Official BBR Tier List v7

[Vermanubis]

You say that as if Ganon has loads of gimmicks that could sway MUs in his favor, Quest. There have been, are and always will be only two ways to fight Ganon, completely independent of metagame: patiently or impatiently.

Like Joe just said, people've been saying "Ganon's easier to fight now" since the beginning. That's not because people keep learning new things about Ganon, rather, they figure out that playing conservatively is generally a much better idea against him.

 

[bubbaking]

Acting like TL can't use bombs just because Ganon *may* catch one or two with nair is a gross oversimplification. Keep in mind the TL can SHDL or bomb throw to force that reaction and punish.

Why can't Ganon also AD or Z-catch the bombs? AD catches, in particular, are quite easy and harder to punish than a nair, I think. Why did you assume that, when Verm said Ganon can catch bombs, he would be doing so with only nair?

no one really solo mains ganondorf anymore. This MU doesn't really matter but it's definitely not reasonably winnable for ganon.

It's not "reasonably winnable" for TL, either.

 

[DeLux]

You're being quoted because you initially responded to only me, lolz. You're also making the same dumb mistake that too many people on here have made by assuming that DDD's the only char I play (and assuming that I'm a low one at that ). Ganon's also one of the chars I watch the most matches of and am very interested in. Spend more than five minutes in this thread and that becomes clear. Heck, I essentially started this very conversation regarding Ganon now. If people here only talked about chars they mained, even to their best users, then there'd be no nearly no useful discussion in this thread ever.


If MK +4'd Ganon, then he wouldn't have won as much money as he did in a MK-legal environment, IMO. Btw, yes, you definitely have a knack for starting these sorts of arguments. You made a very similar derogatory comment when I was telling Overswarm how to edgeguard Diddy in P:M after he explicitly admitted that he didn't know how to edgeguard Diddy. I hope you aren't turning into another Strong Bad...


Stop messing up your smileys. You make me sick.....


How is fighting Ganon any different now from how it was back then?

To be fair, there isn't any useful discussion in this thread

 

[NH Cody]

and if you play conservatively, you definitely win

......lol

 

[Tesh]

Ganon has alot less of a chance against a character that is built to run from you. Toon Link is another character where he is going to struggle to get close enough to make those crucial reads.

 

[bubbaking]

Fighting ganon is easier now for a lot of people because they would have had more ganon exp by now. same with a lot of other low tier MUs.

How much more experience did you need, lolz? Ganon's a pretty simple character.

Besides, the same exact philosophy can be applied to low tiers' MUs against other chars, which is why we still have Low Tier chars with improving MUs in consecutive MU charts. More time has led to more experience for BOTH sides. It works both ways.

Like Joe just said, people've been saying "Ganon's easier to fight now" since the beginning. That's not because people keep learning new things about Ganon, rather, they figure out that playing conservatively is generally a much better idea against him.

The thing is TLs always have played "conservatively", so it's reasonable to assume that not much has changed, or even CAN change, in the TL vs Ganon metagame.

 

[NH Cody]

are you kidding? In 2010 the TL metagame was "run up to your opponent and nair/bair"

you can't do that anymore, lol

 

[Tesh]

How much more experience did you need, lolz? Ganon's a pretty simple character.

Besides, the same exact philosophy can be applied to low tiers' MUs against other chars, which is why we still have Low Tier chars with improving MUs in consecutive MU charts. More time has led to more experience for BOTH sides. It works both ways.


The thing is TLs always have played "conservatively", so it's reasonable to assume that not much has changed, or even CAN change, in the TL vs Ganon metagame.

i think the improving matchups are just a result of "im not gonna waste effort arguing about +2 or +3 vs jigglypuff" . For the most part, the metagame has evolved to show low tiers are even worse than we thought.


lets discuss how the top 5 characters are 4 newcomers and 1 vet, and there are only 4 vets above mid tier. on the other end of the spectrum all of low tier is vets (lucas doesnt belong there) is there any hope that the character we love right now will be any good in smash 4? all the best frame data and broken movesets get thrown into the new characters.

 

[bubbaking]

are you kidding? In 2010 the TL metagame was "run up to your opponent and nair/bair"

you can't do that anymore, lol

What the heck? What TLs were you playing with/watching? Even my friend and I knew better than that back in 2010, and we were complete scrubs. <__< My guess is that you are using the wrong players for your material. Verm wins.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Verm wins.

Verm won the moment the argument started.

Verm always wins.

 

[bubbaking]

lets discuss how the top 5 characters are 4 newcomers and 1 vet, and there are only 4 vets above mid tier. on the other end of the spectrum all of low tier is vets (lucas doesnt belong there) is there any hope that the character we love right now will be any good in smash 4? all the best frame data and broken movesets get thrown into the new characters.

Fox has been pretty darn good for three games in a row. Falco's been incredible for two games in a row.

#StaySalty

Edit: Marth and ICs have both been really good for two games in a row. Peach has been good for two games in a row. Falcon has been good for two games in a row, but neither of those games were Brawl. Pika has been great for two games, but not in a row.

 

[infiniteV115]

Even my friend and I knew better than that back in 2010, and we were complete scrubs. <__< My guess is that you are using the wrong players for your material. Verm wins.

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
'were'

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Fox has been pretty darn good for three games in a row. Falco's been incredible for two games in a row.

#StaySalty

Edit: Marth and ICs have both been really good for two games in a row. Peach has been good for two games in a row. Falcon has been good for two games in a row, but neither of those games were Brawl. Pika has been great for two games in a row.

You heard it here first folks, Pikachu is great in Melee

 

[bubbaking]

Ugh! I meant to say Pika has been great for two games, but NOT in a row.

 

[Pikabunz]

Is he implying that Pikachu wasn't good in 64??

Axe makes Pikachu look godly in Melee.

 

[bubbaking]

Um, that's the exact OPPOSITE of what I was implying.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yo guys I heard you all agreed snake is 2nd best character in brawl.

 

[bubbaking]

If you go even with DDD, you're not 2nd best. Simple fact.

 

[Karnu]

Is he implying that Pikachu wasn't good in 64??

Axe makes Pikachu look godly in Melee.

Axe is amazing with Pika

 

[Nido]

Yo guys I heard you all agreed snake is 2nd best character in brawl.

I heard people agreed Ness has a +4 on Marth

 

[Aaven]

I heard people agreed Ness has a +4 on Marth

Thinking anything otherwise is just ignorant and ridiculous.

 

[Dekillsage]

If you go even with DDD, you're not 2nd best. Simple fact.

+1 snake

 

[Attila_]

snake has 6 bad mus. anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves.

snake's placement in majors is more than enough proof. he's not viable as a solo main.

 

[Shaya]

So Marth and Zero Suit Samus are better than Snake?

Tight.
And Diddy Kong.
Tight.

And Olimar.
Tighter.

And Ice Climbers.
Tightest.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So Marth and Zero Suit Samus are better than Snake?

They're better in the sense that they have a more convenient match-up spread and have a significantly lower chance of running into a stupid match-up they can't pass, but it's hard to argue their character traits are anywhere near as good.

If we were the FGC, Snake would probably be much lower on the tier list but the Smash community likes to evaluate characters holistically rather than by how well they do or what their match-ups are like. That sounds like a slam, but it's really just another way of looking at the game. Snake's weight and tilts are arguably better than Marth or ZSS' entire kit, but he's also plagued by a few problems that are always going to make his life hard at top level where everyone has such solid execution, which is somewhat less true for Marth and ZSS (though still true). There's also the fact that when you're losing to Snake it can feel devastatingly hopeless, which can't really be said for Marth or ZSS. lol

 

[~ Gheb ~]

snake has 6 bad mus.

Loooooooooooooool

They're better in the sense that they have a more convenient match-up spread and have a significantly lower chance of running into a stupid match-up they can't pass

Snake has no such matchup.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peach has been good for two games in a row.

Whatever, Peach is barely mid tier. Peach is what happens when all of your eggs are in one basket. She's awesome at low-percent strings and pressure and bad at everything else.

Loooooooooooooool



Snake has no such matchup.

True, actually, but Pikachu and MK are tough at best.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't think Peach has any significant problems outside of lack of good killing moves and a crappy airdodge to keep her out of bottom of hightier. She is solid with her pressure and string and turnips especially can turn the tides immediately when you pick up a sword.

 

[GOofyGV]

yeah don't forget she falls really slow that coupled with that air dodge and you have a character that has amazing hard time landing.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I dont see why being solo unviable is so important honestly. Peach is a good character to have access to for certain matchups like ICs and wario. Snakes good for diddy or someones peach or whatever and you may not wanna fight marth or toonlink so maybe you have a D3 or mk or whatever. Doesnt make the character bad or useless. When who solo mains nowadays anyway? Most people have a second character at least for fun anyway.

 

[GOofyGV]

that's true but when you have to keep up 2 characters that takes much more work. It's obviously easier to stick to 1 character. Tierlists are based on how viable a character is on it's own. I mean you could say Ganon is mid tier because he can do some work if you have a sub like MK.
Your right though I honestly think that there are like 5 to 10 characters who can win tourneys on their own depending one the player.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy goes even with snake. Most Diddys agree now. Pretty much only characters up rob tier are solo viable

 

[SFA Smiley]

True nuff but i always have thought of peach's real powee coming from her useful maychups on 2 chatacters that not a lot of characters can deal with. I think in this metagame having a pocket peach is really useful because of the dominance of ICs. Her and TL but he's a little harder to pocket

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Every single move Peach has is designed to give her a good early % combo game. Very few are useful outside that. Against Peach if you're over 100% you can literally stand on the other side of the stage from her and pick your nose. Oh, she'll throw turnips and jab you a lot and I guess that can be a little annoying. And maybe eventually she'll get in, read your roll and fair you, killing you at like 170%. Maybe.

I know not many of you are gonna agree here but I think Peach is much, much worse than she appears to be. You see her doing all of this fancy stuff, pressuring shields and doing a ton of damage, getting the guy to 70% fast and you think "whoa, that character has a lot going for her" but to be honest, Peach's combo and pressure game are akin to Ganon's raw power, Falcon's speed, and Jigglypuff's camping game. Yeah, they're all good at stuff, but that doesn't mean they're any good and Peach is really in the same boat.

I used to think that Peach was super underrated and that she should be at least C tier. I mean, she has no fatal flaws unlike the rest of the characters she's always lumped with, right? Except she does, and that is that she is completely and utterly non-threatening at high percents. You know how there are characters where your lead means nothing (Snake, Lucario, DK, Ike, etc)? Peach is like that in reverse, her leads never mean ****. Just camp her.

Peach should only beat anyone that isn't Wario or low tier if they are a better player.

 

[-LzR-]

Camping Peach is asking for her pluck stiches though.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snakes only bad match ups are Mk-2 falco-1 pikachu-1
olimar is even/ in the 45-55 range
diddy kong is +1.It's not an even match up.
Marth isn't a bad match up either. It's in the 50-50 range as well
+1 Ics

then snake makes the majority of the rest of the cast unviable. You can play him solo... you just have to be the best. Snakes would rather complain though, its fine.

 

[NH Cody]

What the heck? What TLs were you playing with/watching? Even my friend and I knew better than that back in 2010, and we were complete scrubs. <__< My guess is that you are using the wrong players for your material. Verm wins.

oops I forgot you were 12

and yeah, in 2010, it was a lot more advantageous to play risky/approach (aerials). In 2013 everyone can powershield aerials and punish. Powershielding a zair or a projectile, on the other hand, is a lot harder to punish.

 

[infiniteV115]

o.o
When I played MJG, zair and projectiles were like the ONLY things I was PS-->punishing XD
Who the **** powershields bairs/fairs/nairs/uairs? Dairs yeah sure, but not the other 4.

Seriously Quest wtf are you talking about.

 

[Aaven]

Snakes only bad match ups are Mk-2 falco-1 pikachu-1
olimar is even/ in the 45-55 range
diddy kong is +1.It's not an even match up.
Marth isn't a bad match up either. It's in the 50-50 range as well
+1 Ics

then snake makes the majority of the rest of the cast unviable. You can play him solo... you just have to be the best. Snakes would rather complain though, its fine.

Snake is definitely a highly viable Solo character, it's just so hard to develop him at points that it's much easier to just pick up a secondary or two or even MK.

It seems majority of the Smash community goes to extremes; you either main a solid, viable Snake or you just don't use him at all. Much better secondary options to choose from that require less upkeep so to speak, unless you're a simple Snake and just abuse grenade gimmicks and tilts.

 

[NH Cody]

o.o
When I played MJG, zair and projectiles were like the ONLY things I was PS-->punishing XD

...you use ZSS LOL. obviously this is not true for the radically different MUs like Olimar/ZSS/peach where a little aggro is okay.

the **** powershields bairs/fairs/nairs/uairs?

..anyone good? o.o

Stop trying to defend Vermanubis. He's obviously over-inflating his character