repping him. I was saying that Snake's more awkward and riskier moveset and playstyle turn him off to most.

Of course, I should have elaborated on why I think Snake is better in my original post, but considering that claiming Snake is better was not the point of the post, I think it was ok.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Marth grabs are definitely good, dont get me wrong, but she doesnt have the best grabs.

"She".

 

[Jabejazz]

"She".

I don't see anything wrong here.

 

[Tesh]

Marth's throws are actually pretty garbage if he isn't chaingrabbing you. The damage is remarkably pathetic. Good throws do 10+ damage and set up for stuff (im talking about MK, Snake, Falco even Sonic and Squirtle). Doing the most pathetic throw damage in the game, then struggling to follow up vs good DI isn't anything worth noting as a pro for the character.

At least Lucario's super low damage throw kind of sets up his Uair/Fair very well.

 

[smashkng]

Marth's throws don't need to deal much damage when he gets almost guaranteed follow-ups or puts opponents in a bad position. Marth's moveset is perfect for following up with his throws. Getting grabbed by Marth is never good guys. I'd rather get grabbed by a Diddy.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Still Fair usually leads to even more follow-ups, like sending them or into the air, or just setting up pressure on the opponent. When you combine Marth's moves and use them in the right way at the right time, that's when he becomes top tier.

lol, all i said was throw > fair was an extra 3% and nothing else, so unless youre trying to say Marth can only follow up after a fair if he threw first, then Im not disagreeing with you.

Nah nah, even at higher percents his throws lead in to stuff. It was definitely the Dthrow to Bair, I'm sure there's a combo like that... gah.

I should point out that by no means do i consider Marth to be above Snake by this. I can see the argument for it but i'm a little more skeptical at this point. I'm just saying I think marth's grabs aren't something to be ignored.

1. No one is saying Marths throws are bad, we're just saying Snake > Marth when it comes to throws
2. Marth can dthrow > dair, but only at low percent unless the other person deliberately tries to DI into it. That or GR > dair. I guarantee it.

Marth's throws are good, but they aren't as good as snakes D-throw tech chase.
(Dark Peach's analysis is pretty much spot on)

^ This.

"She".

Im not seeing the problem.

EDIT: Wow my grammar and spelling was awful loool

 

[B0NK]

So after all this discussion, Snake is better than Marth right?

 

[Luco]

I don't think those of us talking about Marth's grabs were trying to argue that marth is better than snake. We were just arguing that we thought Marth's grbs were potent.

And I mis-understood Dark Peach's method of categorizing characters. I thought he was talking purely about good character benefits rather than who can do it better. I dunno exactly who's is better, I find I see Marth's getting more out of it but then again I haven't watched an awful lot of Snake recently.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think we should talk about Popo. After ADHD's performance against 9B at Apex I think ICs can be considered 2nd best in the game, because even when Nana is gone Popo is capable of taking multiple stocks off of top level players using top tier characters.

I also think Popo should get his own spot on the tier list, right above Falco, for the same reasons I just listed about ICs.

Remember kids, if you use Popo, you'll be a winner!

I would like to see a concensus of Solopopo's ranking next to the others. He might be better than Ganon. I at least have an ice block and blizzard to annoy opponents with rather than having nothing as Ganon.

 

[Luco]

LABERNASH!

I see you.

I thought it was a given that SoPo was better than ganon lol.

 

[Jabejazz]

I would like to see a concensus of Solopopo's ranking next to the others. He might be better than Ganon. I at least have an ice block and blizzard to annoy opponents with rather than having nothing as Ganon.

He's likely better than Ganon, however I don't think ranking him is relevant. Since you don't "choose" to play SoPo as opposed to choosing Zelda/Sheik, Samus/ZSS. Plus, it sounds complicated to rank him accurately, considering we have few, (if any) matches where the player purposefully kills Nana before actually fighting.

 

[-LzR-]

People are comparing SoPo to Ganon? Can Ganon chaingrab the whole cast reasonably well or even 0-death some characters? Sopo still has a very good uair and a decent bair. Keep him onstage and he will put up a fight. It's not like Ganon, Link or Sopo or whatever will recover anyways.

 

[infiniteV115]

People are comparing Ganon to Sopo? Ganon can pseudo-chaingrab the whole cast reasonably well and even 0-death MVD. Ganon still has a very good uair and a decent bair. Keep him onstage and he will put up a fight. It's not like Ganon, Link or Sopo or whatever will recover anyways.

 

[DeLux]

Which characters does Sopo 0 to death (assuming people don't waste their jump trying to mash out of the solo dthrow)?

 

[-LzR-]

Which characters does Sopo 0 to death (assuming people don't waste their jump trying to mash out of the solo dthrow)?

I heard something like Wolf and Falcon, but I don't mean it's guaranteed, but puts those characters in a situation that allows SoPo to gimp them if he reads correctly.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

People are comparing Ganon to Sopo? Ganon can pseudo-chaingrab the whole cast reasonably well and even 0-death MVD. Ganon still has a very good uair and a decent bair. Keep him onstage and he will put up a fight. It's not like Ganon, Link or Sopo or whatever will recover anyways.

Yeah but Popo has a +4 MU against ADHD, and ADHD is a much bigger tournament threat than MVD is, because ADHD has 4 letters and MVD only has 3 and 4>3

Therefore I conclude that Popo > Ganon, Falco and MK.

But Popo < Puff

Puff > All

That can not be disputed

 

[Jabejazz]

Yeah but Popo has a +4 MU against ADHD, and ADHD is a much bigger tournament threat than MVD is, because ADHD has 4 letters and MVD only has 3 and 4>3

Therefore I conclude that Popo > Ganon, Falco and MK.

But Popo < Puff

Puff > All

That can not be disputed

Wow what the **** are you retar-

>Doctor of Philosophy in Smash Community Studies
10/10 analysis, would buy your book

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Wow what the **** are you retar-

>Doctor of Philosophy in Smash Community Studies
10/10 analysis, would buy your book

Hey, don't you patronize my doctorate!

 

[Illuvial]

Shiny Mewtwo just won the Smashboards forums guys. Let's all just log off and never come back, he won.