Official BBR Tier List v7

[Dark.Pch]

Dark Peach read my last post. Most characters may have a bad matchup against MK, but being -3 against MK is devestating bc you not only have to watch out for good MKs, but even the average ones. Whereas having a simple -2 or -1 at least youre able to outplay those below your skill level. This last weekend, a player named Maize beat Silly Kyle with Meta Knight. Meta Knight isnt even his primary secondary, yet he was still capable of knocking out one of the three best peaches in two sets.

I rarely lose to average MK's anymore. Even in my prime back in the days I was hardly losing to average MK. And Mazie beating kyle does not hold effect to me. Not saying Kyle is he is bad (though knowing the typical image and egos people will assume the wrong way of me as usual and I get flamed for this.) The way he plays MK is bad. Kyle is not patient enough. Peach is a character that seriously needs to be patient. Her mid range options are garbage. Every character in this game can win air wars with her with lil to no struggle. 16 frame move is ass. Fastest thing she has in front of her is a nair (3 frames) and I have to be in your face for that. dair is 11 frames and leaves her exposed from the waist up. Full hop moves kill that BS play. Bair is ok but it works best if it is ground floated. The range on her bair leads to Peach being nearly as close as she would with a nair. If wiffed she is in danger of a hit. if a character stands in range of my fair I can't really push buttons. My options are slow in front of me nor will it reach. Just like peach has a blind spot when one is under her, she has one grounded.

Mk is gonna have a ball with this. peach can't go in on meta knight swinging nor throwing out moves hoping the fool will run into it. Peach can only go nutz if she forces a block. For her shield pressure is a seriously problem for people when on point. If Peach does not have a clear opening or force a block, she is not suppose to be floating to dair and all that 08 BS. That's gonna get snuffed out. I have to wait alot and try to get it slowly or force a reaction to close the gap and can control where I can counter attack OoS or force a block. If the player is flinchy, I can forced those and punish as well. This is how I got at Rain. Dude gave me lil to no freedom when we played. I had to wait it out alot.

Peach player seriously need to understand this. I don't say this **** to show off and come off better than the others. I could care 2 ****s about standing out and being noticed for fame. And people tend to take this the wrong way. But in matches they need to keep stuff like this in mind. Peach can not go rambo unleash you bait something you can punish or have them on block. She is just too easy to expose. if Kyle was more patient, I think he would have mop the floor with his MK.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Dark Peach read my last post. Most characters may have a bad matchup against MK, but being -3 against MK is devestating bc you not only have to watch out for good MKs, but even the average ones. Whereas having a simple -2 or -1 at least youre able to outplay those below your skill level. This last weekend, a player named Maize beat Silly Kyle with Meta Knight. Meta Knight isnt even his primary secondary, yet he was still capable of knocking out one of the three best peaches in two sets.

Its not always true this happens about how to interpret the numbers. I feel like those values only hold at all when both people tend to know match-ups in and out more than the usual person. Otherwise, you tend to see faults each character has that are easy to exploit that some people are simply not use to dealing with. Any new falco will likely get bodied pretty badly due to overusage of certain mechanics. These exploits can lead to some pretty hefty damage or stocks right away.

 

[Cassio]

Well the point isnt necessarily whether or not Peach can beat average MKs nor that specific set (its neither her nor there but i've seen slayerz struggle against a standard MK, then switch to ZSS and beat the same player easily and hes an extremely patient player), so much as Wolf and Fox do better vs MK and that is relevant even if all 3 still technically lose the MU. Also I dont mean to knock on Silly Kyle since Maize is a strong player.

Anyways, my view on that isnt a strong as seagulls or others but I'm trying to explain the point since it is relevant.

Eryx I agree, it should still be assumed both players know what theyre doing to an extent.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I struggle against basic Marths. Meta Is a worst Match up. And I'd rather fight him then Marth. Struggling is not always a sign of weakness. We struggle for reason I stated about Peach in general in my last post. I can't just freely push buttons and get away with it like alot of characters. Peach is in trouble against any character that gets in mid range with her and can throw out a punch. It's that freaking stupid. So playing basic and lazy is not gonna get me anywhere. If I wanna style on someone and be all aggressive, Thats why I play melee. I can get rewarded for doing at. Peach does not in this game.

If you are not patient and willing to bust your ass, Peach is not a character you should be using. And that's the hard truth. And this game competitive is so stupid that Peach players really don't have patients to go from match to match taking it easy. I tell this to all Peach players I teach. This is the first thing I tell them before I even begin to show them the ropes.

 

[smashkng]

You take a hit and then jump cypher. That stops the juggle and snake has plenty of ways to land after that. It's not like metaknight who can just shuttle loop me at any point during my jump or catch my landing with nado.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DDmQ3mnL2M&feature=player_detailpage#t=601s @ the up b thing. This isn't even the right way to do it and he still died because of it.

Marth doesn't control the RPS game. Turning around a pulling a nade -> block doesn't lose to grab because I can still spotdodge.... and up close snake wins unless the marth is mashing upb. Hell is marth ever jumps I can dash attack him or just stand still and wait. Marth doesn't do anything special to make me think this mu is in his favor.

Spot dodge isn't a safe option. It's very punishable by Marth if expected. Like for example if you predict that while you're running you just run behind Snake and pivot grab him. Marth's grab is **** against Snake cause it leads to severe juggles. And at close range I disagree about Snake having a significant advantage. Everything Snake does on shield that isn't grab (excluding projectiles) loses to shield (Ftilt is NOT safe on block and Dacus isn't either), then after shielding anything Marth can proceed to punish and put Snake into the air and then usually it leads to half his stock gone. Marth has several pretty safe attacks on block (spaced Nair, Fair or even Dtilt). Snake's grab start-up is also a bit slower than average (IMO it matters a lot against Marth cause Marth's aerials and Dtilt on block have a very low frame disadvantage). Like Shaya said Snake has no good landing options against Marth and unlike MK's sword Marth's can sometimes not blow up Grenades. Snake's Dash attack is good at the right times but you have to predict his landing (Marth has good air mobility and a good fast fall so it's not that easy, especially if he has his DJ left). Snake's juggles on Marth are no where as rewarding as viceversa.

From playing against lots of Snakes I feel like Snake's weight doesn't matter that much in this MU due Marth being able to rack up damage extremely fast and the juggles usually leading eventually to a kill move anyway. And not to forget, Marth wrecks Snake offstage. Snake has to rely on hard reads in this MU to try to balance out the fact that he can't really land at all while having very limited safe options for being a top tier. Like read Marth's approach and punish with his huge damage output with an Utilt that kills very early and read very well from Dthrows like Ally does. Playing very very smart is the only way for Snake to win against a good Marth IMO. I really think that's also why only Ally is right now doing something with Snake in top level of play (and he doesn't even solo main Snake).

 

[MeekSpeedy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv6RbEOlqRo

this is interesting

 

[PK Gaming]

When will people learn that Snake is not that great?

holy ****

the back and forth on this character is ridiculous

snake sucks, no he's good, he sucks & he's overrated, more like overpowered, etc

WHY CAN'T WE JUST CHOOSE A SIDE!

 

[NH Cody]

The smart people did pick a side.

the #2 in the game side.

 

[Jabejazz]

holy ****

the back and forth on this character is ridiculous

snake sucks, no he's good, he sucks & he's overrated, more like overpowered, etc

WHY CAN'T WE JUST CHOOSE A SIDE!

For these people, it's either black or white. God forbid there'd be some shades of grey. Most people with decent critical judgement will probably agree he's a great character, definitely not broken, and way far from **** tier.

 

[Luco]

Snake, to me, is just... a really good and solid character. Not no. 2 in the game for me but definitely up there, somewhere.

 

[Denti]

Snake...hard? LMFAO!


I don't think it could be considered a lucky bracket at all.

Given my bracket, RB would have lost in theory because he has a history of losing to Ally and DEHF. RB also lost to Zero who I am 1-0 vs. Both Denti and Myself took out Zinoto at Apex, where as RB lost to Zinoto.
Unfortunately I fought Denti in loser's so who knows what could have happened if he won, but fighting Kakera, Ally, and DEHF directly after, all players with great Oli experience, is far from lucky and truthfully, I doubt Denti could take them when his scene lacks a national level MK to spar against and not much good Falco experience to be had.
Fun fact: Every Olimar lost in R3 of losers to a MK player (RB to Zero, Denti to M2k, Me to Rain)

I love you Dabuz!

</3 BrOlimar's fighting in bracket is disgusting!

 

[pidgezero_one]

Snake...hard? LMFAO!

HE HE HE

 

[Illuvial]

Even I know Snake is a fantastic character, and I am new. His air game leaves a lot to be desired, but his Bair is good enough to compensate. Plus his ground game is just amazing!

 

[NH Cody]

that's right, his bair is amazing! Just run up to people and bair them in the face. they can do nothing about it.

 

[bubbaking]

That's just dumb, lolz!

 

[Illuvial]

that's right, his bair is amazing! Just run up to people and bair them in the face. they can do nothing about it.

Why must you mock me so

 

[bubbaking]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DDmQ3mnL2M&feature=player_detailpage#t=601s @ the up b thing. This isn't even the right way to do it and he still died because of it.

Hmmm, it looked a lot to me like the mortar hit Marth and messed up his recovery, not your bair. Besides, Mr. Eric's not that good...

 

[Dekillsage]

Hmmm, it looked a lot to me like the mortar hit Marth and messed up his recovery, not your bair. Besides, Mr. Eric's not that good...

nah, he got hit by bair.
Also people get better. He's made a lot of improvements since that year old video you linked me too

I don't understand how a guaranteed set up means less because its not done on a top player. I've done it to literally every marth I've played against when I remembered to do it and it's worked every time I did it properly

 

[bubbaking]

That didn't seem very guaranteed at all...

OK, I'll take your word on that. DarkFlame was also telling me he seems to have gotten better.....but that was from playing him on Wifi!

 

[infiniteV115]

That wasn't guaranteed (at least not that particular one). He was below the mortar for a long time, he could have just grabbed the edge before Snake (or just jumped onto the stage in the event that Snake got on the ledge earlier).
Like I get what you're saying, in certain situations if the Snake does it right it's a really good option, but Mr.E flatout put himself into that situation for no reason when he could have easily avoided that situation.

And I think worst case scenario, Marth can DB1/counter stall, get hit by the mortar intentionally and tech the stage and recover XD

 

[Dekillsage]

That wasn't guaranteed (at least not that particular one). He was below the mortar for a long time, he could have just grabbed the edge before Snake (or just jumped onto the stage in the event that Snake got on the ledge earlier).
Like I get what you're saying, in certain situations if the Snake does it right it's a really good option, but Mr.E flatout put himself into that situation for no reason when he could have easily avoided that situation.

And I think worst case scenario, Marth can DB1/counter stall, get hit by the mortar intentionally and tech the stage and recover XD

Mortar isn't part of the set up. The idea is if marth ever has to up b, bair will beat it every time. Video is just an example of how it works. If I had grabbed the ledge earlier I could have still done it or done jumping bair in reaction to his 2nd jump. I'll look over it after class @A@

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Mr. Eric is pretty ****in' talented by the way. Part of being a skilled player in a tournament setting is dealing with your nerves, which comes with time and experience, and even then, anyone can still choke. I never call a player that chokes "bad," just say they need to get comfortable with the idea of playing in a competitive setting, and against "big names."

Look, I don't care who you are or what character you're playing, playing against someone like Shaky, who is by all rights a top player with his character is daunting and scary. They're smart, comfortable, and experienced. You're just some random to them and they're going into the match fully intending to expose and embarrass you. It takes battle-hardening to shake that feeling off.

 

[infiniteV115]

Not to mention that (from what I saw) Mr.E didn't even take advantage of the GR followups (I know the infinite/CG wasn't legal at that tourney, but he didn't even GR -->other stuff), so kudos to him.

Edit: Yes Sage I'm aware that when spaced properly bair will hit Marth out of upB.

 

[NH Cody]

SFP, Mr Eric is horrible. Choking and not having the right mindset is part of skill.

It's Ness vs Marth, lolol. let's get real for a second.

 

[Dekillsage]

Purrrrfect -_^b

Also mr.eric would have probably won 2-0 or game 3 if he had used the grab release stuff. He didn't know about them and wasn't confident he could do them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SFP, Mr Eric is horrible. Choking and not having the right mindset is part of skill.

It's Ness vs Marth, lolol. let's get real for a second.

You are the worst ****ing poster in the history of Smashboards and that's coming from me.

 

[bubbaking]

I think Mr. Eric is pretty ****in' talented by the way. Part of being a skilled player in a tournament setting is dealing with your nerves, which comes with time and experience, and even then, anyone can still choke. I never call a player that chokes "bad," just say they need to get comfortable with the idea of playing in a competitive setting, and against "big names."

Look, I don't care who you are or what character you're playing, playing against someone like Shaky, who is by all rights a top player with his character is daunting and scary. They're smart, comfortable, and experienced. You're just some random to them and they're going into the match fully intending to expose and embarrass you. It takes battle-hardening to shake that feeling off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdxeAot7EiE
Hey, anything's possible, but he better have improved by a LOT if you're going to be saying all this about him. My initial impression of him was that he was a flashy, somewhat technical Marth who made some really dumb choices during his matches.

 

[_Kain_]

Why don't you go to twitch and watch the archives instead of trying to shameless plug yourself like your any good for beating him from 2012, a whole year ago

 

[bubbaking]

Au contraire, bon frere. I'm very aware that I'm not a good player, which is the point I'm making here. I've literally heard very little about him since that time and had no reason to believe he was 'on the rise' so to speak.

Edit: All I've heard about him (in a good manner) was from DarkFlame telling me that he seemed really good when he played him on Wifi, but that was on Wifi!

 

[_Kain_]

If your unwilling to research or go watch recent vids then why even try to speak on the subject? You sound so ignorant sometimes

 

[Dekillsage]

You're not going to hear about the non top level players from our region. Mr.Eric is always practicing and improving really quickly. Watch out for him

 

[bubbaking]

Whoever said I'm "unwilling"? All I said was that he seemed bad when I last played him (2012 isn't that far off, btw; we still cite evidence from then as relevant all the time), proving it with said matches, and that he must have improved a lot. You're just being presumptuous, assuming that I would be attempting to plug myself. If you knew anything about me at all, which I don't think you do, you'd know that I usually "plug" the people I play instead of myself.

Edit: @Dekillsage - Don't forget that I'm originally FROM your region, lolz! That's why I'm surprised that you put down Problem so quickly when I listed him as a potential high-level Snake. He seemed to me like one of those "non top level players from our region" who "you're not going to hear about". He was definitely a whole lot better than Mr. Eric when I last played them both. Again, anything's possible, but I'm just going off of my memories from then.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm very aware that I'm not a good player

Then why did you seem to get so offended when I referred to you as a low-mid level DDD main? XD

 

[bubbaking]

You know, I wasn't really offended, and I didn't think I conveyed myself as being so. "Bad" doesn't necessarily mean "low-mid" level, and I'd like to think from my play against a lot of 'decent' and 'good' players as well as some of my results that I'm more in the 'middle-mid' or 'high-mid' part of the 'mid spectrum'. I've been told several times by John12346, Nipps, and a lot of other players that I'm actually pretty good for a DDD. I don't believe it completely, because it's a personal strong belief of mine that I'm very NOT good due to bad choices, limiting mindsets, laziness, etc., but I think, at the very least, it means I'm not "low-mid level".

It doesn't matter, though. Think what you want. In the end, I only really care about how good I am in Melee (and P:M, to an extent), and I know for sure that, at worst, I'm a "high-mid" level Samus main in that game (both games). Brawl's fun though, bad but fun.

 

[RaptorTEC]

You're not going to hear about the non top level players from our region. Mr.Eric is always practicing and improving really quickly. Watch out for him

Very true. Don't sleep on NY/NJ randoms. Also Mr. Eric will be legit once he stops fishing for Fsmashes so hard all the time.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The real question is why are you on the matchup panel?

Mr. Eric is legit. He should've beat Shaky and probably could've if he just GR'd Dsmash or GR regrabbed a lot. Ohs wells. Some players are really honorable, which is respectable, but this game is not played the most honorably anyways.

As a comparison, Leon was also really close versus Shaky, but won barely from what Shaky told me. This indicate (To me at least) that Mr. Eric is pretty skilled.

SFP, Mr Eric is horrible. Choking and not having the right mindset is part of skill.

It's Ness vs Marth, lolol. let's get real for a second.

Hold your tongue simple peasant.

 

[NH Cody]

Sure, continue praising a random twelve-year-old who's somehow "amazingly talented" when he loses to Ness as Marth. have fun with that.

 

[Dekillsage]

Our definitions of mid level play is probably different.
I consider myself a mid level player, and numbers almost never beats me(that can't beat snake mental block 2 strong).
I beat problem too, which is why I don't consider him a potential high level snake. I've heard otherwise, but he doesn't really compete anymore. I wish he did though, his yolo fair was so gooood

 

[bubbaking]

The real question is why are you on the matchup panel?

Because I requested to be, lolz! When asked to provide it, I cited all the mid, high, and top-level experience I have in various MUs (I have a good bit, actually). Then I provided write-ups for the MUs I would like changed, detailing the reasoning, evidence, and results behind them. In the end, T_C said I could join. As far as I've seen, I've been one of the most active members of our panel too, as well as the one who's provided the most video evidence.


Why are a bunch of you (not you specifically, Seagull) in the BBR? Many of you aren't good. I suspect a few of you are even worse than I am (I could name names, too). I'm going to assume that superior skill isn't an end-all-be-all criterion.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Sure, continue praising a random twelve-year-old who's somehow "amazingly talented" when he loses to Ness as Marth. have fun with that.

First of all, I think people are over exaggerating. He's decent and needs to work on a few things but he's not bad at all. Secondly, it was Ness v Marth without the infinite so don't go crazy here. Lastly, don't call people randoms when they're probably better then you. :/