Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dekillsage]

You land in a completely defensive stature which has only three options. Knowing your grenade is there, you have an obvious time limit on your ability to spot dodge or shield drop, and are under pressure to maintain your shield for longer. Have you never played against someone who's just as precise with working with grenades as you are with a character who abuses every frame advantage that snake imposes on himself beautifully?

Would you consider mikeneko to be one of those players?

Edit: Lol'd @ beautifully. I use the word gracefully to describe marth xD

 

[Seagull Joe]

I like the idea of D3 being in his own tier. You forgot Lucario in your tier list Seagull.

You forgot Zelda and Lucario.

Your top tier is pretty nice actually XD

Fixed it.

And my list is basically the truth. Honestly, the characters I have that are interchangeable are the ones we always debate about. They are all about the same in terms of viability/results, but where they exactly go is what matters in a tier list. The next tier list will probably have exactly what mine had except the characters I have that are interchangeable will be ordered.

If we take a look at things, it's clear the top/high tier have great matchup spreads and results. The only character in top/high tier that tends to get countered by other top/high tiers harshly is . He's still a high tier character because he beats everyone that isn't a top/high tier character (Other then , , and ) and he is arguably one of the best pockets/alts to have in tourney.

 

[bubbaking]

Re-post it. Spread the glory. That list was pretty beautiful.

so yeah the tier list doesn't seem so clear right now below meta knight. ICs have had good results like Gheb or someone else posted but they are truly a gimmick character where you can get a lucky separation in the first 10 seconds in the match or something and then time them out. or the player could drop grabs. A lot of things have to go right for the ICs player and a lot of things have to go wrong for the other. You could be two stocks down but come back and beat the ICs just because you had messed up twice and got grabbed - at this point you decide you have to be more meticulous with your spacing, and it works.

You can't factor in the player dropping grabs when, at top level, the ICs player is not supposed to be dropping grabs at all. That's not the kind of player error you can count on. If it happens, you're extremely lucky, but a grab equals a stock more than 75% of the time against a top IC. There are also very solid strategies to avoid separation. They aren't a gimmick at all. Most MUs involving the ICs are actually the opposite of what you said. "A lot of things have to go wrong" for the ICs player, and "a lot of things have to go right" for the other. One grab equals a lost stock. Don't try to argue otherwise because it's not really debatable. One mistake can equal a grab, so therefore, one mistake can equal a lost stock. Even for 'even' or 'bad' MUs for the ICs, like Peach and Yoshi, this rule holds true. Yoshi has to always be on the run, Peach has to FC everything possible, etc., to stay out of the ICs hands. One slip-up and the ICs are now ahead.

In your own words but reversed, the ICs "could be two stocks down but come back" just because they landed a couple grabs. Even I was able to semi-consistently dthrow hand-off with the ICs when I dabbled with them. What about a top ICs main? There's also hobbling.

Marth should undoubtedly be at least top 5 based on results and on matchups.

MUs, yes, results, no. What results are you referring to other than APEX 2013? Please be specific. When I'm not lazy (see: me pulling up several tourneys supporting ZSS' rise to Top Tier), you won't be lacking for evidence in an argument if you're on my side. Humor me!

I don't see why not.

Because of the very reasons I gave you. <__<

Anyway, do you really think ZSS will rise that much, Bubba?

All I think is that ZSS will rise at least one spot above Wario and into Top Tier. I could care less about the rest. Remember that list of 3 changes we wanted in response to CJ's question? Well yeah, that's all I really care about.

 

[Shaya]

Tournament results aren't so readily kept these days as they once were.

Mikeneko has a gdlk reaction speed. It makes everything easier. At the very least it's easy to tell that he has a good grasp of grenades and pressure situations for Snake. Grenades are a skill curve (similar to bananas/items in general). If I'm better than you are at handling grenades in play then I would probably be winning a majority of matches. Here's the kicker though. I got to play a lot and generally had positive (FRIENDLY) records against most various leveled snakes in the US and the one guy who made me sad-face with Snake was PJ (the toon link main) because he never used grenades, ever. As in I lost to the spacing/power shields/reactions of jabs, tilts and dash attack. It made me come to consider how much grenades are actually hurting Snake (at least in the Marth mu) because of how much I play around abusing the loop holes of Snake using grenades.

To me they are Augustus Telegraphing Caesar level. But I do obviously realise people are better at grenades than I am. But when it comes to you seeing Snake holding a grenade (from the air), then you know from that point onwards that Snake is in a check position.

Rather than trying to continue the juggle in the air, Marth gets a lot more out of scaring snake into

 

[Seagull Joe]

You can just re-quote my post Bubba.

@Dark.Pch: should not be put higher then /. No character that loses worse then -2 to and should be put higher then two characters that are -1 with both of them. The tier list takes into account the matchup quite greatly as a side note.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I feel like needs to be moved up a tier (Into B tier) and one spot above . I think is also a B tier character that should be put below . I think is as good as // who he is above. deserves his own tier.

Below is my opinion of the tier list. Slashes represent that the characters are interchangeable in any order.

Spoiler

Top
S

A
/
B
//
High
C

Borderline
D
/// //
Mid
E
///
Low
F

Bottom
G

H

Olimar should stay in second. Diddy should definitely be above Snake and so should Falco. I agree that DDD should have his own tier. Nothing after DDD really matters

 

[Dekillsage]

When I played mikeneko in order to land I would just b reverse and then c4 reverse after he went to chase me. I can stop marth from getting to me by using my c4, aka using the explosion to stop marth from moving towards me as a land if he tried to hit me during a b reverse or thought I'd land with it. I think I even footstooled him @ some point in order to land.... but that might have been someone else lol. I'm sure most snakes don't know how to use grenades well in this match up(including myself) as the traditional way of using them gets shut down by marths fair or he just waits and grabs us as we land. Proper use of grenades when landing should still let us land fine though... considering they'd be cooked @ that point and you'd have to avoid them after punishing our landing. This doesn't mean I always landed, he would keep me off the the stage well and punish my landings but I only needed to land once in order to close the gaps in our set. Ftilt x2 now I'm winning again lol

 

[Shaya]

snake factor is always a factor.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

When will people learn that Snake is not that great?

 

[Dekillsage]

When will people learn that Snake is not that great?

He's pretty freaking great actually

 

[Dark.Pch]

You can just re-quote my post Bubba.

@Dark.Pch: should not be put higher then /. No character that loses worse then -2 to and should be put higher then two characters that are -1 with both of them. The tier list takes into account the matchup quite greatly as a side note.

Peach does not lose to snake -2. It be -1. And last I checked, those 2 are not the only characters in this game. So lets not ignore their match up spread against the common used characters in tournaments just to safe these space animals. IC and olimar are giving them seriously problems. And random easms running a muk at tourny are giving them serious problems.

Get off this image like MK is the only character you have to worry about, cause it is not. The second worst problem for Peach is Marth. Most common characters to be seen would be IC Olimar and Snake. Based on this and how the match up goes, peach would have a better shot at advancing then space animals. Snake being the only problem while you have 2 major ones.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

He's pretty freaking great actually

I guess he is the worst of the best

 

[NH Cody]

When will people learn that Snake is not that great?

when they feel like lying to themselves.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Peach does not lose to snake -2. It be -1. And last I checked, those 2 are not the only characters in this game. So lets not ignore their match up spread against the common used characters in tournaments just to safe these space animals. IC and olimar are giving them seriously problems. And random easms running a muk at tourny are giving them serious problems.

Get off this image like MK is the only character you have to worry about, cause it is not. The second worst problem for Peach is Marth. Most common characters to be seen would be IC Olimar and Snake. Based on this and how the match up goes, peach would have a better shot at advancing then space animals. Snake being the only problem while you have 2 major ones.

I can't speak fully for , but is even with / and is only -1. When I enter a tournament, the only character of top concern is . The only threat to in tourney is . Everything else is highly doable.

 

[Luco]

Yo, we should meet up to play P:M sometime!


The difference is that Ness is a surprisingly solid character who's 'gimped' by a stupid GR, a CG from DDD, and his recovery at times. Oli and Pika going even with Ness is like the ICs going even with Wolf; it makes sense when you actually consider the attributes of the lower-tiered char and the only reasons he's lower-tiered to begin with. Going even with DDD is just.....bad, though. I mean, DDD's definitely a High Tier char, but if you go even with him, you're definitely not a top 3 char. At any time, your performance in a tourney may end up 'gimped' from a DDD.

That only assumes that the DDD player is better than you. If you're a better player, you're fine. Even MUs shouldn't be the worry, it's negative MUs where you start to get scared. Well, that's my opinion anyway. Gonna check the rest of the thread haha.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I can't speak fully for , but is even with / and is only -1. When I enter a tournament, the only character of top concern is . The only threat to in tourney is . Everything else is highly doable.

Ok so for Peach and wolf, Peach takes down IC and olimar. I still have a better shot then you. And DDD is not even a threat anymore after I decided to just lame his ass out and treat him like I treat IC. I still have a better shot at advancing then you do. So better match ups and more options then you, wolf aint better. You are just gonna have to hold that.

 

[Seagull Joe]

.

 

[NH Cody]

I agree with everything SFP said before about Peach being worse than we think xI

 

[Cassio]

People might not consider a difference between a -1, -2, or -3 too big a difference, but on the lower ends of brackets it does in particular. Presenting a threat to 9B doesnt mean anything if youre going to lose to batwing99, whereas characters that are limited by a -2 MU or extremely uncommon -3's are at least capable of outplaying their opponents consistently in early bracket.

 

[Dark.Pch]

.

Guess I win this. Man you guys are not even a challenge to me anymore when it comes to this type of stuff. This was way too easy.

 

[Espy Rose]

Seagull won, actually.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Seagull won, actually.

No he did not. I made a point how Peach would do better then would and re responds to me like a child with the meta icon. What, he saying Peach gets put down by Meta? So does wolf and everyone else if that is what you are getting at here.

Again, this was too easy for me.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think Peach is just as good as Wolf. Wolf doesn't even do that well against MK at top level. Fox is better than both of them though

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think Peach is just as good as Wolf. Wolf doesn't even do that well against MK. Fox is better than both of them though

How is Fox better then both of them. Explain this to me.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How is Fox better then both of them. Explain this to me.

Because Fox does have an even match up against MK.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The weakest troll attempt I have ever seen in all my years of being in this community.

 

[Luco]

Because Fox does have an even match up against MK.

I hear he gets gimped by MK rather easily and thus isn't even.

That is, of course, only what I heard. Check the pika/MK MU explanation in the MU chart to see where I got that from.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Dark.Pch, Are you going to tell me that having a decent match up against some characters that most regions don't even have a top player for is better than having an even match up with the best and the most used character in the game?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Now I can't tell is this is trolling or if you seriously are.......

How in blue hell you come to the logic that Fox goes even with MK?

 

[ぱみゅ]

When played in like 3 stages the Fox-MK Matchup is very evenish, until Fox gets gimped.
He still has a very good chance to beat MK.

In any case, Fox goes evenish against, at least, MK, Snake and Marth. Those alone are maybe Peach's worst matchups, and pretty common.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

He can force MK to approach and make mistakes better than any other character in the game (except maybe Olimar). Unlike Snake, Fox can challenge MK in the air and he can stall him with his reflector. He kills MK at low percentages and has a grab release to u smash on him if he tries to jump when being pummeled.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Sorry but I am not buying this. Meta has no problem approaching fox if need be. What does fox do to get meta off him and deal with his moves. How is he winning air wars with him?

If that was the case i not see fox players running off to MK or IC when **** gets real.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAM2LJwvmGE

 

[Dark.Pch]

This does not convince me at all. Yui mostly got in on rain with these dairs rain was not being safe about. When Rain was in control it was hard for Yui to counter rain and get damage. Tha'ts mostly all I saw here. One solid way to go ham om MK while he has more options to go ham on fox.

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh my god I love Yui

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I tried but it seems you know more about this match up than Japan's best player

 

[Dark.Pch]

Never said I did. This vid does not point out why fox goes even. Again, pay close attention to how and why Fox would get his damage outside if laser camping and why. I pay attention in vids as to why people win and lose. I look at many things. Like how one takes and deals damage.

if you wanted to make a case, you should have showed me a vid of fox winning solid air wars on MK. As well as this reflector stuff. Fox will be a sitting duck and meta does not have to challenge it.

I know Peach vs MK very well. I beat rain when we played at APEX 2012. You don't see me sitting here saying Peach goes even with MK. The match up is still her worst. Im just not freaking stupid and put in that extra 200% to beat him.

 

[bubbaking]

In Japan, he does. Not sure about in America. Stop saying Olimar should still be #2. Results clearly show that ICs are stronger. MU spread supports this as well. Diddy and Snake are interchangeable. Nobody cares about them.

 

[Cassio]

What, he saying Peach gets put down by Meta? So does wolf and everyone else if that is what you are getting at here.

Dark Peach read my last post. Most characters may have a bad matchup against MK, but being -3 against MK is devestating bc you not only have to watch out for good MKs, but even the average ones. Whereas having a simple -2 or -1 at least youre able to outplay those below your skill level. This last weekend, a player named Maize beat Silly Kyle with Meta Knight. Meta Knight isnt even his primary secondary, yet he was still capable of knocking out one of the three best peaches in two sets.

 

[bubbaking]

Cassio, you LINKED me that match in the MU v3 sub-forum. You're ignoring the fact that Maize took a match with DDD. Moar DDD!!!!!!