Official BBR Tier List v7

[NH Cody]

blackgold is probably right.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

blackgold is probably right.

Who the **** is "blackgold"?

 

[bubbaking]

Popping in to disagree, IMO Ganon:MK is the worst MU in the game. As long as the MK A. is willing to spam tornado, B. knows how to shuttle loop onstage/OoS properly, C. doesn't air dodge to the ground, and D. knows how to edgeguard properly with shuttle loop... Ganon simply won't win. Closest thing to a 100:0 MU in the game.

• A. Shield tornado and DA/downB/aerial it OoS, or you can PS > shieldgrab it.
• B. Grab/sideB him.
• C. Force MK to AD and punish it with the frame-trap that YOU mentioned on here a long time ago (FH Uair > FF > fsmash).
• D. Don't end up offstage.

Just my thoughts on what you said, although some of them obviously might not be that good. The closest thing to a 100-0 in this game is probably DDD:Bowser or ICs:Ganon. The ICs pretty much demolish the MU with only one move. Perhaps you are underrating your own char. I remember a while ago, you were also claiming that DDD:Ganon is +4 for DDD.

Hard countered may be a definite term but 'hideously bad' is not. Dude, you're trying to take a term and fit it in to the current system, which doesn't really work because those terms aren't quite solid themselves (The definition might be but the way people use it is not and you can't play high moral ground here because we ALL do it, we ALL use terms in our own ways). If I say 'hideously bad' is -4, it means I have my perception of what 'hideously bad' is, and even then there are different ways to say the same thing. For all you know, 'hideously bad' might be referring to a near impossible MU.

Stop right there. If you can't reasonably win a set at all in a -3, then how is that NOT "hideously bad"? For all intents and purposes, a -3 IS "near impossible". A -4 is simply impossible. Why do you think I keep saying that we have too many +4's? All those "hideously bad" MUs that are currently listed as -4 (Jiggs:G&W, DK:DDD, Link:Falco, etc.) are actually -3. They're still extremely bad, nearly impossible even, but not flat-out impossible at a practical level. I guess I have to ask you: What is your definition of "hideous"?

And then, even the 'definite' ratings can have different interpretations based on our experiences. I mean, Marth is a -3 and I consider him bad but if I go Ganon against MK it's going to be... you guessed it... hideously bad for me. All i'm saying here is, our thoughts on ratings are wishy-washier than you think, dude...

No, these "definite ratings" should have "definite interpretations". We simply are not allowed to have 'our own ways' of seeing them. There's a standard. We can't have a discussion on MUs if we aren't following that standard, which was set by its own discussion (I hope). Now, you may not AGREE with the MU values for a certain MU, which is what you're really referring to, but each of these MU values has solid fundamental interpretations. The only parts of these interpretations that may be somewhat unclear is the grey area near the borders of each value.

I guess this probably isn't helped by the fact that I play -2 MUs and go 'eh'.

In other words, you play bad MUs (when seen in the WHOLE scope of MUs in this game) and see them as not that bad. I can understand that. Boss does the same thing when referring to Luigi's MU against DDD.

DLA/Verm might be as good with ganon as M2K/Nairo/Zero/etc are with MK...

I would say they they're pretty close. They're the exceptions to SFP's little 'rule of thumb' about low tier mains.

I know that when I see people complaining about "terrible" MUs in Melee like Marth vs Sheik or Peach vs Puff and saying they're "nearly unwinnable", I'm over here playing Ganon against Falcos and Sheiks and Mewtwo against Marths and Falcons like "meh, that's not so bad, you have it a lot easier than I do."

Lolz! As a Melee Samus main and a Kirby LT main, I can feel your pain. People complain about spacees 'bodying' Falcon and Peach being pretty impossible for almost all the chars who are better than her (), and I'm like, " Samus:Sheik is 3:7, dude. Kirby:Fox is, at best, 2:8. Why you dudes complaining? " Then some fool comes up to me and says that Samus:Marth is even. Not even joking.

 

[NH Cody]

Who the **** is "blackgold"?

some random noob, wouldn't expect you to know who he is

 

[infiniteV115]

• A. Shield tornado and DA/downB/aerial it OoS, or you can PS > shieldgrab it.

Nado hits every 4-6 frames depending on how the MK player is pressing the B button (at least this is what I heard Yikarur say)
Ganon's grab is frame 8 (iirc)
Therefore, no u rong

 

[bubbaking]

Um, wouldn't that just let you grab-armor the 'nado?

Edit: What's the leniency to grab-armor something? Do the hitbox and the grabbox actually have to be overlapping at the same exact frame? Going by how often I've seen grab-armored moves (being a DDD main), this just seems unlikely...

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think Low tier mains will have different opinions on how difficult MUs are, because for them, they probably consider -2 MUs among their better MUs. Luco showed this mentality well when he said:

For low tier players, this mentality is necessary, and when they don't have this mentality they end up switching to higher tiered characters so they don't have to "deal" with bad MUs.

I know that when I see people complaining about "terrible" MUs in Melee like Marth vs Sheik or Peach vs Puff and saying they're "nearly unwinnable", I'm over here playing Ganon against Falcos and Sheiks and Mewtwo against Marths and Falcons like "meh, that's not so bad, you have it a lot easier than I do."

I feel like there's something else I wanted to say in this post but I can't remember it...

I don't think vs in melee is even a bad matchup o_O. Maybe a -1 for ?

Um, wouldn't that just let you grab-armor the 'nado?

Edit: What's the leniency to grab-armor something? Do the hitbox and the grabbox actually have to be overlapping at the same exact frame? Going by how often I've seen grab-armored moves (being a DDD main), this just seems unlikely...

Are you actually suggesting someone grabbing nado? Nado would only be grabbed if it was a ground nado (Not that can even feasibly do this). Most people nado at a character's head over the top of the shield.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I agree -1 makes sense, though the consensus is 65-35 or something

It's also Marth's worst MU in Melee.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Is it really? I don't play Melee competitively so I honestly do not know. I'll go check the boards.

35-65 is more a -2 matchup...

Edit: I checked the boards and the matchup thread I found was from 2011 so it might be outdated, but it said 's worst matchup is indeed , but only 40-60 (His only losing matchup there, though he probably loses to -1 as well from what I've seen). 40-60 isn't bad at all.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

40-60 isn't bad at all.

And yet, from the way people* complain about it you'd think it was as hard as Wolf vs Dedede

*not all people, just some

 

[bubbaking]

There's NO way Marth:Sheik is 35:65, lolz! That's just someone complaining too much. The MU ranges from even at best to 40:60 at worst. It's one of those 'Pika:MK' MUs where it could be considered even until you realize that the Marth is working harder.

Edit: 35:65 is bordering on -2 bad, if it isn't actually -2. That's, like, Samus:Marth and maybe Peach:Marth/Falcon.

 

[Dekillsage]

I hate calling match ups -1's and 2's. Can't we go back to the 65-35s and 6-4s?

 

[NH Cody]

yeah screw that new stuff.

 

[bubbaking]

In all honesty, there probably aren't any Melee Top/High Tier MUs with 35:65 ratios, with the definite exception of ICs: Peach/Ganon and the possible exceptions of Peach:Marth/Falcon and Falcon:Spacee.

 

[Seagull Joe]

And yet, from the way people* complain about it you'd think it was as hard as Wolf vs Dedede

*not all people, just some

Lol...That matchup is like 20-80 to 15-85. I used to play this matchup ALOT for practice in case it happened in tournament. I haven't been able to practice it in awhile though because Coney quit. When we played I won about 1/5 of the time. That matchup is ass.

 

[bubbaking]

Are you actually suggesting someone grabbing nado? Nado would only be grabbed if it was a ground nado (Not that can even feasibly do this). Most people nado at a character's head over the top of the shield.

Well, then grab won't work, but that means Ganon should aerial 'nados OoS.

I agree -1 makes sense, though the consensus is 65-35 or something

It's also Marth's worst MU in Melee.

Sheik is Marth's worst MU only because ALL of Marth's other MUs are even or advantaged MUs. Sheik actually has quite a few more 'bad' MUs than Marth does, funnily enough. There is no "consensus" on 65:35 for Sheik:Marth, though.

I checked the boards and the matchup thread I found was from 2011 so it might be outdated, but it said 's worst matchup is indeed , but only 40-60 (His only losing matchup there, though he probably loses to -1 as well from what I've seen). 40-60 isn't bad at all.

Marth definitely goes even with BOTH spacees. That set of MUs is heavily stage-dependent. Spacees should be banning FD every time because of the 0-to-death CG > juggle > KO. What's left are a bunch of stages that facilitate crazy TCs for Marth (which lead into juggles and/or kills) with low platforms. All the non-FD stages are honestly great for both sides of the MU, actually.

 

[infiniteV115]

Grab armor is basically a trade. ie you hit each other on the same frame.
But since it's a grab, it's that you get hit on the same frame that your grabbox connects with their hurtbox.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Marth definitely goes even with BOTH spacees. That set of MUs is heavily stage-dependent. Spacees should be banning FD every time because of the 0-to-death CG > juggle > KO. What's left are a bunch of stages that facilitate crazy TCs for Marth (which lead into juggles and/or kills) with low platforms. All the non-FD stages are honestly great for both sides of the MU, actually.

Stop talking about things you don't know enough about in a place where it doesn't belong in the first place

Let's start talking about Brawl again.

*tries to think of something that will get us back on topic*

Pit > Peach > Fox imo

 

[bubbaking]

Uh, I know more about and have entered way more tourneys for Melee than I do and have for Brawl. You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about, saying things like there's a "consensus" that Marth:Sheik is 35:65.

I'll talk about what I please.

This set from 7:00 to the end is a very good portrayal of how even Marth:Falco really is.

In Brawl, Peach is not better than Fox because Fox doesn't get wrecked by MK like Peach does. Fox:MK is actually a fairly good MU for Fox.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Can someone thread ban Bubbaking, Luco, and Shiny Mewtwo? Grim hasn't posted in awhile so I guess someone took care of that guy.

 

[DLA]

• A. Shield tornado and DA/downB/aerial it OoS, or you can PS > shieldgrab it.
• B. Grab/sideB him.
• C. Force MK to AD and punish it with the frame-trap that YOU mentioned on here a long time ago (FH Uair > FF > fsmash).
• D. Don't end up offstage.

Just my thoughts on what you said, although some of them obviously might not be that good. The closest thing to a 100-0 in this game is probably DDD:Bowser or ICs:Ganon. The ICs pretty much demolish the MU with only one move. Perhaps you are underrating your own char. I remember a while ago, you were also claiming that DDD:Ganon is +4 for DDD.

A. Even if any of those moves came out fast enough to punish tornado OoS (which they don't), all 3 of them are outright beaten by tornado anyways so it would be pointless. And Ganon's grab range is too small to PS->shield grab it.
B. MK's up B OoS is completely safe on Ganon's shield, he cannot grab/side B him or otherwise punish him at all from it.
C. It's impossible for Ganon to force MK to air dodge. His moves are too slow. MK can just double jump->dair and stay safe from whatever Ganon tries to do to him, then MK can just land with tornado or dimensional cape or glide attack or like, half of his moveset. It's really stupid. That frame trap Ganon has only works on characters that need to air dodge to the ground; MK certainly is not one of those characters.
D. Welp :I

If anything, I usually overrate Ganon, not underrate him. I do think ICs is Ganon's second worst MU, very close to MK but not quite as impossible. It's a bit more feasible for Ganon to get lucky and kill Nana 3 times (which is something he's definitely not bad at). But it's still a horrendous MU. And I still do think DDD:Ganon is -4, but it's pretty much borderline. Verm and a few other Ganons think it's -3.

 

[Tesh]

Pretty sure there is plenty of time to punish MK for Up B OoS, but why would anyone do that if it wasn't going to hit you? I mean everyone can punish grounded up B on shield, but no good MK would do that unless he was going for a read/guess/wanted to get hit.

 

[bubbaking]

A. Even if any of those moves came out fast enough to punish tornado OoS (which they don't), all 3 of them are outright beaten by tornado anyways so it would be pointless.

You misunderstood my statement. Don't try to outright challenge the tornado. Nobody wins that war. Punish its lag with an aerial, DA, or downB OoS. I'm almost absolutely certain that Ganon has moves fast enough to punish a shielded 'nado's lag, since even DDD can drop his shield, dash somewhere, and hit MK for trying that.

B. MK's up B OoS is completely safe on Ganon's shield, he cannot grab/side B him or otherwise punish him at all from it.

Like Tesh, I have a hard time believing MK's SL is safe on ANYONE'S shield. Also, grounded SL invincibility isn't frame 1. If you go for a grab or sideB on his shield before the SL, I don't think he would be able to SL out.

C. It's impossible for Ganon to force MK to air dodge. His moves are too slow. MK can just double jump->dair and stay safe from whatever Ganon tries to do to him, then MK can just land with tornado or dimensional cape or glide attack or like, half of his moveset. It's really stupid. That frame trap Ganon has only works on characters that need to air dodge to the ground; MK certainly is not one of those characters.

I'm not questioning the validity of MK's dair camping but just trying to land with 'nado can get MK punished. I believe the same goes for a DC that ends too far above the ground.

 

[DLA]

I'm pretty much positive Ganon (as well as a good portion of the rest of the cast) can't punish MK's grounded shuttle loop OoS if the MK knows how to cancel it properly. And if the MK knows how to space tornado properly (as in, pressuring the shield, then finishing the move far enough away that he can't get punished), then there's nothing Ganon can do about it.

edit: never mind

 

[Tesh]

Punishing tornado is a different story bubba. DDD can reach MK faster, has a much better spotdodge to avoid wasting frames on shield drop at the end of nado and his grab will just beat alot of MKs options once he is close enough so if he is a little bit late, he will probably still get his punish.

Ganon doesn't have enough time to run across the stage and jump to whatever platform MK autocancelled on and throw out a slow aerial. If you got nadoed at like the center of battlefield you can probably punish anything except a ledge retreat, but if the MK pressured you to one side the used nado, I don't think you can cover all the ground he has to escape on any stage (maybe frigate 1).

 

[Dekillsage]

lol ganon punishing mk nado on anything

 

[Luco]

Can someone thread ban Bubbaking, Luco, and Shiny Mewtwo? Grim hasn't posted in awhile so I guess someone took care of that guy.

It'd be nice not to be bashed for asking a genuine question. :/

 

[#HBC | Joker]

*pokes head into thread

sees bubba telling DLA how to play ganon better so he can win the MK mu

leaves*

 

[Shaya]

In theory, and I mean, in theory, people in (and the purpose of) this thread are to have intelligent discussion or discourse about the game/character viability.
That theory implies that people discussing things are knowledgeable or in some other way productive to the thread.
Conjecture, non-discussion inducing questions (as in ones which have a definitive answer and can be easily found/researched yourself), spam, etc; are in my eyes inappropriate as they are counterproductive.

Now to be honest, no one has the motivation to moderate this that hard to maintain a standard (which may well be "over the top" in the eyes of SWF, so take this as a grain of salt) which usually (as in the past) just results in a mass slippery slope infraction scheme as everyone (ignited by the original issuer) complain about their "rights" in posting whatever crap they want. The standard is set by the active users themselves, and in extreme cases are then "reset" or enforced differently by moderators. Threads larger in size/activity generally devolve into social aspects which reduces the standard without heavy intervention.

 

[bubbaking]

*pokes head into thread

sees bubba telling DLA how to play ganon better so he can win the MK mu

leaves*

Now what in the world made you think that?

Going over what could possibly be done in a MU =/= telling DLA how to play Ganon better.

Also, you assume that the best players are perfect with their character, which is a really bad assumption. Coney, for instance, admitted that he lacks much technical skill, and I've seen this. He can B-reverse Inhales (which is easy).....and that's it. One could still tell him ways to improve with DDD, despite him probably being the best DDD of his time. Why do you think these players still ask for help sometimes in their char's video critique threads? Get your elitist crap outta here!

 

[Attila_]

An example of how lower placings do not matter at Apex: Ishieymoro lost R1 of winners. In losers he beat FAE and then Croi. He beat good players, but not amazing players. He got 49th. Kain got 65th beating Ishieymoro R1, but losing to Salem R2 and then Attila (?) in losers. Kain certainly had to play better players and as a result when he lost, his placing was lower then Ish.

I didn't play Kain in bracket, but we played plenty of friendlies. He's definitely better than Ish, despite the placing difference. Placings don't really carry any weight until you're talking about the top of the bracket, where all players have already knocked out other really good players.

And yes, both myself and Attila the Hun have 2T's and 1L. Although he's a fraud

 

[Luco]

In theory, and I mean, in theory, people in (and the purpose of) this thread are to have intelligent discussion or discourse about the game/character viability.
That theory implies that people discussing things are knowledgeable or in some other way productive to the thread.
Conjecture, non-discussion inducing questions (as in ones which have a definitive answer and can be easily found/researched yourself), spam, etc; are in my eyes inappropriate as they are counterproductive.

Now to be honest, no one has the motivation to moderate this that hard to maintain a standard (which may well be "over the top" in the eyes of SWF, so take this as a grain of salt) which usually (as in the past) just results in a mass slippery slope infraction scheme as everyone (ignited by the original issuer) complain about their "rights" in posting whatever crap they want. The standard is set by the active users themselves, and in extreme cases are then "reset" or enforced differently by moderators. Threads larger in size/activity generally devolve into social aspects which reduces the standard without heavy intervention.

The one thing i'll say in my defense and it is the only thing, which is that the question I asked isn't necessarily something (to my knowledge) that has such an easy/research able/definitive answer. I could look it up but i'd have no idea where to look and it does produce discussion.

Thus I guess I must just be mis-understanding something?

I take your point, though. I'm sorry, even if it is just 'in theory'.

@Attila: Funny, I remember seeing that in the apex bracket and scratching my head.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Now what in the world made you think that?

Going over what could possibly be done in a MU =/= telling DLA how to play Ganon better.

Also, you assume that the best players are perfect with their character, which is a really bad assumption. Coney, for instance, admitted that he lacks much technical skill, and I've seen this. He can B-reverse Inhales (which is easy).....and that's it. One could still tell him ways to improve with DDD, despite him probably being the best DDD of his time. Why do you think these players still ask for help sometimes in their char's video critique threads? Get your elitist crap outta here!

explaining technical stuff to coney =/= explaining basic character options to DLA

you told DLA to punish MK's landing after nado, like he never tried it in his whole life. You also told him to shieldgrab it, like wut?

DLA is also not posting in a video critique thread asking for help here. Also, what top players are posting in video critique threads asking for help?! He told you "Ganon can't do anything about MK if he does these things." and you basically told him he was wrong. He's assuming top level play, and you're obviously not.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Uh, I know more about and have entered way more tourneys for Melee than I do and have for Brawl. You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about, saying things like there's a "consensus" that Marth:Sheik is 35:65.

I said 65-35 "or something" indicating that I wasn't sure of the exact numbers but that they were somewhere around there, because I've seen that number thrown around a lot. Seagull looked it up and saw that it was listed as 60-40, so I was close.

And by "stuff you don't know enough about" I was referring specifically to Melee Marth. I secondary Marth in Melee, I know his MUs, and he definitely does not go even with Spacies lol (I believe M2K said Marth wins on FD by a large amount, barely wins on YS, goes even on BF and FoD, loses badly on Dreamland, and loses on PS, not sure if that was exactly it)

To everyone else, I'm sorry for continuing this off-topic discussion, but I just had to clear things up. I'll try not to respond to these types of discussions in the future.

Can someone thread ban Bubbaking, Luco, and Shiny Mewtwo? Grim hasn't posted in awhile so I guess someone took care of that guy.

Great. The on time I try to actually participate in the discussion I get hated on. I think I'm just going to go back to what I used to do.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ganon indeed has no valid options against MKs Tornado. But he also has no options against Falco, Ice Climbers, Pikachu and Olimar if you ask me. Those matchups are all -4 for Ganondorf.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Can hit ? I'm quite serious in this question lol. 's biggest challenges are short characters and chain grabs that auto kill him.

It'd be nice not to be bashed for asking a genuine question. :/

Success.

 

[Karnu]

I think Ganon hitting squirt would be just as hard as hitting MK due to them being almost the same size and having fast attacks. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

But I sure Ganon can spike squirt much easier when off stage.

 

[Vermanubis]

Pika's actually not quite that bad. He's hard, but NAir walls keep him out of the air.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pika's actually not quite that bad. He's hard, but NAir walls keep him out of the air.

That may be true but I don't think it changes the matchup substantially enough to make it winnable. What I did forget though, is that DDD is a -4 matchup too in my opinion.

I think winnable matchups for Ganondorf are Diddy Kong, Lucario, Mr. G&W, ROB, Kirby, Sonic, Yoshi, PT and Jigglypuff at -2; Peach, DK, Ike, Ness, Mario, Bowser, Link and Zelda at -1 and Luigi and C. Falcon at 0.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Can hit ? I'm quite serious in this question lol. 's biggest challenges are short characters and chain grabs that auto kill him.

Success.

??? Why wouldn't he be able to? You must be used to auto lag canceling all your aerial moves