Official BBR Tier List v7

[blacktwins13]

If your name was Blackdwins13 then the two of you arguing = BDSM

BSMD is more accurate IMO

 

[infiniteV115]

You mean cause SM is inside BD?
Sounds like BDSM alright

 

[pidgezero_one]

^WHOA dude

 

[Espy Rose]

I'd be questioning Drk Peach's intelligence even more if he DIDN'T suspect me of making that post.
It'd be like missing the obvious joke.

 

[Coolwhip]

I still feel that mario should be mid-tier imo, maybe i can change that.

Shame on an idiot that will try to flame me after reading this post.

 

[NickRiddle]

No flaming needed.
Mario is bad.

 

[Coolwhip]

No flaming needed.
Mario is bad.

I been hearing that since the very beginning & most still lose to one.
I came in 13th place at a tourney few weeks back w/mario. (2nd in pools)

 

[NickRiddle]

13 out of how many?
Also, most people are bad, so losing to something bad doesn't mean anything.

 

[Jabejazz]

Hey, don't you patronize my doctorate!

Dead serious son. Publish a book and I'll buy it top dolla.

I been hearing that since the very beginning & most still lose to one.
I came in 13th place at a tourney few weeks back w/mario. (2nd in pools)

Only way to show Mario is good is to come up with new setups people haven't see yet.
Outsmarting people doesn't make a character suddenly good. Only shows you played better.

Mario is bad because his KO efficiency is lousy, relying heavily on smashes, has a sub-par and predictable recovery, and has terrible range in most of his attacks overall. Those are facts.
You can't base how good a character is only on his match results anyway, whether you placed 1st or 32nd is not as important as knowing how versatile your character is.

And as Nick said : "13 out of how many?"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Mario is really really bad, I think he's second worst above Jiggs.

He has a lot of the properties of a good character minus range. If Mario were as tall as Snake he'd be really hard to handle or at least a lot better.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I been hearing that since the very beginning & most still lose to one.
I came in 13th place at a tourney few weeks back w/mario. (2nd in pools)

I'm sorry kid, but losing to Ryker and blindspot are unacceptable. That AL/GA tourney that gladiel got 4th at had like 3 good players. Getting 13th out of 30 is not that good, but good for

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Kid? How condescending can you be?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Kid? How condescending can you be?

Fairly.

 

[BSP]

Mario has a -4 against MK. I don't think mid tier is happening.

 

[Kingslayer]

Sorry to draw the discussion away from Mario for a sec, but I noticed that one of the main reasons Olimar jumped so high on the list was because 4 of the top 16 at apex '12 were using him. You think we'll see ZSS jump up a few spots after Salem's performance at apex '13? I dunno who she'd knock out of A/B tier though (Wario?).

 

[TM_icecream]

Yes because Wario is super bad

 

[Luco]

Sorry to draw the discussion away from Mario for a sec, but I noticed that one of the main reasons Olimar jumped so high on the list was because 4 of the top 16 at apex '12 were using him. You think we'll see ZSS jump up a few spots after Salem's performance at apex '13? I dunno who she'd knock out of A/B tier though (Wario?).

Hi there! And yea, it's thought that Olimar was given a huge bump (quite possibly too much of a bump, or at least i've always thought so, but only slighty) because of Apex 2012. And it's not like he won either. ZSS at first is gigantic. Ironically, I only think she'll go up a few spots. 2 or 3 IMO. It's interesting...

 

[Iota]

Yes because Wario is super bad

No.

 

[Luco]

No.

I must admit, it's hard to see wario going anywhere else, unless you plan to make high tier a three-character jig.

 

[Attila_]

mario has a great bair, and a good upB, but the rest of his moveset is terrible. he is most definitely not mid tier material.

and peach is also terrible.

Did you discover the rest of her airdodge?

haven't laughed that hard in a while.

 

[Illuvial]

Jabejazz, the tier is influenced by tournament placements, so him just doing exceptional with Mario would affect his place on the tier. DK went down because he wasn't placing much, and when he did he was not placing well In tourneys. Of course, 1 tournament will not affect much, but if he can keep it up and show that Mario has some more potential then Mario can definitely go up.

Regardless, I still find Mario to be one of the worst characters in the game though.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Sorry to draw the discussion away from Mario for a sec, but I noticed that one of the main reasons Olimar jumped so high on the list was because 4 of the top 16 at apex '12 were using him. You think we'll see ZSS jump up a few spots after Salem's performance at apex '13? I dunno who she'd knock out of A/B tier though (Wario?).

Nice name, but please fix your location. The Kingslayer lives in King's Landing, not at Casterly Rock.

oh right your post has content in it as well.

ZSS will probably go up a few spots, but I don't think it will be as dramatic as Olimar's rise after Apex 2012

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo ZSS should only go up one, maybe two spots.

She should have been above Wario for a looong time, and imo she could pass up Pikachu possibly (imo those two are pretty interchangeable)

 

[Illuvial]

I don't know about Zero Suit passing up Pikachu since I still think Pikachu should be a top B tier character. I am still baffled that Pikachu is not a couple spots higher on the tier already, but hopefully the next tier will fix that.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Literally only one person in the world does semi good with Pikachu, and thats ESAM, and he doesnt even Solo Pikachu and goes mostly ICs.

Outside of ESAM, literally nobody does anything even remotely noteworthy, and ESAM doesnt even go 50% Pika the majority of the time.

Pika = massively overrated, if he were as good as people think why does literally NO ONE do anything with the character? In fact, Im even starting to think Im overrating Pika when I say ZSS/Pika are interchangeable a bit now that Im thinking into it more lol

And concluding my 'thinking it over more', imo top tier should be (and this is not in order, if you notice theyre in alphabetical order):
Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Marth, Meta Knight, Olimar, Snake, Zero Suit Samus

And thats it.

 

[Luco]

Nice name, but please fix your location. The Kingslayer lives in King's Landing, not at Casterly Rock.

oh right your post has content in it as well.

ZSS will probably go up a few spots, but I don't think it will be as dramatic as Olimar's rise after Apex 2012

Actually the way the kingslayer is going currently, I don't think King's Landing is his home anymore, or at least it won't be much longer.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Since we haven't talked about ZSS enough yet: A japanese wifi ZSS player named Choco attended his first offline tourney yesterday [or today, depending on your timezone]. He beat 9B in winners final and eventually got 2nd out of ~140 entrants. 9B beat him in GF1 and 2, making ICs the single worst matchup for ZSS if we base it on results. Counting Vinnie's 4-0 recod vs Salem, 9B's win against NR and his 2-1 record vs Choco as well as 9B's win against Kamemushi at that tournament, it's currently 8-1 in ICs favor. That's a pretty terrible record, especially if we take into consideration that a lot of these losses for ZSS were not close at all. So what do we learn from it?

1.) ZSS players have no ****ing clue about their character's matchups if you ask me. Where is the idea coming from that ZSS beats ICs and DDD? Why do ZSS players still think they lose to Diddy when that matchup has one of the most even matchup records possible? And why are they starting to take Falco a lot more lightly when there's nothing to suggest that the matchup has improved for her in any way? I mean, I'm not saying that you should completely subscribe to my way of interpreting results but when you have seven big losses against IC players and only one win within the last one and a half years you should probably realize that it's time to question your claim to you have an advantage against them. Even 0 seems completely utopical at this point

2.) People need to stfu about her results being not very consistent and mostly based on individual skill. Results are proving quite the opposite. Salem, NR, quiK, Kamemushi and Choco all place well in completely different regions and beat their respective top players. Actually, no character other than MK could possibly claim to have ever had 5 [Five!!!] such successful players at one time. Meanwhile other characters such as *coughMarthcough* continue to do almost nothing at all except having its entire metagame carried by one or two outstanding individuals. If you think Marth should rise on the tier list because of his results you are a massive hypocrite unless you have ZSS above her [and Snake but that's a different story]. And this is coming from the guy who used to argue that ZSS might be mid tier half a year ago.

mario has a great bair, and a good upB, but the rest of his moveset is terrible. he is most definitely not mid tier material.

UpB isn't actually good though. Most peolpe have no idea how easy it is to SDI it. His jab is pretty good though.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Actually the way the kingslayer is going currently, I don't think King's Landing is his home anymore, or at least it won't be much longer.

idk how much of the show has been shown in Australia yet, and I can assume you haven't read the books, so click the following spoiler box AT YOUR OWN RISK (that goes for anyone who cares about the show and hasn't read the books)






MASSIVE GAME OF THRONES SPOILERS
[collapse=CLICK AT YOUR OWN RISK]99% of Jaime makes it back to King's Landing safely[/collapse]

 

[Kingslayer]

Well 1% can be a huge difference.

I could see ZSS jumping up maybe a spot above Pikachu but I don't know about any higher. Over time I (if these results stay consistent) she could maybe knock Marth down one too but her matchups against Falco, Snake, ICs and Olimar would probably prevent her from going any higher.

Is ESAM really the only good Pikachu in the world?

 

[Jabejazz]

Jabejazz, the tier is influenced by tournament placements, so him just doing exceptional with Mario would affect his place on the tier. DK went down because he wasn't placing much, and when he did he was not placing well In tourneys. Of course, 1 tournament will not affect much, but if he can keep it up and show that Mario has some more potential then Mario can definitely go up.

Regardless, I still find Mario to be one of the worst characters in the game though.

Tournament results are more often than not a result of players making the most of their character tools. The reason why a Mario will not place high in a tourney is because how limited his options are against most of the cast. Olimar placed well in 2012 because Olimar players knew how to make the most of his amazing tool set. Olimar deserved that 2nd place in the tier list a long time ago, people just weren't able to optimize the use of his tools yet.

If that guy really can come up with exceptional results with Mario, and make more players main Mario, and these new Mario mains come up with exceptional results, yes, he'll deserve a bump. But then, it's clearly because Mario's tools aren't fully discovered yet. The only way to actually win big with Mario with what we know of him is to severely outplay your opponent, which is not a contributing factor in a tier list bump.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well 1% can be a huge difference.

I could see ZSS jumping up maybe a spot above Pikachu but I don't know about any higher. Over time I (if these results stay consistent) she could maybe knock Marth down one too but her matchups against Falco, Snake, ICs and Olimar would probably prevent her from going any higher.

Is ESAM really the only good Pikachu in the world?

Implying you know anything about ZSS' match-ups. Also implying Marth's match-ups are half as good as Marth players say they are.

 

[Kingslayer]

I don't really, at least not from experience or actual knowledge.
I just trusted this: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBB) and took Gheb_01's word for the ZSS/IC matchup.

 

[Gardex]

2.) People need to stfu about her results being not very consistent and mostly based on individual skill. Results are proving quite the opposite. Salem, NR, quiK, Kamemushi and Choco all place well in completely different regions and beat their respective top players.

While I agree with your point, I'm not really seeing why Kamemushi should be among those players, and Choco only has a single result(so far, of course).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Kamemushi usually place around 9th or worse? I think he maybe had like one great placement, but that's about it.

EDIT: OK, I see now that he got 4th at the same tournament.(Although with Wario aswell)

 

[Shaya]

Also implying Marth's match-ups are half as good as Marth players say they are.

They're twice as good as people say they are

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

They're twice as good as people say they are

This just in, Marth has a +6 on PT, Ness, Lucas, Jigglypuff, Zelda and Ganon

 

[B0NK]

Sounds about right

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't really, at least not from experience or actual knowledge.
I just trusted this: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBB) and took Gheb_01's word for the ZSS/IC matchup.

ZSS' -1 match-ups are Olimar and MK for sure. Falco is -1 and debatably even. Diddy is probably 0, I don't know if that will change in the MU chart coming up. Wario is debatable, I lean towards -1 but Wario is a non-factor tbh. ICs is weird, I think it's 0 though. Going by results it looks less than favorable, but last time Vinnie and Salem played, Salem hadn't gone into hyperbolic time chamber training in PA and 9B vs. NickRiddle was just a skill discrepancy and nothing more. Also Choco beat 9B in winners and lost in GFs, so it wasn't a shut-out. Snake is even. Stay salty, Sage.

ZSS' top tier match-ups at top levels IMO:

MK -1
Olimar -1
DIddy 0
ICs 0
Snake 0
Falco -1
ZSS +4 ZSS always wins
Pikachu -1
Marth 0

In tourney ZSS' biggest problems are gonna be MK, Olimar, and Falco players who play carefully and know the match-up well. And Ally. LOL

 

[Dekillsage]

**** you supermodel LOL

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

1.) ZSS players have no ****ing clue about their character's matchups if you ask me. Where is the idea coming from that ZSS beats ICs and DDD? Why do ZSS players still think they lose to Diddy when that matchup has one of the most even matchup records possible? And why are they starting to take Falco a lot more lightly when there's nothing to suggest that the matchup has improved for her in any way? I mean, I'm not saying that you should completely subscribe to my way of interpreting results but when you have seven big losses against IC players and only one win within the last one and a half years you should probably realize that it's time to question your claim to you have an advantage against them. Even 0 seems completely utopical at this point

1. You have a point about ICs, but I think ICs is a match-up that takes a while to learn and do well in. I'll concede to this point for now but ZSS has the perfect kit to handle ICs including moves that are save on block, awesome punishes, and an aerial set designed perfectly to keep them separated. ESAM hates the match-up, could just be him. ZSS players have gotten a lot better lately; remember that ZSS lost to every Diddy Kong like a year ago too, that match-up record was abysmal despite it appearing that ZSS had tools there.

2. I lose you at Falco. V115 lost to xzax but beat Shugo like a week later. NR hasn't lost to a Falco in ages. Salem lost to Shadow at Impact in 2011, but has beaten xzax, Atomsk (lol though), and Keitaro, and like 3-stocked DEHF in some MM they didn't get to finish, if you want to count that. Falco's record vs ZSS is like abysmal. If you want to say ICs beat ZSS because of a bad tourney record you've got to acknowledge Falco's disadvantage to zero suit.

But then, I think zero suit loses to Falco because I know that tourney record says stuff, but doesn't always tell the whole story. I mean, what's ZSS' recent record vs MK? Shouldn't that be +1 ZSS or 0? Of course not. But Salem ahs an even record or so vs M2K and Zero, and has beaten Tyrant, Dojo, and Otori.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why is Ally so good vs ? V115=best practice?

Pretty sure Salem fears playing Ally more then anyone else.