Official BBR Tier List v7

[blacktwins13]

Both?
10boths

Primary mains: Yoshi>IC'S>Lucas>Mario>TL>Fox>Luigi
Secondary mains: MK>Peach<Falco>Marth>Ness>Kirby>Oli>G&W>ZSS>Pika
Tertiary mains: Rest of the cast that i don't use (smirk)

 

[Dekillsage]

I think Raptor said the same thing about Trouble/Problem (I always forget which his tag is ) wrt to him being a high-level Snake.

nothing about problem lead me to believe he was a high level snake. Maybe LI just knows how good he is @ his best

 

[NH Cody]

PS2 is fine.

Quest, by your own definition of 'top player' you said that a top player consistently performs very well. I already pointed out why this isn't the case with Fatal and the fact that you decide to use that definition then basically say "Yo man wtf Fatal beat Nairo once how the **** is he not a top player" is absurd.

o.o why are you bringing this conversation up from like 20 years ago

and why are you straw manning my argument...Fatal beating Nairo was only a contributing factor.

 

[bubbaking]

It was practically yesterday!

Secondary mains: MK>Peach<Falco>Marth>Ness>Kirby>Oli>G&W>ZSS>Pika

Is there a reason you have your arrows set up that way?

 

[blacktwins13]

'real life' tournies I think.

What's wrong with PS2? Sure, it can promote camping in the same way PS1 does but I think the stage does more harm than good.

don't bother trying to spike yoshi on air transformation then

 

[pidgezero_one]

Marth loses to Snake? I don't know what you base this on but Marth loses to MK, to ICs, to DDD and to ROB. The best character he wins against is Wario, which I think isn't anyting special considering Wario himself doesn't really beat any top or high tier character. Wario and TL are the only "official" top/high tier characters Marth has an advantage against. In addition to that he has pretty even to slightly disadvantaged records against Kirby, Pit and Sonic so it's gonna be hard to claim that he beats the majority of the cast, let alone to the same extent Olimar or Falco do. Marth is a very solid character, who is never a truly bad choice in any matchup and he can make it very far in the hands of a genius player like Mikeneko. But I don't think he can legitimately be called a "top tier" character, unless you're going to call MK, IC and whomever else you believe to be better than Marth "super top tier" or something like that. Marth is a solid high tier character.

Gheb, this is literally you right now.

 

[bubbaking]

What's wrong with PS2? I don't see why physics changes make it banworthy, and the 1% increase on tripping on the ice transformation is negligible (tripping on the side platforms of the 2nd transformation of Frigate is a much bigger problem). Sure, it can promote camping in the same way PS1 does but I think the stage does more harm than good.

Tripping on the side platforms of Frigate's 2nd form may bother you, but in the end, it still involves the same tripping rate as every other part of 'legal Brawl'. It's no worse than tripping on Delfino or Halberd right as the stage takes off without you.

How is "more harm than good" supposed to support your argument?

Edit: As a side note, the ice phase of PS2 buffs the ICs, as I believe they have the highest traction out of all characters on ice.

 

[blacktwins13]

It was practically yesterday!


Is there a reason you have your arrows set up that way?

why yes... yes there is

 

[NH Cody]

so yeah the tier list doesn't seem so clear right now below meta knight. ICs have had good results like Gheb or someone else posted but they are truly a gimmick character where you can get a lucky separation in the first 10 seconds in the match or something and then time them out. or the player could drop grabs. A lot of things have to go right for the ICs player and a lot of things have to go wrong for the other. You could be two stocks down but come back and beat the ICs just because you had messed up twice and got grabbed - at this point you decide you have to be more meticulous with your spacing, and it works. Toon Link could be high tier, but the very worst character there if he is in that tier. Marth should undoubtedly be at least top 5 based on results and on matchups.

 

[infiniteV115]

How is "more harm than good" supposed to support your argument?

Cause I'm an idiot and I can't type LOL

Edit: As a side note, the ice phase of PS2 buffs the ICs, as I believe they have the highest traction out of all characters on ice.

That's true. It's not like any of the other stages in our current stagelists benefit ICs

Toon Link could be high tier, but the very worst character there if he is in that tier.

YOU MIGHT BE ON TO SOMETHING THERE, QUEST

 

[NH Cody]

was it just me or was swf down for a short while? I couldn't access the site until now.

 

[infiniteV115]

Wasn't just you. I was trying to look up a results thread and **** wasn't opening

 

[bubbaking]

Hooooooly cow! Whaaaat? I just.......had the biggest bout of deja vu ever. The last few posts.... I've seen them all before! Was it a dream?

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah dejavus are ****in trippy

 

[ぱみゅ]

There is no deja vu, the discussions always go in circles.
You just witnessed one of them.

 

[bubbaking]

Circles that even include that exact direct exchange between Quest and V115? I think not!

 

[bubbaking]

It's been well over an hour...

because you said "that leaves TL with boomerangs to keep Ganon out," implying that he can't use bombs or arrows just because of nair.

As far as I saw, Verm never replied to this - I'm assuming he gave up after being misunderstood for so long - so I'm going to do so in his stead. Verm NEVER said that nair deals with both arrows and 'rangs. I pointed this out a couple times, but you just ignored me (and him) each time. His point was that Ganon's arrow-cancelling nair, combined with all the various ways to catch bombs that EVERY CHAR HAS (Z-catching, AD catching, etc.), make it so that TL's only truly effective zoning/camping option is boomerang, which is significantly slower and easier to outright avoid. Being restricted mostly to that also makes his 'walling' quite linear, so he actually ISN'T walling Ganon out. Just had to get that off my chest because it was really annoying how oblivious you were being.

You're talking about windows for error and punishment? TL has a bigger margin for error than Ganon does. If the Ganon messes up when he has momentum it could cost him severely. That might be his only opportunity to get big damage/the stock and if he doesn't capitalize on *every* one of these moments he has very little hope of winning.

Lolz, what's TL going to do if Ganon "messes up"? Get a free hit in? Oh great, awesome, that's so nice when you consider that TL can't kill anything reasonably heavy forever. Btw, nobody, not even Verm, was contesting that Ganon has a smaller window for error and punishment than TL does. That's what a -2 entails. A -3, which is what you were suggesting, implies that Ganon has no reasonable chance outside of a huge MU discrepancy. Verm already proved, with both practical theory and results, that this isn't true.

If the Ganon connects a side-B on Toon Link it's kind of like Snake dthrow. it's not impossible to escape. I'm not seeing how TL's roll being bad allows Ganon to tech chase easier. You can react and do the getup attack, etc.

No one was ever saying that Ganon's Gerudo tech-chase is "impossible to escape", but if you can't see how having a bad get-up roll makes tech-chasing easier, I don't know what to tell you. You're simply ignoring one of the fundamental aspects of Smash, which is how certain get-up traits decrease or increase the ease of TCs. How are you "reacting" when you are the one who has to make the first action, lolz? If anything, Ganon is 'reacting' to you. Get-up attack is easily shieldgrabbed, btw. Everything you said here is just wrong.

 

[Luco]

PS2 is more radical than PS1. You will never be able to argue otherwise. PS2 brings in physics changes and increased trip rates while PS1 does not. You can say that PS2 shouldn't be legal if PS1 isn't legal, but you can't state the converse.

I don't see why not.

Primary mains: Yoshi>IC'S>Lucas>Mario>TL>Fox>Luigi
Secondary mains: MK>Peach<Falco>Marth>Ness>Kirby>Oli>G&W>ZSS>Pika
Tertiary mains: Rest of the cast that i don't use (smirk)

NO BLACKTWINS!!! YOU MUST RESIST THE ICs TEMPTATION! MORE LUCAS. GOOOOO LUCAS!!!!




Oh, and



But on a serious note, why is everyone confused by 'RL tournies'? You don't have to read in to it, it means what it means. I was referring to stuff that had no relation to tournies, so to make sure people didn't get confused I said 'RL tournies'. You know, the ones we have all the time. Guess it didn't work though haha.

On the subject of Atomsk vs. Gluttony, I think you need to take in to account a few things here, Bubba. First, DDDs are used a to a free MU here so I think Gluttony coming back with a pressuring playstyle suddenly put a lot of pressure on Atomsk. Basically, he had nerves when playing. That can't be ignored. Stuff happens when you're playing a match. You can't assume DDD won't make mistakes. Granted, he made more mistakes than usual but really, can you judge? I think there's a bunch of factors that went in to that match that we have to consider before discarding it and in the end, if Gluttony won, even with the mistakes DDD made I don't necessarily see that as a -3 because I know of plenty of Marth mains who make plenty of mistakes when versing the PSI kids and still body them. Heck, even shaky vs. Leon just before Apex was really back and forth and Shaky only won like one match. And iirc (could be wrong here), Leon died from plenty of stupid reasons. Shaky did as well iirc.

Bottom line, I think we can't write it off just yet. I don't know either of these characters, that's just what it seemed like to me, seeing as i happened to see that match before it was posted here.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, I think it's fine as a -2. It was Reflex who suggested the -3. I guess one could blame nerves. So much for my opinion that top players got over their cases of 'tourney jitters'... Other than that, though, he had no excuse for missing all the stuff he did. Sure, people make mistakes, but once he saw that he was screwing up the GR >f/bair and even the GR > utilt, he should have gone with something a lot easier, like the GR > usmash (which is literally IMPOSSIBLE to miss if you can mash the C-stick) for guaranteed damage or the kill when it was fresh. Instead, he went for even flashier stuff, like GR > footstool, which worked but also showed that he wasn't willing to make the 'downgrade' in difficulty in order to ensure consistency.

Edit: In this very respect, a top player's 'pocket DDD' might have done even better than Atomsk's because he probably would have just gone for the easy, guaranteed fundamentals, things like CG > GR > usmash every time Wario was grabbed.

reverse uair isn't that great for gimping decent characters imo, you can only go safely off the ledge a certain distance before you risk someone just getting past you and grabbing the ledge first. this is especially true for tether characters who have the broken ability to airdodge and then change their minds at any time to attack or grab the ledge. ganondorf can't really edgeguard toon link through bombs, rangs, tethering and superior range. something like reverse uair would be nice if ganon had other options to mix in.

I'm going to strongly disagree here. Reverse uair can be quite good for gimping, especially when you combine it with the coverage of dair (which also proves that you're wrong in saying that Ganan has no "other options to mix in"). Ganon can go far enough to get a meaningful gimp and still make it back with upB before his opponent can. This is especially true for TL with his short tether and the way his upB works. TL won't be able to just AD and then "change his mind at any time to attack or grab the ledge." I don't think his range will stop Ganon's reverse uair, either. If Ganon reads a certain maneuver to avoid uair, he can stomp. The two moves actually compliment each other's ranges quite well.

Well, he goes even with everyone in A...
He just lacks results outside of Europe and Mikeneko.

Funny how you think that Marth goes even with MK when I think only Mikeneko has ever shown anything even slightly suggesting that. Doesn't Marth also lose to Diddy? Regardless, I do agree that Marth actually has an A Tier spread, but if we were going mostly by MU spreads, Marth and Falco would replace Diddy and Snake in the top 5.

 

[Luco]

Ah, sorry bubba, that's my bad then.

Though I do agree with you that he was making a few more mistakes than i'd usually expect to see, especially in a MM... I guess the Europe vs. America pressure got to him or something? I've had the weirdest things come in to my head when playing tournament matches so I guess I can kinda understand...?

Ah well.

 

[bubbaking]

anyone wanna make side bets on the topic of this thread in apex 2014?

$20 on "still ZSS"

idk man, I hope we get v8 published by then

V8 will probably be the reason the topic is "still ZSS".

 

[Luco]

Oh and I love deja vu. My favourite thing ever.

Spoiler's just an off-topic but I guess interesting rant.

Spoiler

Also i'm fascinated by how the subconscious takes over when your conscious brain is out. For instance, just the other day i found out that my maths teacher was sick and substitutes don't do early classes: basically I got to in later than usual on that day. However my dad came home late that night and I was asleep when he arrived - and he usually goes with me on those mornings. Of course he was confused the next morning and apparently woke me up (queue the part I have absolutely no recollection of, especially as an hour later I wondered why my dad 'hadn't woken me up to ask just such a thing') to ask me "Don't you have an early class today?". I apparently responded by saying the exact reason why I didn't and then he accepted that and went to get ready for his day.

I mean what the heck? How did I do that while not really being conscious, since the likelihood was that i'd have remembered it only an hour later when i actually did wake up for school.

Or a time ages ago when i had a hypoglycemic reaction. Basically we were on a long walk, it rained, I was (and still am) picky about my apples and didn't really prefer the bruised ones, saying i could eat when we got back. I remember walking from being in the forest, to walking near some houses, to going in to my house.... and that's it. I'll say now that that distance i walked was a long way and I was literally blacking out whilst doing it.... but i kept walking. And I walked on the right path, avoiding obstacles like roots and rocky, uneven terrain, unwavering... it makes no sense to me that I just did that when I had no control over myself. And I hadn't done that walk a lot so it wasn't like the path was instinct or muscle memory. I guess my drive to get home just managed to pull me through when all my other senses went dead.

I nearly died from that experience (funny how sugar saves you in moments like that). I'm just.... so fascinated by that. How my brain knew to do these things. It's... awesome, I think. :D

/end off-topic rant

Anyway, do you really think ZSS will rise that much, Bubba? I think the thing over olimar said to the BBR that raising a character that much was a little over the top but... I suppose? Maybe? I dunno, I'm hoping the BBR will put her right where she needs to be.

Thanks for the leak, kyo. It's nice to know the project's been started. Any idea how long it will take or is that info unavailable atm? =)

 

[Dark.Pch]

You're predictable. And wrong.

-3 vs MK / Snake
-2 vs Falco
-1 vs Olimar / Diddy Kong
0 to -1 vs ICs

Peach loses to all top tiers.

Wrong! Peach does NOT lose to Olimar or IC. And for the rest of the high tiers, She does not lose to Wario, ZSS, or Pikachu. People like you always see things from one side. Yet never the other side. You don't know even know how Peach can give these characters seriously problems. ALOT of people don't. Which I take advantage of cause smashers are so simple minded when it comes to high tiers vs mid/low tiers.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Wrong! Peach does NOT lose to Olimar or IC. And for the rest of the high tiers, She does not lose to Wario, ZSS, or Pikachu. People like you always see things from one side. Yet never the other side. You don't know even know how Peach can give these characters seriously problems. ALOT of people don't. Which I take advantage of cause smashers are so simple minded when it comes to high tiers vs mid/low tiers.

Dude, we get it. You know Peach.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Has nothing to do with " You guys need to get it" For I am not here for any of you. I will correct false statements. If you don't like it, use the ignore feature. It's here for a reason.

 

[bubbaking]

I really disagree with Gheb on the Peach:ICs matter. That is actually one MU I am somewhat familiar with thanks to Melee, since not much has fundamentally changed with either character involved in the MU. Peach very solidly wins in Melee. It's a +2. In Brawl, Peach is much worse and the ICs are much better, but a lot of the same features remain. Things like float-cancelling, safe shield pressure and pokes, and the ability to stay out of the ICs' hands for the entire match (and even the set) while separating them and giving them some serious damage keep this solidly in Peach's advantage, although the advantage probably isn't as much as it was in Melee (dsmash).

I disagree with Dark.Pch in calling Peach a "mid/low tier" character.

Edit: At the very, very worst, that MU is even. I believe that is an opinion that both top Peaches and top ICs have expressly stated on here. Going with the theory I've stated and their authoritative opinions, I'm going to conclude that the MU is, in fact, somewhere from 0 to +1 in Peach's favor.

V8 will probably be the reason the topic is "still ZSS".

I honestly had not seen this post when I wrote that:

V8 is going to be the reason we're still talking about zss


hey i guess that means in like 107 years we'll be talking about Official Tier List V115

This was my very first time reading it, actually. Smart minds think alike? What about less smart ones?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I really disagree with Gheb on the Peach:ICs matter. That is actually one MU I am somewhat familiar with thanks to Melee, since not much has fundamentally changed with either character involved in the MU. Peach very solidly wins in Melee. It's a +2. In Brawl, Peach is much worse and the ICs are much better, but a lot of the same features remain. Things like float-cancelling, safe shield pressure and pokes, and the ability to stay out of the ICs' hands for the entire match (and even the set) while separating them and giving them some serious damage keep this solidly in Peach's advantage, although the advantage probably isn't as much as it was in Melee (dsmash).

I disagree with Dark.Pch in calling Peach a "mid/low tier" character.

Edit: At the very, very worst, that MU is even. I believe that is an opinion that both top Peaches and top ICs have expressly stated on here. Going with the theory I've stated and their authoritative opinions, I'm going to conclude that the MU is, in fact, somewhere from 0 to +1 in Peach's favor.

The Match up with Peach and IC are a lil different then how it was in melee. The Same rules apply. Difference is, peach is not as beast as she was in melee. So I have to be more careful than usual. And I have new tools this time around then she has in melee.

Melee Peach= Better over all with lil tools.
Brawl Peach= Downgraded version but with more things to play with which can make her as good as she was in melee. Just now you seriously have to work harder and abusing all these tools is a must.

I think nearly every IC believe that they win, even people who don't even use them. The way to get at IC in general is to do 2 things.

- Avoid the grab
- Seperate them

Every character has to figure out a way to do this. If they can't do this solidly, they lose the match. if they can do it, its about even. if they can do it really well, they can lose it. Peach is one of the few in this game that can do both really well. On top of that, out ranges them. She can zone them out well. For one thing, she is not having that blizzard nonsense since turnips go throw it. Ice blocks aint doing a much expect for keeping her from freely getting turnips. Though at distance, she can PS them, and then get a turnip. If she gets hit, it will cancel her turnip animation and she will have the turnip in hand. I do this to falco when I wanna get a quick turnip and I take a laser shot, so I can move in right away. She can move in well for approaches and force blocks,evasions.

And I don't think as of now Peach would be high tier. If she was to get to that level, she would be bottom of high. For now I think she is top of mid

 

[bubbaking]

Fair enough.

I think salem is a great players. His character however gets bodied by ICs and has trouble with falco. If Vinnie didnt get pooped on by Dojo, the ZSS Cinderella story would have never happened

She doesn't beat them. According to Vinnie and 9B. Only ZSS I have fought is Jbandrew so I don't have much input.

iirc Vinnie says ICs win and Esam says ICs lose.

I'm just going to go with even for now

All the top ZSS mains also say that ZSS wins, so I'm going to go with small +1 for ZSS for now.

 

[NAKAT]

That's a bad determining factor, but I mean at the end of they day none of this really matters. Just play the game.

 

[bubbaking]

I'll often trust the opinions of top players of their characters, especially if many of them from both sides agree. I'll never play that MU from either side, so I'd never really be able to say anything definitive myself and "just playing the game" won't give me an idea of what that MU looks like.

 

[NAKAT]

What I meant by just play the game is often in this thread it's just pure theory crafting by people who don't represent high/top level play or even go to tournaments. Normally this leads to dumb debates or even sometimes arguments. I say leave it to the top/high level players to handle discussions about MU's and the such. Still at the end of the day the game is more about the player behind the character. You can argue that Ice Climbers will beat some character solidly. That doesn't really matter because they can still lose regardless.

 

[Gardex]

Glasscannon characters to the max

 

[bubbaking]

True, but sometimes, players underrate or overrate their own characters or how much weight certain traits of their characters hold in specific MUs for various personal reasons. Besides, by deferring to the opinions of top ZSS and ICs players, wasn't I essentially "leaving it to the top/high level players"? Or were you talking about something else?

Snake will never be on that level? Except he was dominate until late 2010, and he only started not doing well recently. If there were snake mains that were on the level of Esam or anti in my region he would always be in the top 4.

Even if such a Snake existed in NY/NJ, I doubt that he would "always be in the top 4" in such a stacked region. With players like M2K, Nairo, Vinnie, Anti, Salem, Dabuz, and others around, there's no way that such success would be guaranteed.

 

[NAKAT]

Nah I wasn't trying to come at you lol.

 

[Dekillsage]

Peach vs Ic's is around 50-50. But it seems to me like a match up where the IC players use their actual tools instead of 1 button. Otherwise peach wins it...

@bubba
Maybe. Though having a snake @ their level would make our non-mk mains lives much harder.(this includes dabuz)

Haven't looked @ results lately but snake usually places in our top 5 anyways thanks to fatal. That's not good enough though I guess when the rest are the usually the godknights. :/

 

[bubbaking]

Nah, it would make my life and that of any other DDD main around MUCH EASIER. I'd much rather fight a Snake than the bajillion MKs drifting around. MK's recent increase in dominance is probably the reason for the decline of DDDs, like, everywhere.

Edit: Last time I spoke to him, John12346 actually shared the same sentiment as me. Makes sense figuring that he's the one who fought the hardest for banning MK.

D3 is only our hardest -2 on the super conservative japanese ruleset. D3's bair is very linear, making it pretty easy to get past. If you think Bair outranging our entire aerial moveset merits it the ability to beat us in the air then I guess characters like Kirby, Rob, GW, etc. beat us too.

Well perhaps those characters beat Waro (in the air) as well. I ask you to remember the last time we played Wario vs G&W on Wifi (not that it means much). Besides, you may think it's easy to get past DDD's bair (it isn't if he spaces it well, varies its timing, and goes for fair > bair frame-traps), but I think it's easy to just trap and grab Wario's landing.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Dedede is bad, bubba's right, I'd rather get frustrated in a sea of Snakes than play MK.

Doesn't matter, stopped playing, game's bad, blah blah blah

 

[bubbaking]

Yo, we should meet up to play P:M sometime!

And bubba, that logic doesn't really work because, although I admit they're probably going down, Oli and Pika sure as heck aren't going down the tier list because of an even MU with Ness.

The difference is that Ness is a surprisingly solid character who's 'gimped' by a stupid GR, a CG from DDD, and his recovery at times. Oli and Pika going even with Ness is like the ICs going even with Wolf; it makes sense when you actually consider the attributes of the lower-tiered char and the only reasons he's lower-tiered to begin with. Going even with DDD is just.....bad, though. I mean, DDD's definitely a High Tier char, but if you go even with him, you're definitely not a top 3 char. At any time, your performance in a tourney may end up 'gimped' from a DDD.

Get out of here with that region pride shiz. That's just plain trolling to try to put Logic near Dabuz's level.

With that said, Dabuz is probably the 2nd best if not the best Olimar in the world when he's not being dumb.

Relieved to see that someone could catch my intent here. My point still stands, though. Olimar's not the Ally of Olimars. He's not so much better (or even better at all) than every other Oli to have out-placed them all by that much, especially Rich Brown. Looking at his bracket, he WAS particularly lucky, way 'luckier' than Salem. At the beginning of his bracket, he got to fight and beat two other Olis (who may have been worse than him), Logic and Denti, two Diddys (definitely not a hard MU for Oli), Lie and Zinoto, a Snake (advantageous MU for Oli), Ally, and a MK, Kakera, losing to Rain in Winners. AFTER, he'd already out-placed every other Oli in the bracket, he beat DEHF (the very first disadvantageous non-MK MU he had to play in bracket at all) and then lost to Otori. If people want to comment on how 'easy' Salem's bracket was, this is definitely one to talk about as well. This analysis also justifies my labelling Dabuz as an outlier. He knocked out most of the other good Olis and only really had to face MKs and even and advantageous MUs other than that. That alone allowed him to severely out-place his top Olimar brethren.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'll often trust the opinions of top players of their characters, especially if many of them from both sides agree. I'll never play that MU from either side, so I'd never really be able to say anything definitive myself and "just playing the game" won't give me an idea of what that MU looks like.

This is why you have to do your own homework. Top players don't even know it all. And tend to get away with alot of stuff. I have corrected many things that comes out of top players dealing with my character cause they never really took the time to learn. They just did stuff, say that a few people struggled and think its legit. I have heard alot of stupid things come from a top players mouth. If I wanna know something I go find out myself more then rely on word of mouth.

Even with the BBR which is suppose to be a elite group I'll call BS on.

 

[infiniteV115]

It's not exactly easy to find out if top level Peach beats top level ICs by yourself if you're a low-mid level DDD main