Official BBR Tier List v7

[pidgezero_one]

Kyo's a mod now?

Is he still a fan of my nonsense?

 

[NH Cody]

Okay, work through it one at a time.

1. "experience" is "evidence". How is it not? We value experience when talking about this stuff.

Well then you have no place in this thread because you probably don't even go to offline tournaments regularly

2. As far as I knew, your point was not to bring up stuff from a year ago to call it evidence because the meta has changed since then. Am I right so far? Then you talked about how the meta game has changed from 2010 to 2013. Am I correct in point out the fallacy in that logic?

lolwhat. He was alluding to friendlies and aib ladder matches. Considering he hasn't laddered since like 2009, I find it hard to believe that any of this practice would still be relevant. There is no fallacy there. But I'll play along. Sure let's say that everyone plays like they did in the old days. If you want to count aib ladder matches as experience then that's all fine and dandy cause I have 20x more Ganon matches under my belt than he has TL matches. I guess I'm the best in the world at Ganon theorycraft now since I have aib ladder experience?

3. I may not be familiar with the characters but I know how an argument works. You made it seem before as though verm was trying to argue for it to be a positive MU in ganon's favour, which he clearly isn't.

nawp never said that. readb4upost

You made your point (ganon cannot get in), verm responded with "He has Nair to deal with arrows and the like but he still has to worry about boomerangs." (or something of the sort). Ok. That's when you use that to say "boomerangs and aerials can keep him out from there," etc etc. But I literally saw no continuation of that.

yeah I already explained why that post was wrong. go back.

4. Every character has a meta game. Even ganon.

yes he has a thriving metagame even though no one has used him in tournament since Vermanubis 7 months ago at a local. okay.

5. Basically, you've given theory and verm's given evidence (how I see it, and don't you read this and reply to it until you've read the parts above). I just feel as though verm has the stronger evidence and even if his matches are outdated, okay, then his point is as good as yours.

why do you keep saying this xD. he didn't give "evidence." If you're still talking about his theorycraft and how nair > TL? then I lol at you and Vermanubis still thinking that's true.

Go from there. And I wasn't annoyed because you made a bunch of posts that in my eyes seemed riddled with holes, I was annoyed because you abruptly cut the conversation off with "why are we still talking about this horrible character?"

yeah because that's when he revealed that no one has used Ganon for seven months lolol. I just said screw it - this conversation is ridiculous.

which is like M2K or some other dedicated top MK main saying "TL doesn't matter so shut up about him." If you were a TL main in a discussion prior to such a statement, you probably wouldn't like that.

no, cause that's totally different. Toon Link is a relevant character with *actual players*. There are around 4-5 Toon Link players in the U.S. who are at least something of a tournament threat. Notice how no Ganon mains were in Apex or SKTAR bracket, while three toon link users were (2 for sktar).

EDIT: Yea I checked, Verm gave a whole bunch of theoretical reasons why it's not impossible for ganon to get in. You responded to that with nothing. Literally. You didn't even quote it.

look harder

 

[Vermanubis]

It was a regional, and I laddered last in late 2011, just for correct information's sake.

And Luco's right, you didn't respond to what I said. You just dismissed me and called Ganon irrelevant.

 

[Luco]

EDIT: Verm already said it.

Give me a sec to respond to the other parts of the post.

 

[NH Cody]

Like I said, I already responded to "nair shutting down TL's bomb game"

also I never said that zair was the only move that makes the handicap. Zair/projectiles and aerials constitute the handicap together. Acting like TL can't use bombs just because Ganon *may* catch one or two with nair is a gross oversimplification. Keep in mind the TL can SHDA or bomb throw to force that reaction and punish. In every aspect of close combat, mid range, and especially long range, TL has plenty of options that Ganon can't really handle at all. It's -3 because the TL doesn't need to employ anything more than basics to win.

 

[Vermanubis]

That's addressing bombs--which I didn't saying NAir could do anything about. You forgot to respond to the other four things I mentioned, wherein NAir is a guaranteed punish on block against most of TL's pressuring tools. I know for a fact that you can't contest this, because you admitted to having played only Breezy and Bloody--Bloody only uses NAir as a jumping cover from the ledge and Breezy doesn't even know what NAir means (which of course doesn't mean he's a bad player; he just, like most Ganons, does not use NAir)

 

[Luco]

EDIT: Verm already said it.

Give me a sec to respond to the other parts of the post.

If you can't even bring up ONE DARNED GANON main who has played in tournament for a year, then there's no way you can be claiming this character is at all relevant and that his metagame has been advancing significantly more than TL's to the extent that he can somehow beat TL.

I suppose you could be referring to a -2 as 'winnable' but it can be mis-interpreted. Eh.

Now, before we start this, I see you quoted one of your posts, so you can ignore my parts on that, since you guys have now started a conversation.

1. Well then you have no place in this thread because you probably don't even go to offline tournaments regularly



2. lolwhat. He was alluding to friendlies and aib ladder matches. Considering he hasn't laddered since like 2009, I find it hard to believe that any of this practice would still be relevant. There is no fallacy there. But I'll play along. Sure let's say that everyone plays like they did in the old days. If you want to count aib ladder matches as experience then that's all fine and dandy cause I have 20x more Ganon matches under my belt than he has TL matches. I guess I'm the best in the world at Ganon theorycraft now since I have aib ladder experience?



3. nawp never said that. readb4upost



4. yeah I already explained why that post was wrong. go back.



5. yes he has a thriving metagame even though no one has used him in tournament since Vermanubis 7 months ago at a local. okay.


6. why do you keep saying this xD. he didn't give "evidence." If you're still talking about his theorycraft and how nair > TL? then I lol at you and Vermanubis still thinking that's true.

7. yeah because that's when he revealed that no one has used Ganon for seven months lolol. I just said screw it - this conversation is ridiculous.

8. no, cause that's totally different. Toon Link is a relevant character with *actual players*. There are around 4-5 Toon Link players in the U.S. who are at least something of a tournament threat. Notice how no Ganon mains were in Apex or SKTAR bracket, while three toon link users were (2 for sktar).


9. look harder

Numbered what you said so you know what i'm referring to as I do it.

1. That's not even an argument, lol. For one, you have no idea whether I do or not (i've been taking a break from regular tournaent play recently, not because I wanted to though. I'm going back soon though). For another, that's just a really stupid argument to make in general because it doesn't even really address that point. You should know that it's pretty much fairly accepted that evidence > theory (in general).

2. He just went and said he did it in 2011, which is better than 2009. When (not who, when) did you last ladder/play ganon? You still haven't answered me that. Or if you have then I haven't seen it so point me to it. If it's recent then maybe there's something. I dunno.

3. I actually already answered this in my first paragraph of this post.

5. Do you really think verm is the only ganon player around? This argument has so many holes I don't even know where to begin... you haven't even factored in DLA, not to mention all the other dedicated ganon mains out there. Lets also not forget that smashboards isn't the only place you get every main and that places such as aib and even RL tournies see success as well.

7. Whether or not ganon has been used for 7 months (which i'm pretty sure he has), you certainly don't throw a conversation the way you did. What you meant is irrelevant if it comes across that you're insulting ganon and everyone that uses him.

8. What you're saying here is also irrelevant as i'm not talking about how prominent they are, i'm talking about how sucky it would feel to be told that. All you're saying is the evidence as to why it wouldn't happen, which is not my point. My point is to get you to understand what you said and it's effect on people.

Okay, verm has just made his point on that, so... I guess i'll just sit back and watch the convo now?

 

[NH Cody]

Yeah you did.

Ganon's NAir alone can beat TL's arrows, and with bomb-catching, that leaves TL with boomerangs to keep Ganon out, with the exception of ZAir on the ground.

in some cases nair can work as a punish. but Ganon doesn't get the chance to do that enough for it to be game changing. If the Toon Link is spacing right that wouldn't happen often.

 

[Vermanubis]

Since when does bomb-catching equate to NAir beating bombs?

And no, it works almost all of the time. The spacing has to be such that it wouldn't hit Ganon unless he ran into it from a distance. And by your views, I don't think anything could convince you that something's game-changing. NAir precludes TL's ability to pressure Ganon freely, and it combos for heavy damage. TL spends most of his time in the air, so one good read means a combo from Ganon that requires TL to re-pitch his tent, as it were. So, to be clear:

-No one would be silly enough to say Ganon wins. He's -2, as everyone but you so far as either explicitly or implicitly agreed with. Again, this obviously does not necessarily certify it, but it makes the notion that you're correct highly unlikely, especially given the evident, and admitted inexperience on your part.

-In theory, TL can run away from Ganon forever. Know what else works in theory? FSmashing Falco's side-b. Doesn't happen very often though, so I wouldn't bank on it. Inexperience plus an imagination means the image in your head of you running away from Ganon all day without error or punishment probably isn't how things actually are. When I first started playing in '08, I thought Fox was broken because I figured I could just keep dash attacking people and they wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Point is, 90% of the time, what's in your head does not translate into the reality of the MU. While there're many good Ganons, there're few who're capable of demonstrating how monstrously intimidating he can be, thus the fact that Ganon is the worst in the game belies the fact that he is still capable of monstrous things.

-NAir is Ganon's most invaluable asset in the MU. It cancels out arrows, combos, creates walls and punish any and all whiffed aerials on shield.

-Ganon has tools to gimp TL with his reverse UAir, TL's awful roll means that Ganon has, as the Germans say, der Wahl der Qual, after a Gerudo choke. In other words, Ganon can cover 2+ options with any given move thanks to TL's clumsy roll.

 

[NH Cody]

Numbered what you said so you know what i'm referring to as I do it.

1. That's not even an argument, lol. For one, you have no idea whether I do or not (i've been taking a break from regular tournaent play recently, not because I wanted to though. I'm going back soon though). For another, that's just a really stupid argument to make in general because it doesn't even really address that point. You should know that it's pretty much fairly accepted that evidence > theory (in general).

What does that mean? Evidence is theory. It's all just a bunch of words. You're not being clear about what you're referring to. If anything you were saying before that experience is important, and you don't seem to have that much...

2. He just went and said he did it in 2011, which is better than 2009. When (not who, when) did you last ladder/play ganon? You still haven't answered me that. Or if you have then I haven't seen it so point me to it. If it's recent then maybe there's something. I dunno.

Yeah I said that I played Bloody extensively and Breezy several times. Bloody was active offline so if there's a ganon we would pick to be *good* right now, it's him.

last year I think summer.

5. Do you really think verm is the only ganon player around? This argument has so many holes I don't even know where to begin... you haven't even factored in DLA, not to mention all the other dedicated ganon mains out there. Lets also not forget that smashboards isn't the only place you get every main and that places such as aib and even RL tournies see success as well.

Vermanubis said this, not me. RL tourneys? as in real life? Those are the ONLY tourneys we would be considering. lol. The only important Ganon mains are the ones who show up in tourney results. Sure there may be other Ganon mains but they probably don't go offline and do well.

7. Whether or not ganon has been used for 7 months (which i'm pretty sure he has), you certainly don't throw a conversation the way you did. What you meant is irrelevant if it comes across that you're insulting ganon and everyone that uses him.

This is a tier list thread. Its purpose is to state that some characters like this one are flat out horrible

 

[Vermanubis]

You played two Ganons who are admittedly not top level, on WiFi, last year--and you're being so stalwart? By your own qualifications, I automatically invalidate whatever you say, since the last good TL I faced was a little less than a year ago offline. Of course, this isn't <me> speaking, but rather, pointing out that you're arguing against your own prescribed criteria.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh kyo's a mod. Grats kyo! ^_^

Sorry, i know that was off-topic. Just realized and... yea...

TY, it just happened earlier today (:
I still have TONS of guidelines to read and "paperwork" to fill, but yea...

And I actually think PS2 is totally okay. Until PS1 gets banned I say let it be there. I think it's one of the few occasions where a stage will come in to the ruleset from originally being out of it. That's a pretty momentous occasion, in my eyes at least.

While I agree PS2 is fine, the logic you posted is a bit off, imo.
The stage has no *logical* reason to be out of any stagelist anyway (unless you are talking about the japanese lists, but hey use a completly different logic), so as those stagelists excluding it don't make sense in the first place, neither does the phrase "come in from originally being out".
If you have not a good reason to ban a stage, you shouldn't ban it.

Kyo's a mod now?

Is he still a fan of my nonsense?

A red ribbon wouldn't make me like your posts any less.
Maybe a Red Name (ala old SWF) would, though

 

[Espy Rose]

Kyo, you don't have to read it. You should know what it says, and being a mod is easier than anything.

 

[Luco]

What does that mean? Evidence is theory. It's all just a bunch of words. You're not being clear about what you're referring to. If anything you were saying before that experience is important, and you don't seem to have that much...

No, evidence is something that can help you prove something. Theory is only as good as the match it describes. In this case, evidence is... matches.

Yeah I said that I played Bloody extensively and Breezy several times. Bloody was active offline so if there's a ganon we would pick to be *good* right now, it's him.

last year I think summer.

I'm not familiar with the abbreviations - where do you live? Is summer a while ago for you?

Vermanubis said this, not me. RL tourneys? as in real life? Those are the ONLY tourneys we would be considering. lol. The only important Ganon mains are the ones who show up in tourney results. Sure there may be other Ganon mains but they probably don't go offline and do well.

I just said RL tournies so you wouldn't get confused... and you're still ignoring DLA.

This is a tier list thread. Its purpose is to state that some characters like this one are flat out horrible

No, it's meant to determine characters who are bad in the context of this game. That doesn't mean they're horrible. Example: You have 5 apples. 4 of them are amazing, 1 of them is good. Just because that 1 is the worst of the lot, doesn't mean it's bad.

EVEN if it was, that doesn't mean you insult people who think that apple is fine or who will eat it anyway. Lol.

Responses in red.

@Kyo: True but with that logic you have to assume all the current stagelists are flawed, which while it's probably true, sets up a bad wall to get through if you want to say something like I did.

How I see it is just basically:

Stagelists don't have PS2

Stagelists should have PS2

Rather than:

Stagelists don't make sense

PS2 is already in the optimal stagelist which we just haven't acquired yet.


You know what i mean? I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the stagelists, that's why I see it this way. but I totally respect how you see it.

And I haven't seen the actual rules, I just don't think PS2's transformation s are so much more extreme than other things we have. I guess by their own merit they're not too bad either, that's why I like it I guess.

 

[NH Cody]

Since when does bomb-catching equate to NAir beating bombs?

because you said "that leaves TL with boomerangs to keep Ganon out," implying that he can't use bombs or arrows just because of nair.

-No one would be silly enough to say Ganon wins. He's -2, as everyone but you so far as either explicitly or implicitly agreed with. Again, this obviously does not necessarily certify it, but it makes the notion that you're correct highly unlikely, especially given the evident, and admitted inexperience on your part.

I never admitted to inexperience because it would be a false confession. If you're allowed to use aib ladder matches then so am I. june 2012 is much more recent than your matches in 2011. also I don't know of any good TLs in Washington or Oregon. My money match with Gunblade was a while back so that doesn't matter I guess.

and it's pretty silly to say "no one else posted on the subject so they obviously agree with me and not you." As a matter of fact, the one other person who did post was Tesh and he seemed to agree with me.

-In theory, TL can run away from Ganon forever. Know what else works in theory? FSmashing Falco's side-b. Doesn't happen very often though, so I wouldn't bank on it. Inexperience plus an imagination means the image in your head of you running away from Ganon all day without error or punishment probably isn't how things actually are. When I first started playing in '08, I thought Fox was broken because I figured I could just keep dash attacking people and they wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Point is, 90% of the time, what's in your head does not translate into the reality of the MU. While there're many good Ganons, there're few who're capable of demonstrating how monstrously intimidating he can be, thus the fact that Ganon is the worst in the game belies the fact that he is still capable of monstrous things.

Toon Link is capable of even more dastardly things

You're talking about windows for error and punishment? TL has a bigger margin for error than Ganon does. If the Ganon messes up when he has momentum it could cost him severely. That might be his only opportunity to get big damage/the stock and if he doesn't capitalize on *every* one of these moments he has very little hope of winning.

-Ganon has tools to gimp TL with his reverse UAir, TL's awful roll means that Ganon has, as the Germans say, der Wahl der Qual, after a Gerudo choke. In other words, Ganon can cover 2+ options with any given move thanks to TL's clumsy roll.

If the Ganon connects a side-B on Toon Link it's kind of like Snake dthrow. it's not impossible to escape. I'm not seeing how TL's roll being bad allows Ganon to tech chase easier. You can react and do the getup attack, etc.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Kyo, you don't have to read it. You should know what it says, and being a mod is easier than anything.

It sure does look easy... too easy... I just want to be completly sure.

 

[NH Cody]

Luco, stop saying I insulted people. I did not

 

[Seagull Joe]

Chip, d~mac, and some other guy are s from WA.

 

[Luco]

and it's pretty silly to say "no one else posted on the subject so they obviously agree with me and not you." As a matter of fact, the one other person who did post was Tesh and he seemed to agree with me.

If the Ganon connects a side-B on Toon Link it's kind of like Snake dthrow. it's not impossible to escape. I'm not seeing how TL's roll being bad allows Ganon to tech chase easier. You can react and do the getup attack, etc.

...

... How many people do you have on your ignore list... ? o.O

But in all seriousness, i'm pretty sure a lot of people at least said verm had the better argument. I'll go back and check.

Also, being in the slam position is pretty bad in general. You have 4 options, all of which can be punished rather easy. You're only saving grace is that you can mix it up and bewilder the opponent. This is hard when your roll is painfully slow. I guess it's also bad against ganon... ?

Luco, stop saying I insulted people. I did not

I suppose this is a personal thing of mine: For instance I hate it when someone comes along and says 'melee is great and brawl is trash' because they're implying that i've put all my work and effort in to something stupid as heck.

Do you understand why i'm annoyed at what you said? Keep in mind that many people aren't hesitant to dismiss my character either.

EDIT: Went and checked and a lot of people agreed with verm and the like.

 

[Tesh]

discussing characters this bad is depressing. we are basically just measuring degrees of failure here. does he lose -2 or -3? who cares. the best ganon is here, but the best toon links aren't interested and arguing about how hard they can camp ganon and avoid his traps.

reverse uair isn't that great for gimping decent characters imo, you can only go safely off the ledge a certain distance before you risk someone just getting past you and grabbing the ledge first. this is especially true for tether characters who have the broken ability to airdodge and then change their minds at any time to attack or grab the ledge. ganondorf can't really edgeguard toon link through bombs, rangs, tethering and superior range. something like reverse uair would be nice if ganon had other options to mix in.

@ quest, when he talks about bad rolls, he is likely referring to ones you can react to. keep in mind once you are over 100% its just like snake where you risk being killed for waiting because he can just dash attack you immediately.

 

[NH Cody]

discussing characters this bad is depressing. we are basically just measuring degrees of failure here. does he lose -2 or -3? who cares.

oh dang, inb4 long paragraphs from Luco about Low Tier Pride.

 

[Luco]

oh dang, inb4 long paragraphs from Luco about Low Tier Pride.

[insert low tier pride here]

I got nothin'.

Have fun, guys.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Modding in some places is hard. I quit a few positions because it wasn't worth the stress. Of course those communities were pretty terrible. Much worse than swf.

10 years of it turned me into the stable well-adjusted character I am today

 

[NH Cody]

how about we talk about how Marth is A tier worthy?

 

[infiniteV115]

I think Marth is A-tier material. I'm just not gonna try to argue it cause he doesn't really have the results to back that up (or even close, really).

 

[NH Cody]

who is your avatar...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Modding in some places is hard. I quit a few positions because it wasn't worth the stress. Of course those communities were pretty terrible. Much worse than swf.

I have also "modded" (mostly watched over) some places.
SWF community is not bad at all, it just happens that 90% of it is dumb on certain areas.
My anti-specialty is wording and phrasing...

10 years of it turned me into the stable well-adjusted character I am today

yay, I still have hope!

how about we talk about how Marth is A tier worthy?

Well, he goes even with everyone in A...
He just lacks results outside of Europe and Mikeneko.

 

[infiniteV115]

who is your avatar...

Why, I could ask you the very same question.

 

[NH Cody]

o.o

This is clearly me...

*sips coffee*

 

[pidgezero_one]

who is your avatar...

it's me, in all my masculine glory

 

[pidgezero_one]

I have also "modded" (mostly watched over) some places.
SWF community is not bad at all, it just happens that 90% of it is dumb on certain areas.
My anti-specialty is wording and phrasing...


yay, I still have hope!


Well, he goes even with everyone in A...
He just lacks results outside of Europe and Mikeneko.

you are gonna be just fine <3

 

[infiniteV115]

o.o

This is clearly me...

*sips coffee*

And this is clearly me

it's me, in all my masculine glory

Nonsense
It is clearly me, in all my equine glory.

Here's another picture for proof

Spoiler

 

[Dekillsage]

Pretty

good

 

[BlueXenon]

And this is clearly me

Nonsense
It is clearly me, in all my equine glory.

Here's another picture for proof

Spoiler

I can only see the picture if I reply.
Edit: I can see it in the orginal post now.

 

[Luco]

how about we talk about how Marth is A tier worthy?

I actually think this is totally possible and support it.

I see everyone's gonna do this thing with their avatars.

Far be it from me to ruin their fun...

Because, you know, all i can really do is hover here with my brother and type and all...

 

[bubbaking]

bubba, do you SERIOUSLY want to discuss stage(lists) against me?
Please say no so I don't write a long response to that post.

We already had that discussion, lolz. You're an uber-liberal for no reaason.

To many unqualified opinions for my liking. Someone should just ask ally what he thinks about these mus and get it over with. I do believe ally agreed a while back that snake wasn't as good as people make him out to be.

While we're at it, we should let M2K be the definitive voice of reason for MK's MUs and ESAM be that for Pika's. I don't see why people got so upset with a 0 MU between MK and Pika before, since the best MK in the world at the time agreed on it with the only Pika that mattered.

Anyone have a guess at top 3 or top 5 for the next tier list were it released today?

I don't know what to think about IC's or ZSS or Snake right now...

In order from top to bottom:

TL's been found out--it's not as though his metagame has evolved to such a point that his aerials are no longer punishable on shield, that his arrows go through NAirs, his ZAir got longer and that he no longer dies at 100%.

Priceless...

 

[Luco]

Top 5?

Umm.... I'm gonna go ahead and guess something like:


(Wow this one was tough... I think oli's probably gonna go down but who would take his spot if ICs didn't? Diddy? Umm... I'll just have ICs as filler here i guess...)


// (dunno)

I actually don't think the top 5 are gonna change that much except for order.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Do people really have to question if should be 2nd? Look at the Crossfire results from this weekend.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yeah. Snake is a better character

 

[ぱみゅ]

We already had that discussion, lolz. You're an uber-liberal for no reaason.

That means I have the reason to be liberalist as most people's reasoning for their conservationism.
Good to know we're not having that discussion.... again (:


A Top 5?
1 - -
2 - - Mostly because they are extremely popular at top level, unlike other A-tier characters.
3 - - Solid character, but -1 against ICs.
4 - - His low representation at top level only hurts him.
5 - - He's still a solid character, and going even against ICs is a plus.
-Marth or Falco could be there and nobody would notice them rising, but only pick on Snake dropping. None of them has many results to back up the rise.
-If ZSS gets there it will look like the BBR got biased after APEX (similar to when Olimar got #2 in v7).
No other character can even be considered to be close to them.