Official BBR Tier List v7

[Supermodel From Paris]

I would imagine Ganon would get walled out super hard by Lucario, though?

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't think it'd behoove me to give numbers at the moment, since that's historically been of little yield, but from an experiential standpoint, I find Pika borderline winnable. Theoretically, I'd be more inclined to agree, but in a practical context, I've never had the same trouble with Pika that I've had with Marth or D3 (which is DLA is right in saying I think's a -3--I've never once felt "shut down" by D3, so much as merely trepidatious)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nobody likes numbers >_<

They only make things confusing.

 

[DLA]

Against Squirtle, Ganon basically has to attempt trades in the air the whole match. Squirtle doesn't really threaten him from the ground that much, but he kind of dominates Ganon in the air so Ganon basically has to guess where he'll be and throw out an aerial in that direction and hope it hits/trades. Which it does, sometimes. Hard -2 IMO. On the bright side, Ganon is even with Ivy and slightly beats Charizard, in my opinion at least.

Verm, I disagree with you about Pika. I think it's among Ganon's hardest MU's, though not quite -4. Maybe it's because I secondary Pika so I may know a bit more about what Pika can do to Ganon. The MU would actually be pretty similar to the Squirtle MU (as in, Pika's too small and consistently airborne to challenge on the ground, so you have to try to trade in the air), except for Pika's 90%ish chain grab on Ganon, which can lead to a Thunder KO or a gimp, depending on the followup. Pika can kill Ganon more easily than Squirtle too, because all he has to do is Uair Ganon then punish his landing with an Nair or Usmash or something. Really, I don't know why people don't try to punish Ganon's landings more. It would spare you people a lot of humiliating losses at our hands.

And I find Lucario to be one of our more manageable MUs. Ganon challenges Lucario in the air quite nicely, and punishes his landings pretty well too. He's also good at gimping Lucario, though the same could be said in reverse as well. Lucario's small disjoints can be frustrating though, and his aura can be a challenge for Ganon because even though he kills early, it's hard for him to kill Lucario safely. Borderline -2/-1 IMO, though prolly a bit closer to -2.

 

[Seagull Joe]

??? Why wouldn't he be able to? You must be used to auto lag canceling all your aerial moves

Because 's super short and mobile.

 

[infiniteV115]

MK's short and mobile but you don't see him giving Ganon any trouble

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm reasonably sure that down-b kick goes over squirtle when he's standing. <_<

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lol^

 

[Karnu]

And I find Lucario to be one of our more manageable MUs. Ganon challenges Lucario in the air quite nicely, and punishes his landings pretty well too. He's also good at gimping Lucario, though the same could be said in reverse as well. Lucario's small disjoints can be frustrating though, and his aura can be a challenge for Ganon because even though he kills early, it's hard for him to kill Lucario safely. Borderline -2/-1 IMO, though prolly a bit closer to -2.

I don't want to sound like I'm disagreeing with you but I feel as a Lucario main Ganon fights us better on ground and is terrible fighting us in the air, I have never had an issue with Ganon in the air.

The only problems with Ganon I face is punishing your landings (As you mentioned), faster kills due to being light and floaty and Ganon getting a good read on your recover and spiking you for it.

-3 imo

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh ****, I can enlarge my avatar
Brb with flaoc derpage in full force

Edit: There we go.

 

[Vermanubis]

Against Squirtle, Ganon basically has to attempt trades in the air the whole match. Squirtle doesn't really threaten him from the ground that much, but he kind of dominates Ganon in the air so Ganon basically has to guess where he'll be and throw out an aerial in that direction and hope it hits/trades. Which it does, sometimes. Hard -2 IMO. On the bright side, Ganon is even with Ivy and slightly beats Charizard, in my opinion at least.

Verm, I disagree with you about Pika. I think it's among Ganon's hardest MU's, though not quite -4. Maybe it's because I secondary Pika so I may know a bit more about what Pika can do to Ganon. The MU would actually be pretty similar to the Squirtle MU (as in, Pika's too small and consistently airborne to challenge on the ground, so you have to try to trade in the air), except for Pika's 90%ish chain grab on Ganon, which can lead to a Thunder KO or a gimp, depending on the followup. Pika can kill Ganon more easily than Squirtle too, because all he has to do is Uair Ganon then punish his landing with an Nair or Usmash or something. Really, I don't know why people don't try to punish Ganon's landings more. It would spare you people a lot of humiliating losses at our hands.

And I find Lucario to be one of our more manageable MUs. Ganon challenges Lucario in the air quite nicely, and punishes his landings pretty well too. He's also good at gimping Lucario, though the same could be said in reverse as well. Lucario's small disjoints can be frustrating though, and his aura can be a challenge for Ganon because even though he kills early, it's hard for him to kill Lucario safely. Borderline -2/-1 IMO, though prolly a bit closer to -2.

Like I said to Gheb, in theory, it could be justified as one of his worst, but I've never had so much trouble with a Pika that I'd classify him in the upper bounds of -3. I think I've played K Prime and Anther out of the good Pikas, and while it's certainly not my favorite MU, my experience is at odds with the theory behind it.

 

[NH Cody]

Ganon - Toon Link is -3, am I right

 

[Vermanubis]

I'd say he's a -2. Pika I'm less confident in making ratios for, since I've only faced two of the top ones (which granted is still enough for a reasonably valid assessment), but I've fought Jash, Jerm, all of the AiB ladder TLs ever and a few others, mostly with a positive record. So I wouldn't be comfortable saying it's -3 for Ganon. I envision -3 as someone like Yoshi, against which we pay tremendously for a single mistake, and said mistake is very easy to make. TL's annoying as ****, but he's not a character I'd sweat over in bracket.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Neat, my avatar got bigger. I hope they allow gifs to work in our profile picture next.

 

[NH Cody]

You haven't faced me.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You haven't faced me.

You're a top 5 , better then even your idol MJG.

Best vs red on Tuesdays as well.

 

[NH Cody]

I wonder how seagull has 9007 posts

 

[ぱみゅ]

Neat, my avatar got bigger. I hope they allow gifs to work in our profile picture next.

Mine is a gif, but only moves when you visit my profile (also works on the popout after clicking on it).

 

[NH Cody]

TL destroys Ganon though. I cannot see how that MU is winnable enough to be only a -2

 

[Vermanubis]

Well, as I've been saying, theory can be pretty inaccurate. I'm not exaggerating, but noting only as a point of fact, that I've won against the TLs I've played 8:2, i.e. out of every 10 TLs matches I've played against a mix set of TLs, I've won 80%. Maybe it's just my personal competence in the MU, but again, I think the theory is much more limiting than reality. Of course that isn't to say that Ganon <wins> the MU, but if Ganon's capable of winning against TL in such a way (against good TLs, mind you) then it can't be quite that bad.

There always exists some kind of behavior in a match that's difficult to interpolate into an exact comparison, which is why I'm usually unwilling to concretely state that a character is -3 or -4 unless they have something that reliably handicaps, like Yoshi's CG, MK's frametraps, ICs' CGs, etc.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I wonder how seagull has 9007 posts

I didn't even realize I reached over 9000. Cool.

 

[NH Cody]

were those matches of yours by any chance
wifi?
friendlies?
against TLs that were "good" in 2009?

what exactly are the criteria for using personal matchup examples? because if you are still talking about aib ladder like you were before, I am 99999-0 with Bloody and like 3-0 with Breezy on ladder. lol. DLA used MK/Falco on me. The only Ganon I played offline was Gunblade in an MM (I threestocked)

 

[Seagull Joe]

LOL Bloody. My records similar with him offline XD.

 

[Vermanubis]

I was never talking exclusively about WiFi. I just added that I've fought a bunch of WiFi TLs in addition. As far as criteria, any match where I feel like the other player is playing the MU the way it's meant to be played. When I played Jerm, for example, it wasn't a tourney match, but we worked the clock down to the lower bounds of 2 minutes, so I'm fairly positive I can assume he wasn't sandbagging. Selecting MU samples is a bit different from determining wins.

The point stands though. Throughout my 3 years in play, I've fought TLs in all mediums. TL is not a -3. His primary advantage over Ganon is his ability to spam him to death. But projectile walls alone don't qualify as a horrible matchup--just one that requires due patience.

 

[NH Cody]

okay well you're trying to make an ethos appeal ("this matchup is -2 because I say it is and I have authority/experience") and you're not specifying where your experience comes from. Friendlies with Jerm a year ago or beyond that don't really hold any water when it's 2013 and people know matchups. Sure, in the past no one knew how to fight Ganon and it may have seemed easier for you. It's not the same anymore.

and as for the "handicap" you were talking about that's necessary for a -3 or -4, projectiles + zair alone are more than enough of a handicap, never mind aerials. The toon link doesn't even have to go out of his way to make reads. He can do a basic camp routine for the whole match. Ganon has that much trouble getting in.

 

[Vermanubis]

Appealing to ethos is only meaningfully fallacious in discussions where experience isn't material. In this discussion, it is. Also, ethos applies primarily to the emotional manipulation of one's audience by appeal to ideology, so it wasn't really such a thing.

As for TLs not knowing MUs, that's rather escapist if you ask me. The passage of time doesn't invalidate a player, unless of course it was a long, long time ago--long enough ago that the TL metagame could've largely evolved, which to my knowledge, it hasn't. Were one to grasp at straws, they could say that any sample that wasn't fresh from market under prescribed conditions is a nonviable MU sample. I think it'd be slightly ham-fisted to say that Jash and Jerm are incompetent or nonviable MU samples.

Theory never gets anyone anywhere, and so I present my case that I feel that I've played TLs who abused their most invaluable asset against me, and they still either lost, or won by a margin that was nowhere near a justification for a -3 label. And ZAir is not a handicap in the same way Yoshi's CG is. TL's zair is an annoying poke; not a life-threatening grab that can be set-up from just about any position. Ganon's NAir alone can beat TL's arrows, and with bomb-catching, that leaves TL with boomerangs to keep Ganon out, with the exception of ZAir on the ground.

 

[DLA]

Ganon vs. TL is a manageable -2 IMO. Wholeheartedly agree with Verm on this one. Also lol at trying to accuse Verm of using a fallacious argument. I knew Quest was about to get steamrolled when he used the words "ethos appeal".

 

[NH Cody]

uhhh, yeah, the TL metagame has changed. just a little xD

The bottom line is if you don't have any bracket matches or MMs (or even crews or something, idk) from the last 365 days, then this part of your argument that it's -2 based on your "experience" doesn't work.

also I never said that zair was the only move that makes the handicap. Zair/projectiles and aerials constitute the handicap together. Acting like TL can't use bombs just because Ganon *may* catch one or two with nair is a gross oversimplification. Keep in mind the TL can SHDL or bomb throw to force that reaction and punish. In every aspect of close combat, mid range, and especially long range, TL has plenty of options that Ganon can't really handle at all. It's -3 because the TL doesn't need to employ anything more than basics to win.

 

[Cassio]

I think the video evidence of Ganon beating Toon Link's a bit too strong to ignore.

http://youtu.be/pH0edL96ZsY?t=1m45s

Toon Link cant really do anytdhing about this.

Btw, I dont think its fair to call Verms experience irrelevant or its use as an argument a fallacy. Setting terms like that is a bit arbitrary, its better to explain why his experience is not correct.

 

[NH Cody]

well played, Truth. I guess Toon Link does lose the matchup after all.

edit @ your edit: look at it this way. The difference between -2 and -3 is really the border between winnable and unwinnable. Show me any results from any tournament ever where a Ganon beat any Toon Link, and it doesn't even have to be recent. If it's winnable then all probability would mandate that there be at least ONE instance of this somewhere.

 

[bubbaking]

explaining technical stuff to coney =/= explaining basic character options to DLA


you told DLA to punish MK's landing after nado, like he never tried it in his whole life. You also told him to shieldgrab it, like wut?

DLA is also not posting in a video critique thread asking for help here. Also, what top players are posting in video critique threads asking for help?! He told you "Ganon can't do anything about MK if he does these things." and you basically told him he was wrong. He's assuming top level play, and you're obviously not.

Elitist, through and through..... You act like top players can never be wrong, which is nothing short of ridiculous. Chars can PS > shieldgrab 'nado. Did you not know this? I didn't realize that Ganon was one of the few chars with a close-ranged grab slow enough to not be able to do this, so I retracted that statement. No sense in bringing it back up. Yes, I told him that I believed he was wrong. Obviously, I believe that if he thinks the MU is +4 and I don't. We're both assuming high/top level play. "What top players are posting in video critique threads asking for help?" Why don't you look around in some character sub-forums for once. I can tell you straight-up from personal experience that the top Melee Samus players (Plup, Duck, and DarrelD) have often asked for constructive criticism and comments on our video critique thread. Don't be so pretentious.

I've personally given Darrel "basic" advice and info that he didn't know about before, despite him being a top Samus and me being a high mid-level Samus at best. That's to address your high-and-mighty nonsense that good players can't be given help by worse players. That's just completely wrong. However, telling DLA he is wrong does not mean I am telling him how to play Ganon. If you bothered to keep up with this discussion, I was just praising DLA as a player I feel is actually high/top level, despite being a Low Tier main, which is very, very uncommon. Don't be so presumptuous.

Btw, I noticed that you didn't say anything to Quest or BC, who also basically said 'you're wrong' to DLA, despite being worse players. You got something to say to them, or do you only have a bone to pick with me?

I said 65-35 "or something" indicating that I wasn't sure of the exact numbers but that they were somewhere around there, because I've seen that number thrown around a lot. Seagull looked it up and saw that it was listed as 60-40, so I was close.

It's not exactly "close" because the MU ranges from even to 60-40, depending on who you talk to. 65-35 is an exaggeration from Marth mains who overestimate Sheik, forgetting the fact that Marth can juggle her for days and edgeguard her stupidly easily. Sheiks also overestimate Marth saying it's even when it's not. I'm a Sheik secondary, and I think Sheik definitely wins. Sheik's also the only MU that Marth loses at top level, because those Marth's don't drop combos.

And by "stuff you don't know enough about" I was referring specifically to Melee Marth. I secondary Marth in Melee, I know his MUs, and he definitely does not go even with Spacies lol (I believe M2K said Marth wins on FD by a large amount, barely wins on YS, goes even on BF and FoD, loses badly on Dreamland, and loses on PS, not sure if that was exactly it)

Uh, you know, that stage-MU spread you just gave suggests an even pretty well. Winning strongly on one stage and by less on another, losing badly on one stage and by less on another, and going even on the rest sounds a LOT like an even MU. With strikes and bans in place, and the equal numbers of stages favoring either side of the MU, there's no reason the MU shouldn't take place on an even-ish stage.

To everyone else, I'm sorry for continuing this off-topic discussion, but I just had to clear things up. I'll try not to respond to these types of discussions in the future.

Apologies? Really? You act like this is the first and only off-topic discussion you've ever facilitated?

Great. The on time I try to actually participate in the discussion I get hated on. I think I'm just going to go back to what I used to do.

You mean continuing off-topic discussions?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Holy ****. Quest just got ****ing *****. I need to sit down. I cannot handle what just happened.

Verm really is the king.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

except you don't play ganon, and DLA does? Like, it's not like you're some low level ganon player who may have insight into the character, you're a low/mid level DDD player who doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the Ganon/MK mu.

And I'm not talking to anyone else, cuz I'm not reading the thread. I keep getting alerts that you quoted me, so I respond.

 

[infiniteV115]

Uh Quest can you cite any results from the past year of TL beating Ganon at a notable level (bracket/MM/crews like you said)
If not then neither side really has any results so you should just play it safe and call it an even MU.

 

[Bloodcross]

I was never talking exclusively about WiFi. I just added that I've fought a bunch of WiFi TLs in addition. As far as criteria, any match where I feel like the other player is playing the MU the way it's meant to be played. When I played Jerm, for example, it wasn't a tourney match, but we worked the clock down to the lower bounds of 2 minutes, so I'm fairly positive I can assume he wasn't sandbagging. Selecting MU samples is a bit different from determining wins.

The point stands though. Throughout my 3 years in play, I've fought TLs in all mediums. TL is not a -3. His primary advantage over Ganon is his ability to spam him to death. But projectile walls alone don't qualify as a horrible matchup--just one that requires due patience.

okay well you're trying to make an ethos appeal ("this matchup is -2 because I say it is and I have authority/experience") and you're not specifying where your experience comes from.

Appealing to ethos is only meaningfully fallacious in discussions where experience isn't material. In this discussion, it is. Also, ethos applies primarily to the emotional manipulation of one's audience by appeal to ideology, so it wasn't really such a thing.

This is irrelevant. You are attempting an ethos appeal, which is invalid in the context of a logical debate over the MK issue. The fact that some people in these regions may object to an MK ban does not support your implied claim that it is illogical to ban MK. Furthermore, it is likely that you are erroneous in the content of your statements: many people in New England favor an MK-banned ruleset, which is why Smashachusetts, Mega Mass Madness, and all the Rhode Island tourneys were MK banned. Clearly, NY is not entirely anti-ban because the state has hosted numerous MK banned tourneys including the Impact series, Struggle Snuggle, etc.

 

[NH Cody]

Uh Quest can you cite any results from the past year of TL beating Ganon at a notable level (bracket/MM/crews like you said)
If not then neither side really has any results so you should just play it safe and call it an even MU.

lol.

no one really solo mains ganondorf anymore. This MU doesn't really matter but it's definitely not reasonably winnable for ganon.

 

[bubbaking]

except you don't play ganon, and DLA does? Like, it's not like you're some low level ganon player who may have insight into the character, you're a low/mid level DDD player who doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the Ganon/MK mu.

And I'm not talking to anyone else, cuz I'm not reading the thread. I keep getting alerts that you quoted me, so I respond.

You're being quoted because you initially responded to only me, lolz. You're also making the same dumb mistake that too many people on here have made by assuming that DDD's the only char I play (and assuming that I'm a low one at that ). Ganon's also one of the chars I watch the most matches of and am very interested in. Spend more than five minutes in this thread and that becomes clear. Heck, I essentially started this very conversation regarding Ganon now. If people here only talked about chars they mained, even to their best users, then there'd be no nearly no useful discussion in this thread ever.


If MK +4'd Ganon, then he wouldn't have won as much money as he did in a MK-legal environment, IMO. Btw, yes, you definitely have a knack for starting these sorts of arguments. You made a very similar derogatory comment when I was telling Overswarm how to edgeguard Diddy in P:M after he explicitly admitted that he didn't know how to edgeguard Diddy. I hope you aren't turning into another Strong Bad...

LOL Bloody. My records similar with him offline XD.

:018

Stop messing up your smileys. You make me sick.....

okay well you're trying to make an ethos appeal ("this matchup is -2 because I say it is and I have authority/experience") and you're not specifying where your experience comes from. Friendlies with Jerm a year ago or beyond that don't really hold any water when it's 2013 and people know matchups. Sure, in the past no one knew how to fight Ganon and it may have seemed easier for you. It's not the same anymore.

How is fighting Ganon any different now from how it was back then?

 

[NH Cody]

Fighting ganon is easier now for a lot of people because they would have had more ganon exp by now. same with a lot of other low tier MUs.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

If people here only talked about chars they mained, even to their best users, then there'd be no nearly no useful discussion in this thread ever.

That would be so different from what it's like now.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Fighting ganon is easier now for a lot of people because they would have had more ganon exp by now. same with a lot of other low tier MUs.

I feel like people have said this same thing since 2010 (Every year).