Official BBR Tier List v7

[ぱみゅ]

Funny how you think that Marth goes even with MK when I think only Mikeneko has ever shown anything even slightly suggesting that. Doesn't Marth also lose to Diddy? Regardless, I do agree that Marth actually has an A Tier spread, but if we were going mostly by MU spreads, Marth and Falco would replace Diddy and Snake in the top 5.

You should read the thing you quoted again.
I said he does even with everyone in A. Meta Knight is not A.
Marth goes even with every other Top Tier, but is held back by a couple, pretty obscure bad matchups.

 

[bubbaking]

What's with this "low-mid level" nonsense? I have results in my name!

Edit: @Kyokoro - Oh, you're right about MK. That's my bad, but what about Diddy? Did you miss that part of my post? Diddy's another A Tier char that Marth loses to.

 

[Dark.Pch]

It's not exactly easy to find out if top level Peach beats top level ICs by yourself if you're a low-mid level DDD main

He goes based on observation. Alot of people do when they think a match up would go one way or another since never played the match. Most could be fooled by top players easily cause of this.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ok ok fine
Bottom-level DDD. Happy?

He goes based on observation. Alot of people do when they think a match up would go one way or another since never played the match. Most could be fooled by top players easily cause of this.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Saying how him or anyone else for that matter would state how a match up goes if they never played it or know lil about it.

 

[infiniteV115]

:S So you're saying he SHOULD form his own opinions on the MU by observing the MU at top level? Cause you did just say a lot of top players don't know what they're doing/talking about.

If he shouldn't do that, then how is he supposed to form his opinion? Just theorycraft everything?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Edit: @Kyokoro - Oh, you're right about MK. That's my bad, but what about Diddy? Did you miss that part of my post? Diddy's another A Tier char that Marth loses to.

Based on the MU chart, Marth goes even against Diddy.

With that being said, I don't know what to think about Diddy anymore, he's lacking top-level representation and ADHD is being held down by his rustyness and a Bat plague. :/

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm saying he should learn for himself. Look up on stuff. Study the game or w/e expect they are not sure of. One could watch vids of said match up. But That would not mean the match was played correctly from one side or from both sides.I usually question would could have been done. If I was him, and wanted to learn about a match up, I would learn all that I can about both characters in general. Then see how their options can harrass each other. Then watch vids. Also get some info from top players. From here generate an idea of how a match up goes.

Point is, getting info solo on top players is not always the best thing. cause if one could seriously do that, then the tier list and match up chart would not be a complete joke. Top players can be as wrong and as lazy as your general smasher. Top player does not mean you always have the right of word. M2K went on at one point that diddy beats MK cause he kept losing to diddy, and thus, MK should not be banned for that reason. You tell me if you actually bought that logic.

 

[pidgezero_one]

holy **** I actually find myself agreeing with you

 

[Dabuz]

Maybe. Though having a snake @ their level would make our non-mk mains lives much harder.(this includes dabuz)
/

Snake...hard? LMFAO!

Relieved to see that someone could catch my intent here. My point still stands, though. Olimar's not the Ally of Olimars. He's not so much better (or even better at all) than every other Oli to have out-placed them all by that much, especially Rich Brown. Looking at his bracket, he WAS particularly lucky, way 'luckier' than Salem. At the beginning of his bracket, he got to fight and beat two other Olis (who may have been worse than him), Logic and Denti, two Diddys (definitely not a hard MU for Oli), Lie and Zinoto, a Snake (advantageous MU for Oli), Ally, and a MK, Kakera, losing to Rain in Winners. AFTER, he'd already out-placed every other Oli in the bracket, he beat DEHF (the very first disadvantageous non-MK MU he had to play in bracket at all) and then lost to Otori. If people want to comment on how 'easy' Salem's bracket was, this is definitely one to talk about as well. This analysis also justifies my labelling Dabuz as an outlier. He knocked out most of the other good Olis and only really had to face MKs and even and advantageous MUs other than that. That alone allowed him to severely out-place his top Olimar brethren.

I don't think it could be considered a lucky bracket at all.

Given my bracket, RB would have lost in theory because he has a history of losing to Ally and DEHF. RB also lost to Zero who I am 1-0 vs. Both Denti and Myself took out Zinoto at Apex, where as RB lost to Zinoto.
Unfortunately I fought Denti in loser's so who knows what could have happened if he won, but fighting Kakera, Ally, and DEHF directly after, all players with great Oli experience, is far from lucky and truthfully, I doubt Denti could take them when his scene lacks a national level MK to spar against and not much good Falco experience to be had.
Fun fact: Every Olimar lost in R3 of losers to a MK player (RB to Zero, Denti to M2k, Me to Rain)

 

[bubbaking]

Ummm, didn't you lose to Rain.....in winners?

Edit: I see what you're saying Dabuz, and I guess the moral of the story here is that people should stop saying ANYONE had a lucky bracket as an argument unless it's crazily and incredibly clear and obvious. That goes for me too, of course.

Guys, guys, it's all right! I KNOW not to only trust the word of top-level players, but I just find that when many of them agree on something, the point they're arguing for is somewhat compelling.

Based on the MU chart, Marth goes even against Diddy.

Based on the MU chart, you're lying:

 

[Dark.Pch]

And this is why you don't go by what people tell you and find out **** for yourself. See what happens when people listen to me? Now I want a cookie.

 

[Gardex]

Would I be revealing too much if I told Bubba to take a look at the v3 discussion, which is a place he has access to, btw?

 

[Dabuz]

Edit: I see what you're saying Dabuz, and I guess the moral of the story here is that people should stop saying ANYONE had a lucky bracket as an argument unless it's crazily and incredibly clear and obvious. That goes for me too, of course.

Pretty much, just getting into bracket is a challenge, and after a couple wins in bracket, you're playing people at a top regional level/ low national level no matter what.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Would I be revealing too much if I told Bubba to take a look at the v3 discussion, which is a place he has access to, btw?

................................forget the cookie............

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, this is literally you right now.

How did you do that? o_0

 

[infiniteV115]

With the help of our beloved friend and Ontario's finest Zelda player, John Madden.

 

[bubbaking]

Would I be revealing too much if I told Bubba to take a look at the v3 discussion, which is a place he has access to, btw?

Yes, I could do that, but Kyokoro said "based on the MU chart" which infers the current official chart we have now. Any MU values already decided upon have not been implemented yet and will be done so in the future. It would be better if he had said something like, "Marth will no longer have any disadvantageous Top Tier MUs in the next chart." That's how I've been saying it, anyway. Also, if Kyokoro is really speaking from that angle (which you seem to think), then he has to put everything into context. Marth may be gaining an even MU against Diddy, but he's also LOSING all of his current top and high tier advantageous MUs.

In other words, Marth's MU spread is actually becoming WORSE overall. In light of the whole picture, Kyokoro should have cited this as well when talking about Marth's MU spread influencing his tier list position (if he really was citing his future MU values as you infer).

Edit: Well, most of those new evens have already been agreed upon, but ALL of them have been suggested. Therefore, Marth's MU spread is definitely getting worse, and it may get a LOT worse, but a little of the 'worsening' is not guaranteed.....yet.

 

[Gardex]

I'd take more even matchups if it meant less disadvantages imo.

BTW, I wasn't really looking deep into it, I just felt that it was kinda silly to bring up a picture of the entire matchup chart when it's not far from becoming replaced by a new one with different ratios.

 

[bubbaking]

He's only losing one disadvantageous MU. He still loses to MK and DDD.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm curious as to how a match up chart is made. How do people go on about match ups. What is used and talked about. I am not in the match up panel even though people voted for me cause I am not one of the cool kids. So I would not know.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snake...hard? LMFAO!

Come at me bro

 

[Iota]

Well perhaps those characters beat Waro (in the air) as well. I ask you to remember the last time we played Wario vs G&W on Wifi (not that it means much). Besides, you may think it's easy to get past DDD's bair (it isn't if he spaces it well, varies its timing, and goes for fair > bair frame-traps), but I think it's easy to just trap and grab Wario's landing.

Wario beats or goes even with the three specific examples I listed. If you're going to list a wifi friendlies (which if I recall we both agreed there was a lot of lag in them) then I feel obliged to list my slightly winning to even record vs Penta.

Varying the timing to your bairs should not effect how we react. Your options for varying it are much more limited than our options for punishing or baiting your bair. In theory craft, bair does beat all of our horizontal and diagonal aerial approaches. Realistically however, keeping up the proper spacing and staying mentally prepared for our options is very, very difficult against a dynamic character like Wario. I'm not arguing that this MU isn't incredibly difficult for Wario; you have a lot of BS on us if we screw up. I just don't think it's realistic to say a pocket D3 has a better chance than a pocket MK because of your simpler tactics.

Marth may be gaining an even MU against Diddy, but he's also LOSING all of his current top and high tier advantageous MUs.

What? Does this mean that Marth now goes even with Wario?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Cheeeeeezz....

"According to the MU Chart v3, Marth goes even against every character who is in the A Tier of the current Tier List. Meaning that a good Marth player is, in fact, a serious threat for any of them in a Tournament. His bad Matchups (I think it's only DeDeDe) lose to other Top Tiers, making them not viable specially several rounds advanced a tournament, as consequence not often seen, and thus not real threats for Marth's viability as a whole.
Basically, it's more likely to have several Marths placing well in a tournament than have several Marths taken out by his bad Matchups".

Is that wording any better?

 

[Iota]

I understood what Bubba meant. I just wanted to tease him for the wording. Thank you for the more detailed explanation though Kyo.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I feel like needs to be moved up a tier (Into B tier) and one spot above . I think is also a B tier character that should be put below . I think is as good as // who he is above. deserves his own tier.

Below is my opinion of the tier list. Slashes represent that the characters are interchangeable in any order.

Spoiler

Top
S

A
/
B
//
High
C

Borderline
D
/// //
Mid
E
///
Low
F

Bottom
G

H

 

[Iota]

I like the idea of D3 being in his own tier. You forgot Lucario in your tier list Seagull.

 

[infiniteV115]

You forgot Zelda and Lucario.

Your top tier is pretty nice actually XD

 

[Iota]

Seagull's top tier is awesome cause it didn't drop Wario down to high tier.

 

[| Big D |]

Nice list Seagull.

 

[NH Cody]

Below is my opinion of the tier list. Slashes represent that the characters are interchangeable in any order.

Spoiler

Top
S

A
/
B
//
High
C

You're very silly. Dedede doesn't need his own tier.

 

[BlueXenon]

I feel like needs to be moved up a tier (Into B tier) and one spot above . I think is also a B tier character that should be put below . I think is as good as // who he is above. deserves his own tier.

Below is my opinion of the tier list. Slashes represent that the characters are interchangeable in any order.

Spoiler

Top
S

A
/
B
//
High
C

Borderline
D
/// //
Mid
E
///
Low
F

Bottom
G

H

I like the top tier. I dont understand why Ness is placed so low on tier lists, he seems like a good character when I watch top ness'.

 

[Gardex]

DDD isn't only in his own tier.

He's the high tier

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I was agreeing with everything in Seagull's list up until he put both Captain Falcon AND Jigglypuff in H tier

I also like how his F tier is nearly identical to mine, only his has Luigi (who, I admit does fit into "Forgettable" tier very well )

 

[bubbaking]

I'm curious as to how a match up chart is made. How do people go on about match ups. What is used and talked about. I am not in the match up panel even though people voted for me cause I am not one of the cool kids. So I would not know.

Dark.Pch, I dare you to look me in Bison's eye and tell me that I am one of the "cool kids".














Then do the same to my glaring smiley.

 

[infiniteV115]

Below is my opinion of the tier list. Slashes represent that the characters are interchangeable in any order.

Spoiler

Top
S

A
/
B
//
High
C

Borderline
D
/// //
Mid
E
///
Low
F

Bottom
G

H

I also like how his F tier is nearly identical to mine, only his has Luigi (who, I admit does fit into "Forgettable" tier very well )

Lucario and Zelda clearly belong in Forgettable tier

 

[NH Cody]

Lucario is pretty forgettable...

 

[Illuvial]

Seagull Joe, I don't think ZSS is high B tier material, low B tier sure, but high B tier is pushing it. I also think that Pikachu is high or even top B tier material. Toon Link is high tier worthy in my opinion, and not having Regular Link in H tier is a bit confusing. I would also put Ganondorf are high H tier.

Great list though! I will probably make my own soon!

 

[bubbaking]

He didn't put ZSS in high B. He put him in an interchangeable order with Marth and Pika. That's what the "/" marks denote.

I personally think Seagull's list is one of the most accurate tier lists I've ever seen. With that kind of tier list, the labels would probably have to be changed, and it would actually resemble Melee's list a bit more. The current A Tier should be renamed to S Tier, leaving MK in SS or S+ Tier, and all the other tiers would move up a letter. S Tier (plus MK) would be the sole Top Tier (just like in Melee). A would be High (just like in Melee). B would be 'Borderline' (just like in Melee, since B Tier in Melee is just ICs who could arguably be seen as being the 'borderline' chars). C would be Upper Mid (they are almost LITERALLY just as viable as Doc, Ganon, and Samus in Melee which make up the Upper Mid a.k.a. C Tier in Melee). D would be Lower Mid. E would be Upper Low. F would be Lower Low. G would be Bottom. All of this is exactly how the tier list looks like in Melee, with the exception of MK, and in all honesty, the characters in each tier pretty much match in viability for both games. With this, I am also boldly making the statement that, without MK, Brawl is NO MORE IMBALANCED than Melee is.

Edit: However, I maintain my belief that Melee is a fine game and Brawl is a bad game simply because of various noncompetitive aspects, such as tripping and random input delay.

 

[NH Cody]

He said "in no particular order" for within each tier.