Official BBR Tier List v7

[Psychoace]

That 9b guy sucks to.

 

[NH Cody]

Dabuz did better than 9b did at apex...

 

[Crackle]

That's a good new topic

 

[infiniteV115]

Mr.R and Mikeneko outplaced all Olimars at Apex
Marth > Oli.

Salem got 1st at Apex.
ZSS best char in the game.

9B outplaced all Snakes at Apex, and ESAM and Vinnie tied Ally and outplaced all other Snakes.
ICs > Snake.

Shaky outplaced all TLs at Apex.
Ness > TL.

etc etc etc

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Mr.R and Mikeneko outplaced all Olimars at Apex
Marth > Oli.

Salem got 1st at Apex.
ZSS best char in the game.

9B outplaced all Snakes at Apex, and ESAM and Vinnie tied Ally and outplaced all other Snakes.
ICs > Snake.

Shaky outplaced all TLs at Apex.
Ness > TL.

etc etc etc

Hey slow down now. You are only allowed to use results to support certain opinions. You can't just go and look at all of the results. That would produce too many logicaly sound arguments and internally consistent positions. Stop that and talk about how amazing things like peach and jiggly puff are.

 

[Psychoace]

And Mikeneko and salem did better than dabuz.

apex 2012: olimar 2nd > ice climbers 5th
impulse: olimar 1st > ice climbers 5th

SKTAR: ice climbers 2nd and 3rd > olimar 7th
whobo 4: ice climbers 1st > olimar 25th (unless you count ally who used like 5 different characters, I'm not sure how much he won with oli)
SRT: ice climbers 2nd and 5th > olimar 13th

apex 2013: olimar 7th > ice climbers 9th

 

[NH Cody]

oh, okay, I guess ICs have had better results in the last year. I didn't even realize

I do think Olimar is a better character though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Waba results too?

 

[NH Cody]

yeah, ESAM won that with ICs.

 

[Attila_]

Mr.R and Mikeneko outplaced all Olimars at Apex
Marth > Oli.

Salem got 1st at Apex.
ZSS best char in the game.

9B outplaced all Snakes at Apex, and ESAM and Vinnie tied Ally and outplaced all other Snakes.
ICs > Snake.

Shaky outplaced all TLs at Apex.
Ness > TL.

etc etc etc

if you take ally out of the equation, top snake at apex placed top 30.

in fact, ally also used mk to get his placing; no solo snake placed higher than top 30. and all top snakes were in attendance. i think that's pretty significant.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah I've been realizing more and more recently how much Ally is an outlier. That said I don't think any other Snakes (not just looking at how they place but the players themselves) can be considered top level players atm, and that isn't just because Ally's way better than the rest.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yeah we ****ed up. From what I know even if ally went other characters they didn't bring him much success.
Fow 3stocked him game 1 in the mk ditto and he won that set with snake. I don't know how his set with pwii went but I know it was really close. Lost to Dabuz as MK as well.... Not ally's best day.

@v115
Yeah no other snake in NA is even close to being in ally's league. Razer was the closest but he still had troubling match ups(like ddd for example).
My biggest issue is that even if we don't have top snake players everyone who plays snake has developed different tactics and suffers in different match ups. Razer was really good at the olimar match up, and players like bizkit demonstrate a strong defensive playstyle. Mvd uses things like c4 sticks and other unorthodox tactics other people don't take advantage of. We haven't put it all together, nor do we have a player atm who can properly do so... oh well. Maybe this year someone will

 

[NH Cody]

Like I said in the other thread, claiming that there are no good snakes besides Ally right now is ridiculous. At least we know Havok and Fatal are both on top of their games.

Specifically, I'm referring to

That said I don't think any other Snakes (not just looking at how they place but the players themselves) can be considered top level players atm

This is horribly wrong and you should feel bad for saying it. You're insulting a lot of legit snake mains.

 

[ぱみゅ]

9b loses to YI:B
And I am not sure how to weight ESAM's ICs results, as he uses Pikachu much more than them.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

This is horribly wrong and you should feel bad for saying it. You're insulting a lot of legit snake mains.

So players can say this about Diddys, but not Snakes?

 

[Shaya]

The Real Tier List

SSSAMAZING Tier: Meta Knight
A Single Character Main wins tournaments tier: Olimar, Marth, Zero Suit, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong (any order)
B****es and whores who generally use a secondary or aren't gud enuff tier: Falco, Snake, Pikachu, Wario, Lucario (any order)

 

[Dekillsage]

Olimar doesn't win tournaments. Neither does marth or zss or ics in the apex ruleset. Diddy doesn't win anything either.... it's all MK

so who givesssssss

 

[Seagull Joe]

Havok was definitely on the top of his 's game at Apex when he lost to Hinkage.

 

[infiniteV115]

@Quest
I didn't say there were no good Snakes outside of Ally, stop making things up. I said I don't consider them to be top level players. I consider MVD Fatal Bizkit Havok and Mike Ray (in no particular order) high-level players. Razer would be on that list too but he apparently quit. Razer was top level imo around the time of Apex 2012, maybe he still is idk, I haven't seen much from him since then outside of Apex 2013.
I don't even consider Nick Riddle a top level player and he outplaced all the solo Snakes at Apex using a worse character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Olimar doesn't win tournaments. Neither does marth or zss or ics in the apex ruleset. Diddy doesn't win anything either.... it's all MK

so who givesssssss

Olimar doesn't win tournaments. Neither does marth or zss or ics in the apex ruleset.

Neither does marth or zss

zss

Aaaand I'm officially done here.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Apex doesn't count because zss won and my preconceived notion says it shouldn't have happened

 

[Attila_]

This is horribly wrong and you should feel bad for saying it. You're insulting a lot of legit snake mains.

as insulting as it may be, it's still true.

no one is backing up ally at all.

 

[infiniteV115]

Saying someone is not a top player is an insult?
Damn, I either have to lie about like 99% of Brawl players or I have to insult them. This definition sucks.

No but seriously, you just had Snake as like #2 or #3 on your personal tier list right? Obviously you think he's reasonably viable as a solo main. So a top player playing this character should be capable of winning large tournies right? (Nationals/internationals)

Look me in the eye and tell me you think Fatal/Bizkit/Mikeray/Havok/MVD is capable of doing such a thing. I'll ****ing skype if I have to bro.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Ladies and gentlemen~!

I give you the "Everybody disagrees with Quest" thread.

 

[Dekillsage]

Aaaand I'm officially done here.

wins one tournament

zss now wins all the tournaments

 

[ぱみゅ]

To be fair, not even MK "won all".
He probably did on NJ/NY, but because M2K-Anti-Nairo-Zero.

Which other regions were that extremely dominated by him?
(Honest question, give me good arguments and I'll stand corrected)

 

[Espy Rose]

All of them.

 

[Dekillsage]

Other regions either have him banned or don't have any mk players.
I know Tyrant is really strong in his region, and FOW is also really strong in his state. Canada has holyknightmare, but I don't know their mk legal results.

 

[infiniteV115]

Canada's more than just 1 region you know
In the same way that the US is more than just 1 region
Our country is like 1.5x the size of your country after all
...Whoa what. According to wiki it's barely bigger. That's weird.

 

[Dekillsage]

which one is the mk legal one?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nova Scotia.
Oh the irony.

 

[Alacion]

They're all MK legal. ICs dominate west coast Canada though

 

[Psychoace]

In the end we're all North America.

 

[Attila_]

The Real Tier List

SSSAMAZING Tier: Meta Knight
A Single Character Main wins tournaments tier: Olimar, Marth, Zero Suit, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong (any order)
B****es and *****s who generally use a secondary or aren't gud enuff tier: Falco, Snake, Pikachu, Wario, Lucario (any order)

I disagree with the zss bandwagon. salem is amazing, and his win at apex was amazing, but i don't think one major win in isolation justifies a position jump to the level of other A rank characters.

I largely agree with everything else here, though.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm pretty sure he's joking about the jump to A Tier. All most of us want is a small rise to B Tier, which is barely a rise at all when you think about it.

Snake has no such matchup.

Assuming Pika +2's Snake (which he does going by results, and you're a 'results man', aren't you? ), then yes he does, in fact.

Whatever, Peach is barely mid tier. Peach is what happens when all of your eggs are in one basket. She's awesome at low-percent strings and pressure and bad at everything else.

She's already practically bottom of High Tier, though.

True nuff but i always have thought of peach's real powee coming from her useful maychups on 2 chatacters that not a lot of characters can deal with.

Who can't deal with Wario (assuming he's one of the two chars you're talking about going by your post right before this one)? Having a pocket Marth for both chars is easier AND more effective overall.

Peach is weak.

While this is mostly true, her usmash can kill pretty early. Stitchies and bombs, combined, are also a factor worth considering, since I've seen a ton of high-level matches decided by things as random as Gordos and misfires already.

oops I forgot you were 12

and yeah, in 2010, it was a lot more advantageous to play risky/approach (aerials). In 2013 everyone can powershield aerials and punish. Powershielding a zair or a projectile, on the other hand, is a lot harder to punish.

...you use ZSS LOL. obviously this is not true for the radically different MUs like Olimar/ZSS/peach where a little aggro is okay.


..anyone good? o.o

Stop trying to defend Vermanubis. He's obviously over-inflating his character

Lolz, Quest, it has become quite clear that you are speaking out of your *** right now. I don't see why PSing with ZSS would be any harder than PSing with Ganon. You're arguing with Verm just because you feel Ganon can't be 'decent' at anything, and it's showing in your logic.

Edit: Also, have you been paying attention to the topic at hand? Verm just made the largest post about why he feels Ganon is truly the worst character in this game after I gave a bunch of reasons why I feel he isn't. How could you possibly think that he is "overinflating his character"?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No but seriously, you just had Snake as like #2 or #3 on your personal tier list right? Obviously you think he's reasonably viable as a solo main. So a top player playing this character should be capable of winning large tournies right? (Nationals/internationals)

Look me in the eye and tell me you think Fatal/Bizkit/Mikeray/Havok/MVD is capable of doing such a thing. I'll ****ing skype if I have to bro.

Razer and Shu were capable when they played / practiced. Fatal at one point was placing top during the MLG season.

I really don't see why so much of Snake's success is solely credited to Ally - hardly any character had such diverse representation in top level play during Brawl's lifespan. Between 2009 and now there have been four different Snake players who were national threats. And Snake has still pretty good results in 2011 [top 4 material] when Ally didn't play Snake at all. MK, Olimar and Ice Climbers are the only characters who can arguably match this, especially wrt consistency.
You know what character gets truly carried by individual players? Marth. Take away Mikeneko and a good 2/3rd of Marth's achievements are gone. The rest is one good placing at a national [Ramin @7th] and some regional top5 placings by MH.

Assuming Pika +2's Snake (which he does going by results, and you're a 'results man', aren't you? ), then yes he does, in fact.

I don't see how the results clearly indicate that the matchup is +2 for Pikachu.

 

[Luco]

Sorry quest but I just see so many holes in your arguments....

lol.

no one really solo mains ganondorf anymore. This MU doesn't really matter but it's definitely not reasonably winnable for ganon.

Give evidence on your part (no actually, experience and evidence). 'Outdated' evidence (even though i'd argue otherwise) is better than none.

Fighting ganon is easier now for a lot of people because they would have had more ganon exp by now. same with a lot of other low tier MUs.

As someone said, it works both ways. Any MU that ever happens implies some kind of learning for both parties. That's why LTs don't always stay low (sonic) and those in better tiers don't always stay better (zelda).

are you kidding? In 2010 the TL metagame was "run up to your opponent and nair/bair"

you can't do that anymore, lol

Sorry dude but 'the past 365' days does not include 2010.

i think the improving matchups are just a result of "im not gonna waste effort arguing about +2 or +3 vs jigglypuff" . For the most part, the metagame has evolved to show low tiers are even worse than we thought.


lets discuss how the top 5 characters are 4 newcomers and 1 vet, and there are only 4 vets above mid tier. on the other end of the spectrum all of low tier is vets (lucas doesnt belong there) is there any hope that the character we love right now will be any good in smash 4? all the best frame data and broken movesets get thrown into the new characters.

I've noticed this as well and it's kinda sad: I hope smash 4 puts some worth in to older characters...

If you go even with DDD, you're not 2nd best. Simple fact.

... Why...? o.O

oops I forgot you were 12

and yeah, in 2010, it was a lot more advantageous to play risky/approach (aerials). In 2013 everyone can powershield aerials and punish. Powershielding a zair or a projectile, on the other hand, is a lot harder to punish.

Even in 2010 people could do stuff like that. Melee was good for doing that and 2 years is nothing to scoff at man. But again, that's not even a year ago.

...you use ZSS LOL. obviously this is not true for the radically different MUs like Olimar/ZSS/peach where a little aggro is okay.


..anyone good? o.o

Stop trying to defend Vermanubis. He's obviously over-inflating his character

... No, you're just deflating him. Verm said himself that ganon is the worst character in the game. That doesn't mean he's absolute trash, it means what it means. If he has things to back up his knowledge (and you've nothing to counter with, unless you explain a match you've seen or had that says otherwise...?) then there is literally nothing wrong with his argument and your thoughts on ganon as a silly character aren't valid in a discussion like this. I'm sorry.

stop being an illiterate airhead and actually read what I said. He was quite clearly the one who didn't give any reasonings. He even admitted that he was just drawing on "his experience." from like 2009. and his aib ladder matches. and his friendlies with jerm. these things are srs bsns. If you're going to argue based on "experience" then you better have a ton of it and be able to specify.

also rofl @ *da KID*, the most conceited braggart around, accusing me of inflating my ego. lolol

Umm, he said a year ago....

1. there is no such "consensus"
2. no one important has agreed with you in this thread. other than maybe DLA. Way to fail at appealing to popularity.

3. it's funny how you say this

Whether or not people agree with him, it's easy to see we respect him for making valid points with evidence to back it up.

when you've been openly condescending and just randomly called me "full of it." Hypocrite much?


okay, but you still haven't revealed your examples of the people you've played, or even when.


no, this is something you made up on the spot.


really? I don't recall saying that either.

Again, you're changing my argument to something else that I never said. Where did I say that it had to be a "high level" match, or that it had to be within the last 6 months... I specifically stated that as far back as a year would be fine. If you can't even bring up ONE DARNED GANON main who has played in tournament for a year, then there's no way you can be claiming this character is at all relevant and that his metagame has been advancing significantly more than TL's to the extent that he can somehow beat TL. while there were 200 toon link mains working on strategies to improve the character.

also you still haven't responded to any of my posts about why it's impossible for ganon to get in. You've just been ranting about your "experience" and trying to degrade me. can't say anymore until you answer those.

Look, whether or not we take in to account the whole 'does a year matter?' argument, it's plain clear to me that you're not constructing a very good argument, in fact barely one at all, which I think is a shame because this discussion is actually totally worth having. I actually really enjoy Tl and his capabilities and am pretty open to any rating but I need a more substantial argument than the one that's given.

But generally, I just think you have to get your facts straight and come up with proper evidence and points in your favour past 'lol, no ganon matches in the last year, it's a -3 because lol, hurr durr ganon's an awful character...', etc etc.

Sorry. I don't mean to be angry with you... but dude, you're literally refuting the best players of ganon with little to no evidence and then going on to insult them (because this:

this is ridiculous, why are we still discussing this horrible character

is actually a really mean thing to say to the top players of a character, wanting to have a discussion about their character) for... what, exactly?

So... yea, i'm kinda annoyed. :/

Again, sorry, i'm usually always trying to be nice, maybe i'm just not with it today...?

I swear I won't respond to you like this again, Quest. I'm not that mean. :C

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy being top tier is very good fanservice, given how look it took them to put him in the damn game.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Ganon thread?

Ganon thread.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Ganon goes even against Ganon.