Official BBR Tier List v7

[ぱみゅ]

idk man, everytime I've seen them play Ganon wins.
It's at least 75-25 only because Ganon can attack and damage a lot.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I disagree with the zss bandwagon. salem is amazing, and his win at apex was amazing, but i don't think one major win in isolation justifies a position jump to the level of other A rank characters.

I largely agree with everything else here, though.

ZSS shouldve been A Tier before Apex.

Besides, even if she doesnt even pass anyone on the list and stays put, you could just bump her up a tier and she'd be A Tier, she's already THE top of B Tier.

I personally think ZSS is better than at least Wario, and have thought this for almost a year now, and I think ZSS/Marth/Pika are somewhat interchangeable order wise, so dont care in what order those 3 are.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Someone point me to all of those major Marth, Pikachu, and Falco solo wins pls.

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS is the top of C tier dummy

 

[NH Cody]

Havok was definitely on the top of his 's game at Apex when he lost to Hinkage.

because pools matter at all? LOL

Kiraflax beat Tearbear in pools but then lost convincingly in bracket. I guess we'd consider them "even" then?

notice how hinkage went 1-2 in bracket, only beating "slikvik", while Havok went way farther and beat FOW. Do you have any idea how hard it is to beat FOW?? You're a fool if you think his loss in pools means anything xD

@Quest
I didn't say there were no good Snakes outside of Ally, stop making things up. I said I don't consider them to be top level players. I consider MVD Fatal Bizkit Havok and Mike Ray (in no particular order) high-level players. Razer would be on that list too but he apparently quit. Razer was top level imo around the time of Apex 2012, maybe he still is idk, I haven't seen much from him since then outside of Apex 2013.
I don't even consider Nick Riddle a top level player and he outplaced all the solo Snakes at Apex using a worse character.

Saying someone is not a top player is an insult?
Damn, I either have to lie about like 99% of Brawl players or I have to insult them. This definition sucks.

No but seriously, you just had Snake as like #2 or #3 on your personal tier list right? Obviously you think he's reasonably viable as a solo main. So a top player playing this character should be capable of winning large tournies right? (Nationals/internationals)

Look me in the eye and tell me you think Fatal/Bizkit/Mikeray/Havok/MVD is capable of doing such a thing. I'll ****ing skype if I have to bro.

1. I never gave a definition for top players. you're making this up.
2. You *are* giving a definition for top players, and it's wrong. You have to win a national tournament to be a top player? Really? well then I guess you have to pack up your stuff and move to Mars cause Ally hasn't won a national since 1942 and therefore he's not a top player. /V115 "logic" (or the lack thereof)
3. I guess the only top players are Salem, Nairo, and ESAM cause they're the only ones who win nationals! CT Zero? Anti? Trela? DEHF? Dabuz? Forget them, V115 says you all are way far from top level! step it up, yall! You guys aren't good enough for V115.

Luco literally everything you said is wrong. You didn't even read the conversation cause you said things like "Verm was giving evidence" when he even admitted he was just drawing on "experience". and I already said this. You commented on my comment that 2010 was "before 365 days ago"? Why would you do that? that's exactly what my point was. Verm has no recent experience. There IS no Ganon metagame, so that's why this conversation is pointless and over. Respond to my posts about how it's impossible for Ganon to get in. not that you are deeply familiar with either of these characters. Read and think about what you post before you make yourself look silly.

 

[infiniteV115]

1. I never gave a definition for top players. you're making this up.

You told me I was insulting them by saying they're not top players. -.-
Ok it may not be a 'definition' per se, but it's still a stupid thing to say.

I didn't say you're not a top player until you win a large tourney, I said a top player playing a character that's viable as a solo main should be capable of winning a large tourney. Learn to read.
Obviously if you come close to winning at large tournies, it's safe to assume that you're probably capable of winning unless you get absolutely bodied by a few others at the top, because top players tend to go back and forth with a few exceptions. Anti Larry and Dabuz (as well as tons of others that I don't need to mention) all fall into this category. Although Larry has been 'bodied' before, that had more to do with his char getting hard-countered by ICs (ie not necessarily being viable as a solo-main) then anything else.
Obviously if you've beaten multiple other top players before (ZeRo beating M2K Ally Anti Nairo ADHD ESAM Salem) then it's safe to assume that you're probably capable of winning a large tournament. Again Anti Larry & Dabuz all fall into this category along with ZeRo and many others.

Trela doesn't play a char that's viable as a solo-main (imo) and he still managed to get 5th at SKTAR and beat M2K, and I'm fairly certain he has multiple wins on Gnes and Razer who were both arguably top players and they play characters that beat Lucario (again you have to take characters into account) so I think it's fair to call Trela a top player.

What's the closest any of these Snake players have come to winning a large tourney? Fatal was the highest placing of these Snakes at SKTAR (25th)
Havok used Snake and MK and got 17th (definitely a good and respectable placing, but not exactly 'close to winning') at Apex 2013, but the best (char + player) people he beat were Kairo and FOW, and idk if he used Snake against either of these people.
All the other Snakes got 33rd or below, except Ally (Snake + MK) at 13th.
Razer and MVD got 9th and 13th respectively at WHOBO 4, but that tourney wasn't even that big and that still isn't very close.

And yeah this is getting boring. You bring up your case for them being top players. Or show me the multiple top players that they've taken out XD

 

[Iota]

This thread is making my head hurt.

Who can't deal with Wario (assuming he's one of the two chars you're talking about going by your post right before this one)? Having a pocket Marth for both chars is easier AND more effective overall.

Pocket Marths are not gonna beat good Warios. Wario is actually really good at fighting his -2s believe it or not.

 

[NH Cody]

idk what this BS is about characters "viable as a solo main." If you're using a broken character like Snake/Olimar/Diddy, it's obviously viable as a solo main xD

you have no definition that isn't ambiguous or arbitrary. Now you can't be a top player if you get bodied? wth is this, lolol... That must mean M2K isn't a top player cause Salem bodied him, Nairo isn't a top player cause Otori bodied him, and Larry isn't a top player cause Leon bodied him. obviously all false. Your criterion of being "capable" of winning a national is nonsense and has no meaning. Everyone is "capable" of winning a national. Only three actually have as of recent times.

the real definition is "players who consistently do very well in tournaments." It's really that simple. There are lots of top players who have had good accomplishments and get 1st and 2nd all the time in their region. If you think "this" is getting boring, then why did you start it xD Don't pick fights and fire shots at people randomly.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

idk what this BS is about characters "viable as a solo main." If you're using a broken character like Snake/Olimar/Diddy, it's obviously viable as a solo main xD

Snake is debatable lol

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pocket Marths are not gonna beat good Warios. Wario is actually really good at fighting his -2s believe it or not.

Real talk here, I sometimes feel Wario:DDD is like ±1 on any non-FD stage

 

[Espy Rose]

So is Quest the new addition to the group of Jebus/Bubba/Gheb?

 

[NH Cody]

Snake is debatable lol

It's Snake. Are we talking about the same character?

So is Quest the new addition to the group of Jebus/Bubba/Gheb?

I will be in no such group with Bubba.

 

[infiniteV115]

I didn't pick a fight/fire shots, I stated my opinion on a couple of Snake players and you said

This is horribly wrong and you should feel bad for saying it. You're insulting a lot of legit snake mains.

In other words, u started it bich
Nairo/M2K didn't get 'bodied' by Otori/Salem, M2K lost 3-2 and I forget how Nairo did. I just remember he got really mad XD

the real definition is "players who consistently do very well in tournaments." It's really that simple.

No it isn't. That's a terrible definition. I'm sure you'd agree that Will is a top player but he doesn't consistently do well in tournies because DK sucks. Same goes for Ryo, Shaky and others.
Even with that definition, none of the Snakes I mentioned aren't top players (though I supposed that depends on how lenient you are with the terms 'consistently' and 'very well')
The term 'top player' isn't exactly set in stone; different people have different perceptions of how good players are as well how exclusive they are with the term 'top player', 'performed well', 'consistent', 'skill', etc. I had my definition and it was the basis for my statement about the Snake players. You told me I was insulting people (like seriously wtf) and called me 'horribly wrong' and then proceed to not provide evidence for them being top players, tell me my definition is arbitrary and then throw out words like 'consistently' and 'very well' which are completely arbitrary.

Your criterion of being "capable" of winning a national is nonsense and has no meaning.

-.-

Everyone is "capable" of winning a national. Only three actually have as of recent times.

-.-

Done here.

Oh, the 'getting bored' part was wrt me getting bored of looking up results at large tournies.

 

[ぱみゅ]

"Official BBR Tier List v7 Thread - wrt everything"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's Snake. Are we talking about the same character?

That depends. Are you from the past?

 

[NH Cody]

nope, you said this

Yeah I've been realizing more and more recently how much Ally is an outlier. That said I don't think any other Snakes (not just looking at how they place but the players themselves) can be considered top level players atm, and that isn't just because Ally's way better than the rest.

and blatantly degraded all the other Snakes. Fatal beat Nairo a few months ago in a 40:60 MU but he's not a top player? okay. I already pointed out how many times Fatal gets 1st.

if you deny that 1st isn't clearly the definition of "doing very well" then you're certifiable.


and yeah Otori was giving Nairo the business game 5 (the one that determined the winner). M2K ragequit vs Salem. The point is your rejection of top players who "get bodied" is invalid.

 

[Iota]

Real talk here, I sometimes feel Wario:DDD is like ±1 on any non-FD stage

I feel exactly the same lol. Wario's -2s don't really show as -2s until top level. At high/mid level his -2s are more around 0/-1.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Dude, Quest, seriously, I recommend you take V115 up on his offer. Look him in the eye and tell him you think Fatal/Bizkit/Mikeray/Havok/MVD is capable of doing such a thing.

It's a hard thing to do, and if you can do it then that must mean you really mean what you say. I can't even seriously look that guy in the eye while saying "boners" and using Rollout. And I'm pretty ****ing committed to boners and Rollout.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pidge best troll NA

 

[pidgezero_one]

Not even trolling brah. I switched to Puff.

 

[infiniteV115]

I agree, I did say all of this:

Yeah I've been realizing more and more recently how much Ally is an outlier. That said I don't think any other Snakes (not just looking at how they place but the players themselves) can be considered top level players atm, and that isn't just because Ally's way better than the rest.

I don't think that counts as picking fights/firing shots though XD

Fatal beat Nairo once recently, yeah. He also lost their next encounter.
Same goes for against Vinnie. I hear his overall record against Vinnie is like 13-2 or some **** but I've only seen them play twice recently, with those 2 sets going 1-1. All the other wins could be very old.

He's also gotten 2-0'd by JBand's DDD and Tin Man's Olimar. So much for that whole 'consistently doing very well' thing, right?

I already pointed out how many times Fatal gets 1st.if you deny that 1st isn't clearly the definition of "doing very well" then you're certifiable.

So this falls under the 'consistency' criterion, sure. Falling under "very well"? That's debatable.
Getting first at a large tournament like Apex/SKTAR/SRT, or even a local in NJ/NY with all of their big names (or maybe a local in Japan with a bunch of big names) definitely fall under 'very well'.
Winning locals in NE? I wouldn't say so. Definitely a good performance, falls under 'well', not trying to insult the NE players cause I think (their better ones anyway. Fatal Koolaid BC Bizkit MikeRay Pelca) are definitely high-level players, but not exactly the creme-of-the-crop.

Btw I know the next part of yours that I'm going to quote is referring to this so I'll clarify

unless you get absolutely bodied by a few others at the top, because top players tend to go back and forth with a few exceptions

This statement is fairly ambiguous because of the word 'get'. What I meant was that they consistently/habitually 'get bodied', not a one-time occurrence. ie the difference between "Do you get bodied by M2K?" and "Did you get bodied by M2K?"
So yeah I can't completely blame you for misinterpreting that because of the wording but I hope now you know what I meant.

and yeah Otori was giving Nairo the business game 5 (the one that determined the winner). M2K ragequit vs Salem.

Taking the person who's possibly the best/2nd best MK in the world and arguably top 5 players in the world to game 5?
Doesn't sound like getting 'bodied' to me. Even if he was getting 'bodied' one game, he also managed to win 2 games.
M2K is 2-3 with Salem atm. Sure, he ragequit in their last set (Rescue 2 iirc) but he also managed to 3-1 and then 3-0 Salem in WFs and GFs of Winter Brawl.

In total games, he's gotten 2-3'd twice, won 3-1 and then 3-0, and then lost 1-2 iirc. So he's 11-9 with Salem in games if I'm not mistaken XD

 

[NH Cody]

well I just played Fatal last weekend and he is definitely still improving... He's better than he was when he lost to Jbandrew for sure.

 

[Jmorsch]

I think M2k is 4-3 with salem.
I know he beat him at Sktar, winter brawl(2x) and another tourney that I don't remember pre apex.

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh oops. I was only talking about during Apex and afterwards.
Yeah, M2K 2-1'd him at SKTAR and 2-0'd him again at at least one other tournament. So overall M2K has the winning record, it's just that Salem has improved so much since then (ie at Apex and post-Apex he's pretty much an entirely different player than he was pre-Apex) that nobody really cares about his old results anymore XD

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think M2K sounds like it could be the name of a TV station

 

[NH Cody]

maybe a radio station

 

[infiniteV115]

 

[bubbaking]

Even if snake loses to a mk or pika in winners he'll just beat the other chars the mks put in losers to advance.

You mean the other MKs that the advancing MKs put into losers?

I find TL players don't really mixup the timing with their zairs that much. That's probably the main reason behind it getting PSed so often.

What I find to be really detrimental to the potential unpredictability of TLs' zairs is that they always air dodge beforehand. I understand that TLs want to avoid any possible threats while drifting, but the zair is honestly fast enough to just STUFF most threats anyway.

And at the same time, I can't remember the last time Ally lost to MK before Zero.

Are you kidding me? Ally used to lose to M2K a LOT! I'm pretty sure M2K was one of the major reasons Ally started going more MK than Snake for a large period of time.

No one beats Zero on halberd. If Ally banned it, the set would've probably been slightly different (At least in round counts).

Why does it matter? I'm not sure what stages were legal, but assuming the stagelist was what we usually see in most tourneys nowadays, even if Ally banned Halberd, Zero could just go to Delfino for the 'auto-win'.

 

[infiniteV115]

Maybe a long time ago, but I haven't seen Ally lose to any MKs in 2012/2013 except for Otori at Apex 2012 and ZeRo in 2013. He faced M2K once and Nairo twice at Dissention and didn't lose to either, and faced M2K twice more at Sweet X and didn't lose there either.

Edit: And he went mostly Snake against M2K and Nairo in the sets I mentioned.

 

[bubbaking]

I see...

There, the same stagelist one I used last time I made a MK-legal tournament (except it was Halberd instead of Frigate. If you ban it, where else can MK take you?)

Uh, anywhere else... Being forced to auto-ban a stage is ridiculous when MK still wins on all the other stages. It's like allowing either Brinstar or RC (but not both). Sure, you could just ban the stage, but that doesn't really help your case. You're giving MK a ban with no counter-equivalent.

 

[ぱみゅ]

M2K and Ally are very back-and-forth on their MK-Snake results.

EDIT

I see...


Uh, anywhere else... Being forced to auto-ban a stage is ridiculous when MK still wins on all the other stages. It's like allowing either Brinstar or RC (but not both). Sure, you could just ban the stage, but that doesn't really help your case. You're giving MK a ban with no counter-equivalent.

Final Destination vs ICs.
Your turn.

 

[Seagull Joe]

because pools matter at all? LOL

Kiraflax beat Tearbear in pools but then lost convincingly in bracket. I guess we'd consider them "even" then?

notice how hinkage went 1-2 in bracket, only beating "slikvik", while Havok went way farther and beat FOW. Do you have any idea how hard it is to beat FOW??

Apparently not hard for Havok. Havok went a lot of in bracket so of course he's gonna go farther then if he went solo . That should be plainly obvious.

*facepalm*@The things you say.

So is Quest the new addition to the group of Jebus/Bubba/Gheb?

A worse version of Jebus because he not only posts like him, but also insults those who don't agree with him. He then posts a bunch of "XD" smilies to make it seem like its less serious.

 

[mikeray4]

Ya havok went mainly MK at Apex. Most of his wins were with MK too. He's not really a snake main


And ya Quest, none of us top players. We have lives + get forced to play against each other a nationals (because NJ is high when they seed brackets). Fatal used to be a top doubles player back in the day with his top 4 placings at nationals but in singles he caps out around 7th or 5th at his best. Snake just isn't a character that can win a a tourney solo mained unless he gets a bracket in which he plays against that person's best MUs until the end and then rides the momentum to win GFs. Look at salem he played charcters in which he was strong in the MU against and started riding the momentum at the end. ZSS is still a mid/high tier gimmicky character, but if she doesnt play against Falcos, ICs or any of Salem's personal bad MUs then winning apex does seem like a possibility.

 

[NH Cody]

I heard he went Snake on FOW. Does it make sense to you that FOW would threestock Ally's meta knight but lose to Havok's meta knight?

 

[mikeray4]

I heard he went Snake on FOW. Does it make sense to you that FOW would threestock Ally's meta knight but lose to Havok's meta knight?

Different playstyles, but havok's beaten FOW's ness before with snake. Dat +1 MU

 

[Luco]

Luco literally everything you said is wrong. You didn't even read the conversation cause you said things like "Verm was giving evidence" when he even admitted he was just drawing on "experience". and I already said this. You commented on my comment that 2010 was "before 365 days ago"? Why would you do that? that's exactly what my point was. Verm has no recent experience. There IS no Ganon metagame, so that's why this conversation is pointless and over. Respond to my posts about how it's impossible for Ganon to get in. not that you are deeply familiar with either of these characters. Read and think about what you post before you make yourself look silly.

Okay, work through it one at a time.

1. "experience" is "evidence". How is it not? We value experience when talking about this stuff.

2. As far as I knew, your point was not to bring up stuff from a year ago to call it evidence because the meta has changed since then. Am I right so far? Then you talked about how the meta game has changed from 2010 to 2013. Am I correct in point out the fallacy in that logic?

3. I may not be familiar with the characters but I know how an argument works. You made it seem before as though verm was trying to argue for it to be a positive MU in ganon's favour, which he clearly isn't. You made your point (ganon cannot get in), verm responded with "He has Nair to deal with arrows and the like but he still has to worry about boomerangs." (or something of the sort). Ok. That's when you use that to say "boomerangs and aerials can keep him out from there," etc etc. But I literally saw no continuation of that.

4. Every character has a meta game. Even ganon.

5. Basically, you've given theory and verm's given evidence (how I see it, and don't you read this and reply to it until you've read the parts above). I just feel as though verm has the stronger evidence and even if his matches are outdated, okay, then his point is as good as yours. Go from there. And I wasn't annoyed because you made a bunch of posts that in my eyes seemed riddled with holes, I was annoyed because you abruptly cut the conversation off with "why are we still talking about this horrible character?" which is like M2K or some other dedicated top MK main saying "TL doesn't matter so shut up about him." If you were a TL main in a discussion prior to such a statement, you probably wouldn't like that.

EDIT: Yea I checked, Verm gave a whole bunch of theoretical reasons why it's not impossible for ganon to get in. You responded to that with nothing. Literally. You didn't even quote it.

 

[bubbaking]

Final Destination vs ICs.
Your turn.

And that's why the ICs are dumb. We have to waste a ban on a NEUTRAL just to keep them in check. Don't try to cite one bad instance to make it look like introducing another one is ok. I'm sure there's some wordy term for that kind of logic that relates to debating, but for now, I'll just say that you're trying to use one wrong to say another wrong is okay. It just so happens that anything involving MK is the 'worse wrong'.

 

[ぱみゅ]

bubba, do you SERIOUSLY want to discuss stage(lists) against me?
Please say no so I don't write a long response to that post.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'd just like to point out that even though my experience is "out-dated" I don't consider myself stupid. By that I mean, in all of my years of playing, the character's attributes have remained exactly the same, minus a few new discoveries. The metagame does not reflect the development of a character, but the development of the mentality behind the character, i.e. the intellectual "climate" as it were, wherein you can make reasonably valid guesses as to what your opponent's most viable strategy is. My MU experience may be a year old, but I highly doubt that it'd take less than 3 minutes of playing against certain characters to fully grasp any "metagame advancements."

Even if my TL is experience is year old, I don't think TL has evolved so far as to invalidate any of what I said. He still runs away, throws lots of projectiles and uses NAir and BAir to pressure/combo. Quest, I watched some of your videos from the most recent Mass Madness against Sails, and to be frank, if that's the metagame you're arguing that I am somehow oblivious of, then God help us all, we've become inert. Not to offend you or call your skill into question, as you're a fine TL, but as a point of fact, if that play I saw was a reflection of your argument, then I dare say that my year-old experience is as good as fresh, if not ahead of the game. That is to say, I saw nothing I didn't expect, or didn't know expressly how to handle and have not deftly done so before.

As another side point, if the metagame truly advances so rapidly that all of my MU experience is invalid, then I'd love an explanation as to why I got 5th, beating two of the NW's best players, after 8 months of not playing?

 

[Luco]

Oh kyo's a mod. Grats kyo! ^_^

Sorry, i know that was off-topic. Just realized and... yea...

And I actually think PS2 is totally okay. Until PS1 gets banned I say let it be there. I think it's one of the few occasions where a stage will come in to the ruleset from originally being out of it. That's a pretty momentous occasion, in my eyes at least.