Official BBR Tier List v7

[Illuvial]

I did not see the "/" notation between Pika and Marth. My mistake.

Ignorance for the win!

 

[bubbaking]

Of course there's going to be a bit of bracket luck involved in that but at least there is a chance to pull it off for ROB, as opposed to Peach, GW, Sheik, Kirby or Lucario who lose to pretty much every top tier character. Luminous - who is imo the best active ROB player right now - beat various high level MKs by outskilling them, beat Mikeneko and beat Vinnie. It's definitely not a huge stretch of the imagination for this to happen in the bracket of an Apex tournament. I'd say it's a pretty huge stretch to assume that to happen for any of the other characters I menioned above.

This is incorrect, IMO, and your logic contradicts the very logic of a tier list.

First off, you're wrong in saying that Lucario loses to every Top Tier. He beats Pika, and from what John12346 has told me about the important features of that MU, it's a pretty solid advantage. I also don't know if the official MU value for that MU is changing anytime soon, so I'll roll with it for now. Lucario also doesn't have any worse-than-slightly bad MUs, other than his MU against MK. Going by this, it's definitely more probable for a Luke to win a national than a ROB. Secondly, saying that ROB has a better chance of winning a tourney than chars higher than him on the tier list makes no sense when you realize that a char's tier list position is a DIRECT display of that char's tourney viability compared to the other chars. If ROB is below Lucario, G&W, and Peach, then he has a worse chance of winning a large tourney than them, at least in a MK-legal environment.

Tl;dr - Before you start trying to argue that ROB has a better chance of winning a tourney than Lucario, perhaps you should try to argue that ROB should be High Tier first.

 

[Illuvial]

Look at bubbaking, gettin' technical as always XD

 

[bubbaking]

Top tier in the next list should include MK, Snake, Falco, ICs, Diddy Kong, Olimar, and ZSS in no particular order (but maybe with with ZSS at the bottom of it) followed by Marth, Pikachu, and the others.

There's not really any other logical position to have IMO.

My reservations about this is that both char's MU spreads are waaay too good for them to not be in Top Tier. Marth is Marth. He has one of the best MU spreads in the entire game. Pika is the only char in the game who bodies every spacee, and he beats Snake pretty solidly on top of that. Going even with MK (this value is being preserved in the next chart, so don't try to argue this) is also a very Top Tier trait. Going even with or barely losing to any other non-Oli Top Tier char is another strong point. Having a +2 on DDD is nifty and being able to absolutely destroy Sheik is unseen anywhere outside of the ICs. In fact, he beats practically all of High Tier and below and he has some really key +2's and +3's in there. All of this points to Pika remaining in Top Tier, even if near the bottom of it.

Edit: Also, ESAM is the only Pika that matters. His results aren't really lacking. Yes, they are bolstered (by way more than a little) by his co-main, the ICs, but still, Pika has some really good results. Of course, it would be better if we had a solo Pika main showing some stuff.

 

[Cassio]

Hmm, I cant see wario being top tier when his three worst MUs are two of the games most popular characters as well as another very common one. Even peach is commonly used. Great character, but I just dont see him being successful like those above him.

Actually Im just gonna make a tentative chart.

Spoiler

Top
S

A
(sorry Delux)
Upper
B

High
C

Mid
D


E

Low
F

Bottom
G
:Zelda:

Basic summary:

Snake and Falco are tricky. Theyre top tier characters that potentially even own the cast below them worse than some of top tier and have a good spread on almost all relevant characters, but when the bracket thins out near the top at major events they're a lot more likely to run into a troublesome MU that will likely force them to use a secondary.

ZSS could be higher, but I think its a little pre-mature. Well, I can't speak for Marth aside from his MU spread, but in spite of Pikas lack of rep hes been a staple of top placements at nationals since the game's release. Almost always top 8, very rarely just top 16, and more than occasional appearances in top 4. Besides Apex I know ZSS has had a couple placements in top 8 here and there, but itd still be good to show some more consistency in that regard.

I started mid-tier at peach since this is where characters start to struggle in tournament against most common opponents, in fact the disadvantages in her MU chart are basically a list of the characters in high-tier/borderline and above in spite of going even with or beating most of the cast (though such MUs are less relevant).

PT's mid-tier cause of reflex. Luigi low-tier since for awhile Ive never thought him to be comparable in results or ability to those around him, and his MU chart looks almost exactly the same as Marios.


Not really set in stone about all this so Im open to different opinions.

 

[DeLux]

That actually is pretty passable assuming Japanese/Socal 7 rulesset Truth imo

 

[Cassio]

Actually yeah, Im kinda assuming no Halberd/Delphino since socal uses that and it looks like NY/NJ, Apex, and SKTAR are trending that way too.

 

[NH Cody]

There's no way in the world Lucario is above toon link or Diddy is above Snake.

 

[infiniteV115]

Halberd and Delfino have been legal at every Apex.
Pretty sure NJ/NY has them both legal fairly often as well.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I could actually agree with that list, Cassio.
A couple differences here and there (and a lot on the low-bottom), but it looks about right.

 

[Illuvial]

I still have no idea how ROB has a better chance than Lucario at winning a big tourney when he loses horribly to Falco and Olimar. Even if MK is banned in the tourney ROB would need a hell of a bracket. Lucario just needs a lot less luck to win in a MK banned tourney.

And in a tourney where MK is allowed I have no idea how ROB could win it.

 

[Dekillsage]

There's no way in the world Lucario is above toon link or Diddy is above Snake.

Should be glad people even consider tl high tier. If it were up to me I'd put him where kirby is.

Halberd and Delfino have been legal at every Apex.
Pretty sure NJ/NY has them both legal fairly often as well.

They've been turned off recently along with frigate(amazing). I think sktar also didn't use a lot of the cp stages as well.
I don't know why people here want to keep castle over frigate but that's just me talking as a snake main who has to fight some ddd who would take me there.


Edit: Amazing. This guy put sonic over kirby. Damn you sonic results!!!!(????)

 

[NH Cody]

Should be glad people even consider tl high tier. If it were up to me I'd put him where kirby is.

well it's a good thing you're not in charge of the tier list

 

[Cassio]

V115 this is just stuff Ive seen on facebook. It looks like those stages and probably Frigate are about to get the axe in the places I mentioned.

Diddy I put above snake because his infinites seem to be used more commonly now, and he doesnt quite get stopped in bracket the same way snake can. This is assuming the highest level of play, I dont think Diddys on average will do as well as snakes though.

 

[bubbaking]

For NY/NJ, it honestly depends on the tournament. MK-legality plays a pretty large role in what stages are allowed. IIRC, the Impact series used the URC stagelist minus PS2, Brinstar, and RC. Players took a vote on each one, however, so the ruleset could have honestly been anything.

There's no way in the world Lucario is above toon link or Diddy is above Snake.

You're really, really old skool, aren't you? (<__<) That's not a good thing...

Being serious or not means nothing. I just used you like a woman. Don't get hype.



The only part that matter to me in this post was

"Dark.Pch I loved your commentary yesterday"





I just keep it real.



*was gonna respond to this*

*realizes who is posting*

*Lets the person be with the nonsense*

Most real post I've seen from Dark.Pch in a looong while!

 

[infiniteV115]

IIRC, the Impact series used the URC stagelist minus PS2, Brinstar, and RC.

That's called the Apex stagelist.
Maybe it has 7 starters like the URS instead of 5 like the Apex ruleset, but it's still the same stagelist.

 

[pidgezero_one]

How did you do that? o_0

I am a magical being.

 

[Dekillsage]

well it's a good thing you're not in charge of the tier list

My tier list
MetaKnight

No one else.

V115 this is just stuff Ive seen on facebook. It looks like those stages and probably Frigate are about to get the axe in the places I mentioned.

Diddy I put above snake because his infinites seem to be used more commonly now, and he doesnt quite get stopped in bracket the same way snake can. This is assuming the highest level of play, I dont think Diddys on average will do as well as snakes though.

Diddy has as much trouble as snake does. Has trouble fighting Ic's, marth, snake, falco, olimar(?). Good players overcome these match ups though. Highest level of play snake would be killing a ton of characters off dthrow alone... only in my dreams is that the highest level of snake play

 

[ぱみゅ]

Wait, NJ/NY is shrinkin their stagelist?
Wouldn't be so bad except everyone always get in their wagon... This is a sad day for me....

 

[DeLux]

Sorry Kyokoro

There was some discussion amongst TO's and I've been lobbying people to keep stage lists 9-13 with more stage bans (2 or 3) but nobody listens

At least to me lol

 

[bubbaking]

That's called the Apex stagelist.
Maybe it has 7 starters like the URS instead of 5 like the Apex ruleset, but it's still the same stagelist.

It had 7 starters. That's actually a very significant and important difference from the APEX ruleset.

Super late reply, but...

That means I have the reason to be liberalist as most people's reasoning for their conservationism.
Good to know we're not having that discussion.... again (:

You also think there was nothing wrong with the POW block, or the Mushroom Kingdom stage in general, in SSB 64..... <__<

B Tier: Best Players Can Do Well With Them tier
, ,, ,

C Tier: Could Be Top Tier But Then MK/Other Bad MU tier
, , , , ,

As troll-y as this was, I have to ask: How did Wario, DDD, and TL avoid being put into C Tier?

 

[Dark.Pch]

For NY/NJ, it honestly depends on the tournament. MK-legality plays a pretty large role in what stages are allowed. IIRC, the Impact series used the URC stagelist minus PS2, Brinstar, and RC. Players took a vote on each one, however, so the ruleset could have honestly been anything.


You're really, really old skool, aren't you? (<__<) That's not a good thing...


Most real post I've seen from Dark.Pch in a looong while!

What do you mean. Just about every post I make I keep it real.

 

[Dekillsage]

Wait, NJ/NY is shrinkin their stagelist?
Wouldn't be so bad except everyone always get in their wagon... This is a sad day for me....

People are tired of being sharked by metaknight. Don't know why they have castle over frigate though.

Sorry Kyokoro

There was some discussion amongst TO's and I've been lobbying people to keep stage lists 9-13 with more stage bans (2 or 3) but nobody listens

At least to me lol

Apex ruleset with more stage bans(1 starter and 1 cp or 2 cps right?) is better than turning them off imo.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You also think there was nothing wrong with the POW block, or the Mushroom Kingdom stage in general, in SSB 64..... <__<

I'd need to see the POW block, but the layout didn't look bad, specially because (as I can remember) it is generally unsafe to just sit in your shield in that game.
Anyway, when I said I didn't want to debate with you on that regard, it was because you said "ICs force you to ban a neutral", and I had like a million of things to say about that one statement.
I decided to simply keep them for myself instead of start a discussion about it.


@Lux: More stagebans is always a better option than ban right away. But most TOs are dumb and don't look for logical solutions, just the easier ones.

@Dekillage: What saddens me the most is that, if more people think like that about Siege, they'll just ban it from their stagelists... And it's not an unfeasible possibility.

 

[bubbaking]

Lotsa late replies...

Good pocket D3s are not very common, but people who try to pull him out of their *** to try and gay Wario more often lose than not. (e.g. Waymas vs Kingtoon, Reflex and myself vs Seagull). When a Wario loses to a D3, it's usually the main of the player.

You've beaten Seagull's DDD?

Do not list Dabuz's pit when considering top level player's high level pockets.

Huh? Why not?

Yeah marth loses to snake -1
Not that big of a deal lol

The official chart says that Snake actually loses to Marth -1. Where do you pull this info from? At most, this MU is changing to even, not Snake's favor. Marth juggles Snake for days and he can hit him through grenades. He also edgeguards him really hard.

Pierce could explain why DDD is easy to fight. he has a few good posts on this. CJ or Shaya or someone, help. lol. I would say it's mostly because of the juggling.

They're not gonna help you because I don't think either of them believes that Marth goes even with or beats DDD. That MU is not being suggested for a change in the next chart either, so in any case, DDD:Marth is remaining as a +1 for DDD.

 

[NH Cody]

My tier list
MetaKnight

No one else.

sounds about right.

 

[Shaya]

Dedede is a goodish character.
People tend to forget.
Marth is an amazing character who barely beats just about everyone.
People tend to deny THE TRUTH.

When it comes to Dedede, we're all fine and dandy stating it as a loss, as on the tables of probability, Marth is working harder. There aren't many match ups which Marth has to work harder than the enemy does. For a very long time the same logic applied to Diddy and MK. Most hardcore Marths don't really consider MK a "work harder" match up, more so a "get ****ed up" (just like everyone else) match up but otherwise competes very evenly (it's also a plus we **** him up). Our player base has gotten better at the Diddy match up I guess, but I'm still on the side of us needing to work harder.

Nearly every contended +1/0/-1 Marth has is really just tipping off the sides of even in my eyes, it's been a lot easier "politically" to just agree on 0s with everyone when we believe we have a slight edge and giving people the +1 when they have a slight edge because booo hooh the public tier list hate society.

tl;dr Marth beats everyone 55:45 in the realist of meanings. He loses maybe 4-5 matches 45:55. In terms of extremes, D3 is probably the only character who pushes those probabilities further than 45:55 but it comes down to a specific part of the MU in which the paradigm for MUs in Brawl right now tends to disregard it.

 

[Dekillsage]

@ bubba
I get this from personal experience lol. Marth doesn't juggle snake for days, we can always go high. If he hits is through grenades, we just turn around and block fair with a grenade in hand. Snake edgeguards marth hard too, we can just bair off the ledge and he'll die(if done right). Marth has to outplay snake pretty hard to beat him, just like diddy kong for example.

 

[NH Cody]

Shaya, where are those posts Pierce made about fighting DDD (link?)

 

[Shaya]

Marth playing against Snake properly just waits. We juggle him just by regrabbing him or swiping just before he reaches the ground. Bad marths in the MU go for the long hard juggles while Snake's off the top in a bubble doing his random b reverses. Snake landing with a grenade is basically the best thing for us in the entire universe considering how hard we **** it, but as said, most Marths continue to go for juggles rather than ****** the FREEDOM.

Pierce's thoughts on Dedede are within the paradigms of brawl thinking MUs (and I don't remember where that post is). In my line of logic he'd probably agree its a 45 or even 40:60. But it all comes down to one affect which a player's ability to deal with it against another player comes down to it not even being related to characters at all. It's kinda even-ish... His power shield and roll punishes are problematic.

 

[NH Cody]

no cause I remember him saying DDD was easy to fight and juggle. He's inactive so we probably wouldn't be able to get him to direct us to where he said it.

Dekillsage, Marth does juggle Snake.

 

[Dark.Pch]

People say that match ups are important. Peach should be top of mid. She has better match ups then both fox and wolf. I don't know how G&W match ups are vs the above tier slots. So I can't argue If she should above him cause of this. I will say I think Peach is a better character then G&W over all. But to see who would be ahead on the tier list, I can't say anything until I know his match up spread.

For wolf and Fox, Peach has more tools and versatility then both. The only thing people are gonna agrue here is the usual BS. "Peach can't kill and has no airdodge. lololololol" It thats all that really mattered this list would be flipped upside down. And People seriously need to let this 08 mentality go. Much more tools/options then both fox and wolf and better match ups. Peach should be top of mid or second to mid being behind G&W. But I can't argue with G&W for the reason I already stated. So Im gonna have to hold that for now.

As for DDD, Don't think he is as good as people think he is. Or where this tier list has him. DDD gets heavy rewards for those that are aggressive and like to jump alot. He has to wait alot cause of the way he is. Most of his damage comes from grabs and bairs. And I feel that if players play a game solidly shutting down these 2 traits he be having hella problems. He is like a fat IC. difference is, one grab does not lead to death. Just lots of damage. With out grabs or bairs, what does he actually have to harrash people and get solid damage. If a character is in his space he can't freely throw out moves. The only time I feel threaten by DDD is when his back is turned. Which gives him answers to alot of things. Any character that can out range him and has good pressure or zoning can give DDD problems.

If you think this is BS for DDD, I want you to go watch high level play of him. And play close attention to how he gets his damage. The most common ways he racks up damage is usually off grabs and bairs. I don't care how good the player is, this is where they get damage. You don't see DDD going nutz on a player. He simple can't do that. He has to wait. And gets rewarded hard for it when people have lil patients or don't pressure him well enough.

 

[bubbaking]

@Quest: DDD can be juggled (by a lot of chars). That doesn't make the MU any more in your favor. You know who else can be juggled? MARTH! And he gets juggled even harder than we do because he only has one jump and his dair sucks for forcing his way back down, unlike our own dair.

@ bubba
I get this from personal experience lol. Marth doesn't juggle snake for days, we can always go high. If he hits is through grenades, we just turn around and block fair with a grenade in hand. Snake edgeguards marth hard too, we can just bair off the ledge and he'll die(if done right). Marth has to outplay snake pretty hard to beat him, just like diddy kong for example.

I never said Marth doesn't have to outplay Snake to beat him, but a lot of your reasoning here is faulty. How does Snake just "go high" if he's being juggled? Do you know what being juggled is? It means you keep getting sent back into the air with more and more damage, oftentimes without a jump. If Snake "goes high" at any point, he's just helping Marth's cause. Marth can hit through grenades even when you're turned around, I believe. Besides, you can't just 'react' to Marth attacking you. If you're going to turn around, you have to do so preemptively simply because Marth is within range to hit you. In that case, Marth can just grab you. He controls the RPS game up-close. That's where his major advantage is. You can't just bair off the ledge to gimp Marth, man. Marth's invincible upB will rip right through it ("if done right", in your own words). A +1 for Marth still requires him to put in a good bit of work.

 

[Shaya]

Snake just up bs every time he gets hit.

And Snake's pray that marth follows them in the air after he up-bs.

As I said, bad marths chase that juggle rather than waiting for Snake to be down to one of two options and destroying him from there. Snake landing with a grenade is close to the most abusable thing Marth has in the MU.

Watch MikeHaze against every snake bar ally (he got better at the MU) and how seemless and simple he completely and utterly dismantles them (just by standing there usually and swinging his sword once every 3 seconds). MikeNeko against Ally was not one lost from juggles, but one lost from snake actually needing to land (and when Snake lands against Marth he has no offensive options whatsoever at his disposal other than the HOPE that Marth hits his grenade... lol)

 

[Dekillsage]

no cause I remember him saying DDD was easy to fight and juggle. He's inactive so we probably wouldn't be able to get him to direct us to where he said it.

Dekillsage, Marth does juggle Snake.

I never said Marth doesn't have to outplay Snake to beat him, but a lot of your reasoning here is faulty. How does Snake just "go high" if he's being juggled? Do you know what being juggled is? It means you keep getting sent back into the air with more and more damage, oftentimes without a jump. If Snake "goes high" at any point, he's just helping Marth's cause. Marth can hit through grenades even when you're turned around, I believe. Besides, you can't just 'react' to Marth attacking you. If you're going to turn around, you have to do so preemptively simply because Marth is within range to hit you. In that case, Marth can just grab you. He controls the RPS game up-close. That's where his major advantage is. You can't just bair off the ledge to gimp Marth, man. Marth's invincible upB will rip right through it ("if done right", in your own words). A +1 for Marth still requires him to put in a good bit of work.

You take a hit and then jump cypher. That stops the juggle and snake has plenty of ways to land after that. It's not like metaknight who can just shuttle loop me at any point during my jump or catch my landing with nado.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DDmQ3mnL2M&feature=player_detailpage#t=601s @ the up b thing. This isn't even the right way to do it and he still died because of it.

Marth doesn't control the RPS game. Turning around a pulling a nade -> block doesn't lose to grab because I can still spotdodge.... and up close snake wins unless the marth is mashing upb. Hell is marth ever jumps I can dash attack him or just stand still and wait. Marth doesn't do anything special to make me think this mu is in his favor.

 

[bubbaking]

@Shaya: What do you mean by that second line?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think he meant that, as Snake falls much faster than Marth, if Marth goes too high up his options get limited, Snake can most likely FFAD, land first and juggle Marth back.

 

[Shaya]

IIRC, Marths actual fast fall is faster than Snake. Or at least, very close to the point that if Marth is below snake and is Fast Falling then he'll get down there first. This ain't no Dedede/Fox bull ****.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snake just up bs every time he gets hit.

And Snake's pray that marth follows them in the air after he up-bs.

As I said, bad marths chase that juggle rather than waiting for Snake to be down to one of two options and destroying him from there. Snake landing with a grenade is close to the most abusable thing Marth has in the MU.

Watch MikeHaze against every snake bar ally (he got better at the MU) and how seemless and simple he completely and utterly dismantles them (just by standing there usually and swinging his sword once every 3 seconds). MikeNeko against Ally was not one lost from juggles, but one lost from snake actually needing to land (and when Snake lands against Marth he has no offensive options whatsoever at his disposal other than the HOPE that Marth hits his grenade... lol)

Depends on where we are. Ally's last stock vs mikeneko game 3 for example is an extremely bad spot to be in and I don't think there was anything he could do about it .

If we have the room we can land with c4's and b-reversals, but never near marth. Honestly having marth always throwing me on landing or hitting me before I land isn't that big of a deal as long as I can go high again. We only need marth to mess up once before landing and mounting our offense/defense.

 

[Shaya]

We only need marth to mess up once before landing and mounting our offense/defense.

You land in a completely defensive stature which has only three options. Knowing your grenade is there, you have an obvious time limit on your ability to spot dodge or shield drop, and are under pressure to maintain your shield for longer. Have you never played against someone who's just as precise with working with grenades as you are with a character who abuses every frame advantage that snake imposes on himself beautifully?