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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
NH Cody
Smash Champion
I asked to clarify: are you saying you think marth should not be in top tier?
He's Canadian. Creme is French for Cream.This is seriously pissing me off...
bubbaking
Smash Hero
That's not an excuse. Do you guys live in French Canada a.k.a. Quebec? 
Random fact: I did.
How many of them actually win their sets with him? Ftr, Reflex once said on here that he actually feels like Wario:DDD is actually a -3 and that it is easier for DDD than Wolf:DDD. 4GOD, Coney, and Seagull came on here and stated otherwise, though. Still, the point is made. DDD is one -2 you don't really see Warios just 'getting away' with. I feel like even 'solid' pocket DDDs could really trouble/beat good Warios, especially since top-level pockets are usually still pretty darn good (see: ESAM's and Nairo's DKs, every top-level player's MK, Dabuz's Pit, Jbandrew's Luigi, NinjaLink's BUNCH of chars, etc).
Random fact: I did.
What top Warios other than Reflex actually use him in -2 MUs?I feel exactly the same lol. Wario's -2s don't really show as -2s until top level. At high/mid level his -2s are more around 0/-1.
How many of them actually win their sets with him? Ftr, Reflex once said on here that he actually feels like Wario:DDD is actually a -3 and that it is easier for DDD than Wolf:DDD. 4GOD, Coney, and Seagull came on here and stated otherwise, though. Still, the point is made. DDD is one -2 you don't really see Warios just 'getting away' with. I feel like even 'solid' pocket DDDs could really trouble/beat good Warios, especially since top-level pockets are usually still pretty darn good (see: ESAM's and Nairo's DKs, every top-level player's MK, Dabuz's Pit, Jbandrew's Luigi, NinjaLink's BUNCH of chars, etc). 
blacktwins13
Smash Journeyman
1st off: thank you for the compliment : )What top Warios other than Reflex actually use him in -2 MUs?
2nd: for your wario players beating ddd's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP_95WHv8bY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJOQeVniXPQ
Iota
Smash Lord
I feel that Reflex is one of the most pessimistic persons when it comes to the D3 vs Wario MU, with Waymas being on the opposite side of the spectrum. The only top level Wario that uses other characters in MUs is Abadango, and he still tries to use Wario at first for MK, Marth, etc. from what I've seen on youtube. Most of the high level Warios (Croi, Jnig, etc.) also use Wario in the -2 MUs. Good pocket D3s are not very common, but people who try to pull him out of their ass to try and gay Wario more often lose than not. (e.g. Waymas vs Kingtoon, Reflex and myself vs Seagull). When a Wario loses to a D3, it's usually the main of the player.
Do not list Dabuz's pit when considering top level player's high level pockets. Jband's Luigi is not a pocket, it's one of his mains iirc.
Do not list Dabuz's pit when considering top level player's high level pockets. Jband's Luigi is not a pocket, it's one of his mains iirc.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Who do you main again, Blacktwins?
What the heck? Kingtoon's not a "good DDD". The dude's only "good" character is TL. HIs DDD's not even a pocket char. It just.....kinda sucks. Btw, I meant how many Warios win their entire sets going Wario vs only chars that -2 them. In KT's set against Waymas, he went TL half the time, which is not nearly as bad of a MU for Wario. All of those things kinda invalidate that set as evidence. Didn't see the second vid, though...
Edit: The man also played really 'scared' for the entire match, which I guess was a trait carried over from his TL habits. He passed up really open and obvious grab opportunities. Heck, he b-rolled away from a shielding Wario. That's not proof of anything. A somewhat competent pocket DDD will at least try to grab at everything he can't bair.
Edit 2: Loooolz! He even went for dthrow > ftilt (which he missed) over the grab-release. Even the worst actual DDD in that MU knows about the free damage and is good enough at slamming the C-stick to actually do it.
What the heck? Kingtoon's not a "good DDD". The dude's only "good" character is TL. HIs DDD's not even a pocket char. It just.....kinda sucks. Btw, I meant how many Warios win their entire sets going Wario vs only chars that -2 them. In KT's set against Waymas, he went TL half the time, which is not nearly as bad of a MU for Wario. All of those things kinda invalidate that set as evidence. Didn't see the second vid, though...
Edit: The man also played really 'scared' for the entire match, which I guess was a trait carried over from his TL habits. He passed up really open and obvious grab opportunities. Heck, he b-rolled away from a shielding Wario. That's not proof of anything. A somewhat competent pocket DDD will at least try to grab at everything he can't bair.
Edit 2: Loooolz! He even went for dthrow > ftilt (which he missed) over the grab-release. Even the worst actual DDD in that MU knows about the free damage and is good enough at slamming the C-stick to actually do it.
Iota
Smash Lord
The 2nd video was Gluttony beating Atomsk in a 3/5 or 4/7 money match. There are next to no pocket D3s that are capable of beating Warios outside of like Ally who have actually bothered to play him instead of MK. Most players just use pocket/secondary MKs to beat Wario.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
You should probably read bubba
He never said kingtoon was a good ddd
He never said kingtoon was a good ddd
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Dekillsage can't read.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
but people who try to pull him out of their *** to try and gay Wario more often lose than not.
^
@gluttony vs atomsk is interesting. Shows how the match up goes if they both play aggressively. Neither have to play that way though, and a patient ddd is sounds broken vs wario....
^
@gluttony vs atomsk is interesting. Shows how the match up goes if they both play aggressively. Neither have to play that way though, and a patient ddd is sounds broken vs wario....
NH Cody
Smash Champion
well how can he not be top tier when his only disadvantageous MUs are MK, Snake, and maybe ROB? He beats a majority of the cast.
Iota
Smash Lord
A patient D3 can be very, very frustrating to fight. Bike and tire stuff can make it easier to approach through depending on the stage.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Kingtoon didn't even try to "gay" Wario, though. He just sucked really hard.
For example, he grabbed Wario RIGHT at the ledge. Obviously, no dthrow follow-up was possible. This is the optimal time to GR Wario into something "gay". What did KT do? He tried to go for some dthrow > dair offstage jank which just failed miserably.
For example, he grabbed Wario RIGHT at the ledge. Obviously, no dthrow follow-up was possible. This is the optimal time to GR Wario into something "gay". What did KT do? He tried to go for some dthrow > dair offstage jank which just failed miserably.
Marth loses to DDD. I don't think anyone really questions this.
Iota
Smash Lord
Dude, Bubba. Nobody is arguing that KT didn't do bad. Him doing bad was the whole point of me listing him as an example of a failed attempt to try to beat Wario with a pocket.
The only person who called D3's KT good was BT.
The only person who called D3's KT good was BT.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
"D3's KT". I like that.
I said that the pocket's have to be 'solid'. You can't just pull out a character you've never used before in a MU you've never played and expect to do well at all. Even I'm not contending that.
I said that the pocket's have to be 'solid'. You can't just pull out a character you've never used before in a MU you've never played and expect to do well at all. Even I'm not contending that.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
+ ddd like bubba said
Marth has a really good match up spread
Waymas did this to me (snake vs wario) on the smashville platform. NEVER letting wario take me there again. It was so lame xDA patient D3 can be very, very frustrating to fight. Bike and tire stuff can make it easier to approach through depending on the stage.
Iota
Smash Lord
KT actually uses D3 a lot for the Wario MU. It's not an MU he's never played at all. I do think he played worse that match than he should've.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
nope it's even.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I see. Well he definitely could have fooled me, getting 3-stocked like that.....
I'll check out that Atomsk set now.
I'll check out that Atomsk set now.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Welp can't argue with that
marth for top tier -_^b
NH Cody
Smash Champion
glad you have seen the light.
Marth loses to Snake? I don't know what you base this on but Marth loses to MK, to ICs, to DDD and to ROB. The best character he wins against is Wario, which I think isn't anyting special considering Wario himself doesn't really beat any top or high tier character. Wario and TL are the only "official" top/high tier characters Marth has an advantage against. In addition to that he has pretty even to slightly disadvantaged records against Kirby, Pit and Sonic so it's gonna be hard to claim that he beats the majority of the cast, let alone to the same extent Olimar or Falco do. Marth is a very solid character, who is never a truly bad choice in any matchup and he can make it very far in the hands of a genius player like Mikeneko. But I don't think he can legitimately be called a "top tier" character, unless you're going to call MK, IC and whomever else you believe to be better than Marth "super top tier" or something like that. Marth is a solid high tier character.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Yeah marth loses to snake -1
Not that big of a deal lol
Not that big of a deal lol
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Guuuuuuuyyyys, in the 1st Atomsk vs Gluttony match, Atomsk missed the very first CG. He didn't even get one rep off. Then the next time he grabbed him, he totally missed the GR. He went for fair when usmash is perfectly fine and easy and requires absolutely NO timing at all. Then he upB'd on-stage for no reason. That got farted on, causing him to lose his first stock. Come on, he was clearly playing extremely sloppily. Still watching, though. Just thought I'd mention that.
Still watching, though. Just thought I'd mention that.NH Cody
Smash Champion
He definitely doesn't lose to ICs. I wrote about this earlier in the thread. it's an even MU. Marth's air camping is really safe vs ICs. but he could mess up and that's what reduces it to even.
Pierce could explain why DDD is easy to fight. he has a few good posts on this. CJ or Shaya or someone, help. lol. I would say it's mostly because of the juggling.
Snake I think is disadvantageous from experience. but... maybe it's just the one character I have a LOT of trouble against.
Pierce could explain why DDD is easy to fight. he has a few good posts on this. CJ or Shaya or someone, help. lol. I would say it's mostly because of the juggling.
Snake I think is disadvantageous from experience. but... maybe it's just the one character I have a LOT of trouble against.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
DDD definitely beats Marth, lolz.
Atomsk still dominated the first match, but he dropped no less than two CGs and two GRs. Definitely not on the top of his game, but meh...
Atomsk still dominated the first match, but he dropped no less than two CGs and two GRs. Definitely not on the top of his game, but meh...
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Pause.....
bubbaking
Smash Hero
There should be an orgasm smiley on SWF.
In each match that Atomsk lost, he missed no less than two (usually more) GRs that didn't involve the SV plat, most of them at kill %'s. Those GRs are mad easy, too. Was he half-asleep or something?
The funny thing is that I actually considered Fatal to be a top-level player a short while ago. Then I remembered that incident and changed my mind. Fatal also had/lost close games with my Oli main friend, DarkPkmn, and John12346. Yeah, he's not top-level, lolz! 
In each match that Atomsk lost, he missed no less than two (usually more) GRs that didn't involve the SV plat, most of them at kill %'s. Those GRs are mad easy, too. Was he half-asleep or something?
Let the call-outs begin. Any player who gets taken by me to last-stock, high %'s while playing his main (in an even MU, no less) does not deserve to call himself a top-level player. This is one of those Minty-level call-outs.
The funny thing is that I actually considered Fatal to be a top-level player a short while ago. Then I remembered that incident and changed my mind. Fatal also had/lost close games with my Oli main friend, DarkPkmn, and John12346. Yeah, he's not top-level, lolz! I started to really like this post.....until I got to the latter half of it.Ya havok went mainly MK at Apex. Most of his wins were with MK too. He's not really a snake main
And ya Quest, none of us top players. We have lives + get forced to play against each other a nationals (because NJ is high when they seed brackets). Fatal used to be a top doubles player back in the day with his top 4 placings at nationals but in singles he caps out around 7th or 5th at his best. Snake just isn't a character that can win a a tourney solo mained unless he gets a bracket in which he plays against that person's best MUs until the end and then rides the momentum to win GFs. Look at salem he played charcters in which he was strong in the MU against and started riding the momentum at the end. ZSS is still a mid/high tier gimmicky character, but if she doesnt play against Falcos, ICs or any of Salem's personal bad MUs then winning apex does seem like a possibility.
blacktwins13
Smash Journeyman
do you want the whole variety, or the consistencyWho do you main again, Blacktwins?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Both?
10boths
10boths
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
That's not funny and you should be ashamed for posting that."D3's KT". I like that.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Who said it was funny? Why did you assume that it was anything other than corroboration of the fact that The King rules all.
Why did you assume that it was anything other than corroboration of the fact that The King rules all. PS2 is more radical than PS1. You will never be able to argue otherwise. PS2 brings in physics changes and increased trip rates while PS1 does not. You can say that PS2 shouldn't be legal if PS1 isn't legal, but you can't state the converse.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
Fatal's a top player when he wants to be.
He does fine but loses/almost loses to the weirdest people sometimes
He does fine but loses/almost loses to the weirdest people sometimes
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I think Raptor said the same thing about Trouble/Problem (I always forget which his tag is ) wrt to him being a high-level Snake.
) wrt to him being a high-level Snake.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
PS2 is fine.
Quest, by your own definition of 'top player' you said that a top player consistently performs very well. I already pointed out why this isn't the case with Fatal and the fact that you decide to use that definition then basically say "Yo man wtf Fatal beat Nairo once how the **** is he not a top player" is absurd.
Quest, by your own definition of 'top player' you said that a top player consistently performs very well. I already pointed out why this isn't the case with Fatal and the fact that you decide to use that definition then basically say "Yo man wtf Fatal beat Nairo once how the **** is he not a top player" is absurd.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
PS2 is not fine.
What are "RL tourneys"?Lets also not forget that smashboards isn't the only place you get every main and that places such as aib and even RL tournies see success as well.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
'real life' tournies I think.
What's wrong with PS2? I don't see why physics changes make it banworthy, and the 1% increase on tripping on the ice transformation is negligible (tripping on the side platforms of the 2nd transformation of Frigate is a much bigger problem). Sure, it can promote camping in the same way PS1 does but I think the stage does more good than harm.
What's wrong with PS2? I don't see why physics changes make it banworthy, and the 1% increase on tripping on the ice transformation is negligible (tripping on the side platforms of the 2nd transformation of Frigate is a much bigger problem). Sure, it can promote camping in the same way PS1 does but I think the stage does more good than harm.
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