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Official BBR Tier List v7

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infiniteV115

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2 marths in bracket 1 in pools.... I just said that.
Salem's win is well deserved. The problem is when someone wins a tournament that character/person is godlike because they beat all the Mks and only the Mks. What an amazing metagame

That was @ IC's. Their success in apex ruleset is nothing like it is in japanese ruleset


He played 2 Marths 1 wolf and the rest were mks. in Pools his winners finals was a marth. Amazing.
You didn't say 'bracket' at any point in your post wat r u takn about killbillsage
 

Dark.Pch

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People get tired of seeing the same ****. Crossfire tourny matches were boring cause it was mostly MK and IC. lucky for the good people here in NY, we wanted to bring something different for people to see. Thus we brought the hype with Shaky and Mr.E The 2 games they had offline were hype. So we had to get that on stream. Something new, fresh and enjoyable.

This is what this metagame is. And to be honest it's the communitys fault for being so lazy. People go on about MK and all this lame ****, yet no one puts in the work, that seriously work to stop it. And I don't mean practice a match up then go back and try again. I mean sitting your ass down, watching vids, taking notes, exploring ****. Tourny all the time I see people lose and then try to play the same way again over and over. Cause they don't wanna think so hard. If you don't then you can't say a damm think about what happens in tournaments, or make BS excuses for other players.

"Nobody cares about lucas so w/e"

These are the type of words one would say if they really enjoy the way the metagame is. Not caring about Characters below high tier leads to how this game is today. People seriously not sitting down and working hard the correct way lead to snake running a muk on people for years before he was finally figured out.

If this is how it is gonna be, you can't sit here and complain. You can't sit here and make excuses. You can't sit here and demand changes. WTF have you been doing to deserve such a thing? You just rinse and repeat in tournaments over and over and hope for the best. That has not gotten you anywhere. Why keep doing it? it lead to a mess of a metagame we have today. Seriously look at what top three looked like for yesterdays tourny.

And for those reasons the tier list and results that reflect how good character are is BS! Olimar second best? BS! IC that good? BS! Even with these results, that is not gonna set in stone for me how good a character is. Cause again, the way peoplethink and how lazy they are, they let this **** happen. You expect me to think this legit when these players are not working hard for their wins as they should be? That's legit to you people?

But then when you have players like salem that think out the dame box and not like a typical smasher, people make excuses for him as to why he won. And Stuff like this is why people don't get better as they should. Characters like IC, olimar, hell even that fool MK don't get Put down as they should.

Lazy + stubborn + excuse + fear = Current age of brawl.

Enjoy the game you people crated and don't say anything about its faults.
 
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People get tired of seeing the same ****. Crossfire tourny matches were boring cause it was mostly MK and IC. lucky for the good people here in NY, we wanted to bring something different for people to see. Thus we brought the hype with Shaky and Mr.E The 2 games they had offline were hype. So we had to get that on stream. Something new, fresh and enjoyable.

This is what this metagame is. And to be honest it's the communitys fault for being so lazy. People go on about MK and all this lame ****, yet no one puts in the work, that seriously work to stop it. And I don't mean practice a match up then go back and try again. I mean sitting your *** down, watching vids, taking notes, exploring ****. Tourny all the time I see people lose and then try to play the same way again over and over. Cause they don't wanna think so hard. If you don't then you can't say a damm think about what happens in tournaments, or make BS excuses for other players.

"Nobody cares about lucas so w/e"

These are the type of words one would say if they really enjoy the way the metagame is. Not caring about Characters below high tier leads to how this game is today. People seriously not sitting down and working hard the correct way lead to snake running a muk on people for years before he was finally figured out.

If this is how it is gonna be, you can't sit here and complain. You can't sit here and make excuses. You can't sit here and demand changes. WTF have you been doing to deserve such a thing? You just rinse and repeat in tournaments over and over and hope for the best. That has not gotten you anywhere. Why keep doing it? it lead to a mess of a metagame we have today. Seriously look at what top three looked like for yesterdays tourny.

And for those reasons the tier list and results that reflect how good character are is BS! Olimar second best? BS! IC that good? BS! Even with these results, that is not gonna set in stone for me how good a character is. Cause again, the way peoplethink and how lazy they are, they let this **** happen. You expect me to think this legit when these players are not working hard for their wins as they should be? That's legit to you people?

But then when you have players like salem that think out the dame box and not like a typical smasher, people make excuses for him as to why he won. And Stuff like this is why people don't get better as they should. Characters like IC, olimar, hell even that fool MK don't get Put down as they should.

Lazy + stubborn + excuse + fear = Current age of brawl.

Enjoy the game you people crated and don't say anything about its faults.
As a friend: no one is going to read this and you are wasting your time.
 

Dark.Pch

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You wrote all that in response to a trolling remark I made?

Did I do good Stef?
You call that trolling?

And I just used what you said as an example.

As a friend: no one is going to read this and you are wasting your time.
I could careless. You act like this is something new. I say what I want, whoever reads it, cool. Whoever does not, cool. Does not affect me at all.
 

infiniteV115

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Dark.Pch I loved your commentary yesterday but god I hate everything you post on SWF (not the content, but how it's worded and just drones on and on forever)
From now on, all your posts should just be C/P'd from a speech-to-text program, if possible imo
 

Luco

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Oh and luigi(-4) yaa, let me use him in a tournament...then let's see whose the 29th tier, and the fox situation went way downhill sense Melee. 1st tier to 16th tier! D:
You'll see dude. Competitive community has reasons for the placings of their characters, just give it time. It took me ages to see the reasoning behind why my characters weren't in a higher tier so I know how you feel. =)

He also played FAE.

But nobody cares about Lucas so w/e


So v115 will come out in 2120?
It's not quite as exciting or novel once you remember that we'll all be dead and rotting in the ground by the time that comes along. :(

iirc Vinnie says ICs win and Esam says ICs lose.

I'm just going to go with even for now
Heh. Heh, hehehehe. :D

Awesome. =D
 

bubbaking

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Marth isn't real?
Woops! I was thinking about it, but somehow I forgot to put it in. Revised list (;)):

:metaknight:
:marthmelee:
:popo:
:diddy:
:snake:
:zerosuitsamus:
:pit:/:ness:
:olimar:
:dedede:
:falcomelee:

Edit: Actually, now that I've witnessed the continued lack of existence of a Marth icon, I see why I missed him when making my earlier post. I was perusing the APEX 2013 results while making it and not a single Marth icon was in sight. :p

Edit 2: For that very same reason, I missed Falco! :facepalm:

Shaky also tied Earth btw.
Wouldn't make sense for Oli to be below Pit cause Oli got 7th, 25th and below whereas Ness/Pit got only 25th and below.
Also ZSS > Snake cause solo mains at 1st and 25th (and every placing below 25th) > non-solo mains at 13th and 17th and then solo mains only at 33rd or lower.
Also what DeLux said.
Dabuz was an outlier. If you know statistics, you shouldn't include outliers in the average of all the important data, or at least they shouldn't be given as much weight. Therefore, COLLECTIVELY (read: 'overall'), Pit did better than Olimar. For this very same reason, I am holding back from placing ZSS above Snake, although I understand perfectly what you are saying (and I agree somewhat). Ness has been edited in. :bee:
 

infiniteV115

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Therefore, COLLECTIVELY (read: 'overall'), Pit did better than Olimar.
1 solo Pit at 25th
1 non-solo Pit at 33rd
1 non-solo Pit at 65th
1 solo Pit at 97th

vs

1 solo Oli at 7th (apparently outlier)
1 solo Oli at 25th
2 solo and 1 non-solo Olis at 33rd
1 solo Oli at 49th
1 solo Oli at 65th
1 solo Oli at 97th
EVEN THOUGH there were 2 instances in bracket of 1 Oli player having to defeat another Oli player (Asa beating Tin Man first round, Dabuz knocking Denti out of losers')

And also lol @ Shaky not being an outlier when there were only 2 in the whole bracket. Him at 25th and a non-solo Ness (Red X) at 97th. That's literally the same difference between Denti's and Dabuz' placings (25th-97th vs 9th-25th, both 4 rounds apart)
 

bubbaking

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>Tells not to include outliers
>puts Pit and Ness above Olimar
You're trolling, right? There's only one Ness main that matters anymore. The same goes for Pit, lolz! If ESAM had gotten his current placing going solo-Pika, I'd have put Pika up at that #3 spot in a heartbeat. You literally CAN'T have outliers when there are only one or two pieces of data.

#Lrn2Statistic

1 solo Pit at 25th
1 non-solo Pit at 33rd
1 non-solo Pit at 65th
1 solo Pit at 97th

vs

1 solo Oli at 7th (apparently outlier)
1 solo Oli at 25th
2 solo and 1 non-solo Olis at 33rd
1 solo Oli at 49th
1 solo Oli at 65th
1 solo Oli at 97th
EVEN THOUGH there were 2 instances in bracket of 1 Oli player having to defeat another Oli player (Asa beating Tin Man first round, Dabuz knocking Denti out of losers')
First off, I ONLY looked at the current top players of characters. Why would you even consider any Pit that wasn't Earth, lolz? Secondly, I honestly didn't look very far past 33rd (largely for the very reason I just stated). If I did, ZSS would have been a LOT lower because of your own placing all the way at 97th (in addition to those of all the other non-top ZSS mains, such as DRN and Quick). The entire APEX bracket was 'stacked' but I believe only the top 48 had any semblance of current 'top players' worth considering. That's what I mean by "collective". :seuss:

If the top Olis honestly couldn't semi-consistently (read: more than once so that the best one isn't considered as an outlier) place above Earth, the only top Pit, despite there being SO MANY OF THEM by comparison, then yes, they collectively did worse. :smash:

And also lol @ Shaky not being an outlier when there were only 2 in the whole bracket. Him at 25th and a non-solo Ness (Red X) at 97th. That's literally the same difference between Denti's and Dabuz' placings (25th-97th vs 9th-25th, both 4 rounds apart)
As I said above to Kyokoro, by definition, you CAN'T have an outlier when there are only two pieces of data, much less when only one of them matters. Red X was never a top-level Ness (he was definitely a top 5 one, though) and he doesn't even go 70% Ness anymore. He goes a LOT of MK.
 

pidgezero_one

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Red X's later pools matches were solo MK and he forfeited bracket... if he used ness it was in like, round 1 of his pool :c

my heart is breaking
 

bubbaking

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OK, so he didn't even go for a notable length of time as Ness, let alone mostly Ness. As that lady in the Progressive commercial would say, "These are troubling times in the kingdom." :smash: Brace yourselves. :smirk:

Yeah we ****ed up. From what I know even if ally went other characters they didn't bring him much success.
Fow 3stocked him game 1 in the mk ditto and he won that set with snake. I don't know how his set with pwii went but I know it was really close. Lost to Dabuz as MK as well.... Not ally's best day.
Wait a sec... If Pwii beat or almost beat Ally (on top of other players he's beaten at various times), why isn't he considered a top MK? This question is directed at V115 and everyone else who told me that Pwii isn't a top MK when I brought him up earlier. It doesn't even matter whether he beat Ally's Snake or his MK, because he's a top player for BOTH. At one point, people were even willing to believe that he was the best MK in NA, even over M2K. Even now, he's a top 4 or 5 MK, which is equivalent to or better than, like, the top 2 or 3 of any other character.

This is horribly wrong and you should feel bad for saying it. You're insulting a lot of legit snake mains.
How is saying a high-level player isn't the BEST insulting? You don't have to be top-level to be "legit".
V115, you're not a top-level ZSS. You're not even legit. You're just a phony! Are you mad yet? :troll:
I am not sure how to weight ESAM's ICs results, as he uses Pikachu much more than them.
Ehhh, not really, and he loses a lot of his matches as Pika in sets that he wins with mostly ICs. I'd say he goes about an equal, even amount of both. He would probably be capable of doing just as well as he's been doing, even if he put all of his time into only one or the other.
The Real Tier List

SSSAMAZING Tier: Meta Knight
A Single Character Main wins tournaments tier: Olimar, Marth, Zero Suit, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong (any order)
B****es and *****s who generally use a secondary or aren't gud enuff tier: Falco, Snake, Pikachu, Wario, Lucario (any order)
:75M:
You should probably have DDD and TL in that 'B' Tier, mostly DDD (read: definitely DDD). Vex got really far with mostly DDD, using G&W only as a secondary in stupid MUs like ICs (after trying it out with DDD, first). Atomsk and Seibrk both regularly get far moderating their DDDs with MK and/or Wario (lolz, just MK).

wins one tournament

zss now wins all the tournaments
Shaya never said ZSS or ANY of the the 'A' Tier chars win or have to win "all the tournaments". The very fact that ZSS won Apex 2013 makes her automatically eligible for that tier. Snake will never be on that level. Stay salty, son. :smash:
Besides, you were just blatantly wrong. You said:
Olimar doesn't win tournaments. Neither does marth or zss or ics in the apex ruleset.
Like, come on now! :facepalm:
Apex doesn't count because zss won and my preconceived notion says it shouldn't have happened
Even with an Apex ruleset? :smirk:
 

Dekillsage

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The apex ruleset was directed @ Ic's, no one else.
aka "or ics in the apex ruleset". Was too lazy to spell it out for every1.
Snake will never be on that level? Except he was dominate until late 2010, and he only started not doing well recently. If there were snake mains that were on the level of Esam or anti in my region he would always be in the top 4.

And no pwii is not a top mk. Almost beating someone is not the same as winning. We all "almost" beat people, but that doesn't advance you in bracket. Still a really solid player though
 

bubbaking

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You never said he didn't beat Ally. You said you didn't know the result, but the set was close (and I was too lazy to check the bracket). Also, how is Pwii not a top MK when he placed so highly in bracket? He won a LOT of rounds. Dude made it so far that he only got knocked out from losing to Ally twice.

Edit: Tyrant and Kakera are often both regarded as top MKs and Pwii tied with both of them.

Edit 2: The man also beat Atomsk (after beating a bunch of good players) right before losing to Ally.

To be fair, not even MK "won all".
He probably did on NJ/NY, but because M2K-Anti-Nairo-Zero.

Which other regions were that extremely dominated by him?
(Honest question, give me good arguments and I'll stand corrected)
I believe Zero is from SA not NA, let alone NY/NJ. He's only in NY/NJ/PA over some school break, or something like that. Anyway, even in NY/NJ, we aren't "dominated" by MK. Extend that phrase to include the ICs (Vinnie) and Olimar (Dabuz) and you'll be correct.


I don't even consider Nick Riddle a top level player and he outplaced all the solo Snakes at Apex using a worse character.
I disagree with you here. He's been getting placements worthy of a top player since 2010, dude. <__<
 

infiniteV115

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I don't remember specifically saying he wasn't a top player but it's possible, I was talking about him quite a bit right before Apex cause I knew he was in my pool.
Let's see, in bracket he beat Nekokatsu, lost to Ally, beat KiraFlax, Jband, Xzax and Atomsk and then lost to Ally again.

Definitely good wins (especially Atomsk) and placing 17th at Apex is definitely not easy, but I still dunno about calling him 'top-level'.

I definitely underrated him before Apex though, that's for sure XD
 

bubbaking

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Canada's more than just 1 region you know
In the same way that the US is more than just 1 region
Our country is like 1.5x the size of your country after all
...Whoa what. According to wiki it's barely bigger. That's weird.
Alaska takes up a LOT of space, and it belongs to the US, not Canada. :smirk: It's the USA's largest state by far (more than 2.5 times larger than the 2nd largest state, Texas). Wiki might also be considering all of the USA's territories as well, which really expands our size to quite monstrous proportions.

You know what character gets truly carried by individual players? Marth. Take away Mikeneko and a good 2/3rd of Marth's achievements are gone. The rest is one good placing at a national [Ramin @7th] and some regional top5 placings by MH.
This happens to most Top Tier chars (which in turn probably means most chars in general), actually. Take away Vinnie and you've probably removed half of all the achievements ever attained by solo ICs activity. Take away DEHF and now who's been winning tournaments with Falco? :smash:

I don't see how the results clearly indicate that the matchup is +2 for Pikachu.

:059:
Um, the only Pika that matters defeats practically every top/high Snake he ever encounters. Gheb, as I said in the post you replied to, you're a 'results man'. You even managed to convert me to your way of seeing things a while ago. Please tell me how these results don't strongly suggest a +2 in Pika's favor.

Now, once we admit that Pika possibly +2's Snake, we suddenly admit that Snake is almost incapable of solo winning legitimate large tourneys anymore. For instance, the chance of ESAM being at said large tourney and pushing his way through the bracket to the higher placings in a manner that causes him to brush with most of the Snake contenders is actually quite high. Factor in all the MKs and those stellar Olis and Falcos and those couple of DDDs who are actually very good at the MU and your chances of winning anything notable plummets.
 

bubbaking

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Too bad Freekachu bodies Flaky Snake. :p

... Why...? o.O
Because no extremely good character (what wearing the #2 headband entails) fails to have the advantage against DDD. All of A Tier backs this up. The only char who doesn't is the one who quite possibly may not belong there.

DDD may just be a tier barrier in more ways than one..... :evil:

because pools matter at all? LOL

Kiraflax beat Tearbear in pools but then lost convincingly in bracket. I guess we'd consider them "even" then?

notice how hinkage went 1-2 in bracket, only beating "slikvik", while Havok went way farther and beat FOW. Do you have any idea how hard it is to beat FOW?? You're a fool if you think his loss in pools means anything xD
Pools don't matter? You're an idiot. A win in pools is just as notable as a win in bracket. The pools is basically just an extension of the bracket in a different format. If Kira beat Tearbear in pools but lost to him in bracket, then yes, they are even in sets for that tourney (unless they had MMs or 'seriouslies'). Tearbear probably downloaded him while losing to him in pools (which would make the pools set MORE important than the bracket one). Why oh WHY are you touting around how "hard it is to beat FOW" as a reason that Hinkage's win on him in pools is less significant than Havok's win on him in bracket. Please.....just shut up about this specific topic. :facepalm:

CT Zero? Anti? Trela? DEHF? Dabuz? Forget them, V115 says you all are way far from top level! step it up, yall! You guys aren't good enough for V115.
Trela's not top level, at least not anymore. Either 'top level' has moved on without him or he's dropped the ball, but he's no longer top level (didn't he retire a WHILE ago?). There hasn't been a top-level Lucario (different from 'top Lucario') for some time now. :smash:

It's quite funny that you said THIS to Luco:
Read and think about what you post before you make yourself look silly.
After stating the very things you did above. :c
 

~ Gheb ~

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This happens to most Top Tier chars (which in turn probably means most chars in general), actually. Take away Vinnie and you've probably removed half of all the achievements ever attained by solo ICs activity. Take away DEHF and now who's been winning tournaments with Falco?
1.) Actually, the only top tier character to whom that logic somewhat applies to is Diddy Kong. From 2010 to now Snake, Olimar, MK and Ice Climbers all had a good 4 players who at one point brought in huge results. You could remove the most accomplished player from each character and would still end up with amazing wins / records from the 3+ other players those characters have.

2.) You're way off @ICs. 9B's achievements are easily comparable to Vinnie's, as used to be kakera's [who's still the most overlooked ICs player ever] and recently Nakat has started to take big names with ICs too [beating M2K, Anti and Nairo with ICs within the last two weeks]. Even if you took Vinnie's achievements away completely the results of ICs would still be better than Marth's.

3.) "Winning tournaments" is not required to make a player top level or to give a character a good chunk of top level results. Some of the best players with major achievements have not won tourneys that are above local medium-sized regional tourneys. Most characters don't win tourneys. How much winning a tourney truly matters depends on a lot of factors because luck can play a major role and often does. Going by records against other players is more accurate and helpful to determine a player's achievements.

4.) In case of Falco you could take away DEHF's results and still end up with Masha's winning record against M2K, kakera and Brood for example. Falco's results without DEHF are better than Marth's results without Mikeneko for sure. Mikeneko brings in more than 50% of Marth's best wins, in DEHF's case I'd estimate it to be 30%-35% [Masha and SLS sharing the rest of the cake]. Most people probably can't fathom just how much Mikeneko is doing for that character's metagame right now. I personally think Ramin's best play isn't that far off but he just doesn't get a chance to bring in the same results as Mikeneko does.

Um, the only Pika that matters defeats practically every top/high Snake he ever encounters.
And precisely for that reason the results cannot be taken at face value. If you only took Rain's record against Marth then MK vs Marth would be between +3 and +4 for MK but that'd be stupid because you'd use an incredibly thin basis for your evidence. If there were two or three Pikachu players that generally beat Snake players consistently it'd be a different story. But there's only one Pikachu player and it's a fact that he is an outlier in every way imaginable. The results are tied too much to his outlier status as a player and thus claiming there to be a distinction between +1 and +2 based on results is purely speculative.

:059:
 

bubbaking

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Yeah, but ESAM's been doing this for years. This is one exception where he's just been doing the same thing for far too long for us to be attributing it to his 'outlier' status. I came on here in 2010 and made these arguments regarding Pika:Snake and was given these same exact answers (some of them from you, btw :p). I'm a little disappointed that people are clinging to this so long after that time. The very moment people started labelling him as an outlier, they should have been watching him and his matches VERY closely to see just what was going on in the MU so that outlier status didn't 'stick', at least not in any way other than the fact that he's the only Pika main that matters. You can only hide your laziness for so long, man. :ohwell: We can't hold up a display of Pika's metagame advancement just because other players don't have the balls/brains to actually do work with the char. :smash:

1.) Actually, the only top tier character to whom that logic somewhat applies to is Diddy Kong. From 2010 to now Snake, Olimar, MK and Ice Climbers all had a good 4 players who at one point brought in huge results. You could remove the most accomplished player from each character and would still end up with amazing wins / records from the 3+ other players those characters have.
What about all those other Top Tier characters? :confused:

Trela doesn't play a char that's viable as a solo-main (imo)
I know that was your opinion, but this thread's main purpose is to discuss opinions, and I think your opinion is wrong. Lucario is like a 'ZSS Mark Half'. He has almost no disadvantages worse than a slight one. He's 'Mark Half' because he loses to MK more than a little.

This thread is making my head hurt. :sadsheep:




Pocket Marths are not gonna beat good Warios. Wario is actually really good at fighting his -2s believe it or not. :happysheep:
This might hold true for MK and Marth, but it definitely doesn't hold for arguably his hardest -2, DDD. DDD's bair outranges all of Wario's aerial moveset, and lolgrab, so we beat Wario both in the air and on the ground, despite this MU being a heavily ground-based char against an extremely aerial-based char. If you're good enough with your timing, you should never be lacking a kill move due to staling. Grab release combos into fair, bair, usmash, and utilt. :smash: GOOD 'pocket DDDs' will probably beat good Warios, because how much is there for you to learn about this MU? As long as you can CG, bair when you're supposed to, and mash the C-stick, you're home-free. :smirk:
 

Kewkky

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Outliers shouldn't matter in statistics. However, bubbaking, I think you've got the term "outlier" wrong. One player winning one tournament and then never again is an outlier, while one player doing great consistently when the others aren't is not.

Just saying.
 

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D3 is only our hardest -2 on the super conservative japanese ruleset. D3's bair is very linear, making it pretty easy to get past. If you think Bair outranging our entire aerial moveset merits it the ability to beat us in the air then I guess characters like Kirby, Rob, GW, etc. beat us too. :happysheep:
 

Crackle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
497
Location
UCLA
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ZZZobac
Dark Pch I read your post and it was the most worthwhile thing on this page in particular. Seriously, people giving up on characters so fast unless suddenly the character wins a tournament is silly. Make your own dream come true guys, get some frame data in your play.

Everyone else be arguing about the definition of outlier, seriously what is this the bickerboards.

Meaningful topic:
What comes to mind for you guys when you think of undervalued in the tier list?
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
Location
TX
bad MK matchup=no shot

call Salem's bracket lucky, but MK is everywhere and even if ROB and Toon Link and Wario do better against Falco/ICs or whatever, MK is the biggest deal.

I'd say Fox is probably more viable than ROB, Toon Link and Wario tbh.
 
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